Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Master Raven]

This topic has gotten so boring lmao. It's like the same repetitive arguments over and over and over and over and over. I wish people made more arguments like Pierce because I think that was one of the best posts I've read in this so far.

Phantom, clicking the numbers will let you see who voted after you vote.

 

[Kitamerby]

You know what would be nice, though? If the MK is allowed to have a choice. Perhaps something simple, like giving up counterpicking and/or stage banning rights for the ability to play as Meta Knight (Opponent would be able to choose both stages after the random, thereby preventing Rainbow Cruise insta wins and other shenanigans on other MK-favorable stages.)

This way, the Meta Knight mains are allowed to stay, and they're still the best character in the game, but they can't automatically win a set anymore simply because they are so great on certain counterpicks, and by negating their stage bans, it gives other characters a viable chance, as some characters have very even matches with Meta Knight on certain stages (usually Final Destination). Simple methods like these probably should be looked into before a ban.

 

[Thinkaman]

I would say yes.

Here's a question for you: if Corneria is banned, should it be ok for someone to counterpick it if his opponent agrees?

Warning: If you say "no", you are admitting to everyone that you are an ideological troll who is just out to force people from playing on Corneria for the benefit of your own beliefs.

Warning: If you say "yes", you are admitting to everyone that you only think Corneria should be banned because it is unplayable, when it obviously isn't and everyone knows it.

O_O

In other news, I'm still leaning towards "don't ban" though it's hard to come to a decision. Inui's post that was quoted recently was pretty convincing, I also think it's likely that Snake can do well against Meta Knight. You can't get gimped if you don't go offstage.

Hehe... You like making me eat my own words, eh?

I don't think Corneria should be banned, as terrible as the stage is for me. If someone said they wanted to counter-pick it, I would in most cases agree to allow it under the following conditions:

-I am permitted to change my personal ban to Corneria if I so choose. (If Corneria is legal I usually personal-ban it...)
-Norfair, Brinstar, and Jungle Japes are legal counter-picks. (If we're playing in a tourney where no characters have strong counter-pick stages, why would I let you play Corneria?)

I like to think I'm not a hypocrite. I don't like Corneria at all, and I celebrate the idea that I will have to play there less... but I've never advocated banning it and even argued AGAINST the ban, despite HATING the stage.

 

[Radiation]

LOL

"metaknight moved from neutral to neutral/counter"

even if it's like 65 to 35 (vote-wise, which it's not), the SBR probably won't change anything

they didn't add any rules about planking to their official ruleset (besides its implied ban through the "stalling" clause, which, like, was already there and didn't stop people from planking) or add the ledgegrab rule as a TO-specific one even though it clear it almost won the poll by a MAJORITY (not a plurality, which it one a great deal more than) and vs. the pro-planking side the anti-planking side had around ~73% of the votes, which is freaking huge but I guess not big enough to address specifically by name

or maybe that poll is too fresh

or maybe there's a post about it

I'm probably being hasty, maybe they're still discussing it. But it seems weird to not hold off on a new ruleset to briefly discuss an issue that the entire community can form a pretty firm consensus on. And with MK being one of those issues where he always loses by ONLY like ~60% max, it's relatively hopeless for the pro-ban getting any closure. If he lost by like 90% it might be considered at some point, but it would still take a while I guess.

but it seems to me like these polls don't matter, this is an ok debate topic though

[edit: anyone who thinks corneria shouldn't be banned has obviously never played against Ness, or anyone with a strong uthrow, or anyone with a good camp]

 

[zhao_guang]

This argument is horrible. anti-banners make legit points, points like this one and ones that are ultimately the same as this one are HORRIBLE.

First of, its anecdotal, which is not admissable in a debate anyway.

Second, it has nothing to do with the central argument of the pro-ban side. (ok, the pro-ban side minus first time scrubs who post whining in this thread)
The pro-ban side argument is that the we have reached a point where the only correct character to pick as the one you will practice and play in a tournament is Meta Knight. This itself is arguable, but the minimum criterion for this to be true is that he either a) has only good matchups across the board or b) has good matchups, and any number of even matchups with characters whose matchup spreads are significantly worse.
These conditions mash the counterpick system to paste, and also damage character variety as those of us who play to win all pick meta knight en masse.

