Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Asdioh]

What nintendo SHOULD do(which they wont) is actually ****ING PATCH A GAME, and nerf MK's recovery or any of his other moves to make him worse. While they're at it they can imporve Captain Falcon and others.

Seriously, World Of Warcraft PVP is one of the most played games on a competitive pro level, and Blizzard patches the game ALL THE TIME.

Who cares what changes, people will adapt.

Nintendo needs to fix their game.

EDIT:

Or someone should create something similar to Brawl+, except don't change the game mechanics. Just balance out characters according to community input.

Stop editing your post XD

The example of your Olimar friend changing to MK is what happened to a lot of people. A lot of people that main MK now don't do it because they want to play MK, but because he's their best chance of winning, and they're tired of losing to MKs.

I'm sure the same thing happened in Melee, when people realized they couldn't win tournaments with their characters, so they switched to a top tier. The difference with Melee is that there is (slightly) more variety among the top tiers, and some of them have bad stages/counterpick characters blah blah. Debatably.

The reason the MK ban debate is taking place is because he is the ONE character that almost everyone goes to if they want to increase their chance of winning. He is not unbeatable, but people are tired of seeing him everywhere and nobody wants to watch MK dittos in winner's/loser's/grand finals one after another.




...anyway, your WoW comparison is pretty invalid. Blizzard receives money from paying customers on a monthly basis, and this is part of the reason they patch the