Luigi winning a ChuDat Biweekly has nothing to do with that. There is no reason to believe that the Luigi player couldn't have won the tournament even more comfortably if he played and practiced Meta Knight. There's no debate. He simply outplayed his opposition in a way that drowned the characters anyone was using into the background. It doesn't challenge that Meta Knight has a broken matchup spread. You're not even trying to challenge it, you're also conceding that Meta Knight >> Luigi.

tl;dr, players beating players is not admissable evidence in a debate about whether a certain character can beat every other character in the game.

I was just throwing out that when someone wins a tournament Luigi and gets CPed every match with Meta Knight, which is considered a tough matchup for Luigi, then the so-called "broken character" doesn't look so broken.

 

[Anther]

Hehe... You like making me eat my own words, eh?

I don't think Corneria should be banned, as terrible as the stage is for me. If someone said they wanted to counter-pick it, I would in most cases agree to allow it under the following conditions:

-I am permitted to change my personal ban to Corneria if I so choose. (If Corneria is legal I usually personal-ban it...)
-Norfair, Brinstar, and Jungle Japes are legal counter-picks. (If we're playing in a tourney where no characters have strong counter-pick stages, why would I let you play Corneria?)

I like to think I'm not a hypocrite. I don't like Corneria at all, and I celebrate the idea that I will have to play there less... but I've never advocated banning it and even argued AGAINST the ban, despite HATING the stage.

I think I'm inclined to agree with your hate of corneria, I killed someone with a nair at 60%... off the TOP of the screen with pikachu, and was subsequently killed by a mk downsmash at 80 x.X.

 

[1048576]

I'm sure M2K would three stock my MK with Ganondorf. That means Ganondorf ***** and MK sucks, right?

Above guy has bad DI, lol.

 

[Delvro]

I was just throwing out that when someone wins a tournament Luigi and gets CPed every match with Meta Knight, which is considered a tough matchup for Luigi, then the so-called "broken character" doesn't look so broken.

I don't know... I'm more inclined to believe that boss is broken and should be banned because he's too good

 

[judge!]

while i dont really think mk has any reason at all to get banned.......it would let me focus on my wario/falco alot easier and possably use them in tourneys. The game might be more fun if mk was TEMP banned so others could catch up. Ino for one im really sick of useing just mk. Been workin on wario a lot latly and i wouldent mind switching. But ino there are mk players in midwest that will run timers on me....its impossable to do anything with wario.


cant type =) dont mind

 

[judge!]

i wish that mk players wouldent play say stupid and run timers etc. fighting against a NORMAL style mk is pretty dang fun. Hell there are tourney matchs INO i could win if i wanted to run the timer. but I dont because that just makes brawl not fun at all. I will accept my loss and move on. But while i love my felow midwest mk's what they do to try and *proove* what mk can do makes no sense and just means there lazy to try and actually get skill. But mroe or less we should see how big tourneys like apex and genesis turn out.

 

[Wrath`]

I have not faced a **** MK, just a good to near pro MK, which is still annoying, but beatable. so I don't care if he is banned or not.

 

[Scinn]

umm will this be official the whole voting thing?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i wish that mk players wouldent play say stupid and run timers etc. fighting against a NORMAL style mk is pretty dang fun. Hell there are tourney matchs INO i could win if i wanted to run the timer. but I dont because that just makes brawl not fun at all. I will accept my loss and move on. But while i love my felow midwest mk's what they do to try and *proove* what mk can do makes no sense and just means there lazy to try and actually get skill. But mroe or less we should see how big tourneys like apex and genesis turn out.

Fighting good MKs really are alot of fun. It becomes more or less a high speed sex battle than anything else. I can appreciate some high speed sex.

But i agree that i think more regions need a lot better MKs in order to help progress the meta game.

 

[Dantarion]

Okay, since the discussion is just going in circles, I would like to hear everyones opinion on this aspect of banning MK.

We all agree MK is the best character.
We almost all agree that MK is beatable.
We all agree that there are a lot of people playing MK.

In terms of the game, everything will be fine if we don't ban MK. There will still be people playing other characters and placing high, such as Ally, Fiction, DEHF, Anther, etc.

However, one thing I feel like not a lot of people are talking about is the drain that a MK-centric game will have on the community. I know a lot of people complain about losing to MK's in situations where they really felt like they should have won. I am not talking about pros here, I am talking about the other 90% of players.

Some people are getting agitated enough to lose interest in Brawl. Could a temporary MK ban be helpful for the community in more than just a game-balancing way? Discuss.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

i got a better idea.....
/thread

 

[Kage Me]

However, one thing I feel like not a lot of people are talking about is the drain that a MK-centric game will have on the community. I know a lot of people complain about losing to MK's in situations where they really felt like they should have won. I am not talking about pros here, I am talking about the other 90% of players.

If they should have won, they would have won. Since they didn't win, we can only conclude they shouldn't have won the match.

Let's tell them that.

 

[Gamegenie222]

No, Mk should not be banned because sure it will be easy to wave our fingers around and declare him banned but that will be too easy and won't be fun at all. If you surely want to destroy him, you have to destroy him piece by pathetic piece by using characters who take skill to destroy anyone with like C. Falcon or Ganondorf and you are able to accomplice that, victory will be bitter sweet.

 

[Fatmanonice]

umm will this be official the whole voting thing?

*busts out into loud, wall shaking laughter for a good five minutes*

No, this is pretty much here so we can putz around for week while steping on as many toes as possible before the thread is closed based on the assumption that it's "too early to tell" and "we should wait until the next big tournament". We'll then meet up again in probably 2-3 months after a big tournament to do the whole song and dance all over again.

 

[DrakeRowan]

Some of the arguements and posts in this thread just kicked the word respect right out the window.

 

[KRiMz0N]

of course he should be banned

but that doesn't mean we should ban him

it's kind of hard to ban an entire character, and it'll just make you guys look uncool

 

[Jigglymaster]

*busts out into loud, wall shaking laughter for a good five minutes*

No, this is pretty much here so we can putz around for week while steping on as many toes as possible before the thread is closed based on the assumption that it's "too early to tell" and "we should wait until the next big tournament". We'll then meet up again in probably 2-3 months after a big tournament to do the whole song and dance all over again.

QFT.

:jigglypuf - agrees with this. These polls haven't made a single outcome even when Yes has won every single time.

 

[Exceladon City]

Some of the arguements and posts in this thread just kicked the word respect right out the window.

I'm pretty sure that word was disregarded as soon as this thread was made.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Id just like to point out that this iteration of the poll has a similar yes vote to the last 2 polls.

However, with the recent inclusion of the not sure option, the No vote has taken a Significant decline.

 

[_Keno_]

Even if MK does get banned officially, its up to your local tourny runner to ban him or not. Rules and bans on this forum are more of guild-lines, why are some people getting so worked up? I really do doubt that any of the tourny runners in my state will ban meta.

 

[Exceladon City]

They should add an "I don't care" option. Watch how fast those results shoot up.

 

[Kage Me]

They should add an "I don't care" option. Watch how fast those results shoot up.

People who don't care should just abstain from voting altogether. It should be stressed in the OP that "Not sure" isn't the same as "Don't care", though... I have a feeling that a lot of people are mistaking the two terms.

 

[Nic64]

yeah, I didn't vote because I don't personally feel strongly in favor of either side, I just come here and nitpick arguments that I perceive to be fallacious <_<

 

[MachinegunNorm]

People who don't care should just abstain from voting altogether. It should be stressed in the OP that "Not sure" isn't the same as "Don't care", though... I have a feeling that a lot of people are mistaking the two terms.

i voted not sure because i wasn't sure. not that i didn't care. i really just don't know if he should be ban or not.

 

[Exceladon City]

People who don't care should just abstain from voting altogether. It should be stressed in the OP that "Not sure" isn't the same as "Don't care", though... I have a feeling that a lot of people are mistaking the two terms.

I mean I'll voice my opinion about the situation at hand but I don't care either way. If MK get's banned, that's one less annoying match-up to put up with. If he doesn't get banned, then looks like I'll have to practice embarrassing MK mains with Fox. If I had to choose one option though, it would be no.

 

[PK-ow!]

People should stop talking about the poll. It's irrelevant. What matters is the thread. People who matter will be reading the thread. Make that count.

Me, I don't think I will ever vote on it. What do I think should happen? If you ask me this, all I can think of is what I want to happen. And what I want to happen is for something to change. Anything. MK to blow a leak (someone find a weakness). Other characters to step up. Or for someone to break MK forty ways from Easter Friday. Just something to get us out of this ridiculously painful middle ground.

I don't care which way it goes. But I want him banned only if there was no doubt about his brokenness, and I yearn for this game to be one with something like the dynamic balance it so nearly has.

I just want one of them.

 

[Yanoss1313]

No, Mk should not be banned because sure it will be easy to wave our fingers around and declare him banned but that will be too easy and won't be fun at all. If you surely want to destroy him, you have to destroy him piece by pathetic piece by using characters who take skill to destroy anyone with like C. Falcon or Ganondorf and you are able to accomplice that, victory will be bitter sweet.

lol, good post, GANONDORF IS DA SHIZ!

 

[Zodac]

this is better than the tier list topic

 

[Bonehimer]

People should stop talking about the poll. It's irrelevant. What matters is the thread. People who matter will be reading the thread. Make that count.

Completely disagree, what matters in this thread is the poll. Most if not all arguments have been argued to death back and forth in circles in this and the last two threads. The poll is important as it shows that a significant drop in "no" due to the "Not Sure" option.

The only thing i see the posts in this threads accomplish is to keep the thread bump in the first page lol.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

The poll is important as it shows that a significant drop in "no" due to the "Not Sure" option.

No. This assumes that all of the people who voted "not sure" this time were voting "no" last time.

 

[Brinzy]

I mean I'll voice my opinion about the situation at hand but I don't care either way.

That would be incredibly pointless and possibly even damaging in some situations. This poll may not mean too much, but if you ever go to vote for senators or presidents or something, please don't just pick someone because "you don't care." Just stay home.

idc = no vote plz

 

[Eddie G]

That would be incredibly pointless and possibly even damaging in some situations. This poll may not mean too much, but if you ever go to vote for senators or presidents or something, please don't just pick someone because "you don't care." Just stay home.

idc = no vote plz

Seconded.

Argue for a side or don't bother arguing at all.

 

[Nic64]

That would be incredibly pointless and possibly even damaging in some situations. This poll may not mean too much, but if you ever go to vote for senators or presidents or something, please don't just pick someone because "you don't care." Just stay home.

idc = no vote plz

he didn't vote, he just said he'd voice his opinion, and people who don't care are probably the most reliable in that regard as 90% of everything else in this thread is biased and meant only to serve someones agenda one way or the other

 

[Yuna]

Absolutely nothing has surfaced since we last debated this issue to make me believe Meta Knight should be banned. Please bombard me with valid arguments if you possess any.

Completely disagree, what matters in this thread is the poll. Most if not all arguments have been argued to death back and forth in circles in this and the last two threads. The poll is important as it shows that a significant drop in "no" due to the "Not Sure" option.

The only thing i see the posts in this threads accomplish is to keep the thread bump in the first page lol.

This poll has only been up for 2 days. Many users do not even frequent this part of the boards, so chances are a jillion people who will vote "No" just haven't seen this thread yet.

 

[Eddie G]

Where have you been mister? >.>

 

[gm jack]

Thank you, for not understanding a thing I said! :D

I didn't say anything about believing in yourself. Just that many people thing that they are dragged down by things on paper. WHEN GOOD PLAYERS CAN GO HEAD TO HEAD IN A MATCHUP AND NEARLY BEAT AN MK IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT HOW MUCH PLAYER SKILL IS NECESSARY. If I were WRONG, then everyone who reads up on their character and DOES EVERYTHING THE PAPER SAYS THAT THEY CAN would all be elites. There is a REASON that there are people who are the best low tier mains, like Malcolm. THEY KNOW THEY CAN DO BETTER. They MAKE UP STUFF ON THEIR OWN. Look at M2K's blog. He started by copying off of the first good MK main, then MADE UP HIS OWN STUFF.

If you can find a Ganondorf who can beat a half decent Sheik, be my guest. It's a 90:10 match up (the most biased in the game?). While skill can help disadvantaged match ups, they are based on reality. If a character has a match up against it's favour, it is going to need to seriously outperform the other player to stand a chance.

That said, I don't feel banning a character is the way to go. Meta knight is the match up a lot of high level players are going to spend studying. It may just take one character to discover one technique that can completely shut down MK. Otherwise, quit whining and try and find a way to fight MK. It may take to most ragingly boring and spammy tactics to do it, but as soon as MK has at least one fight with a disadvantage, he can go back to being a good character with great players, rather than some deity to be feared.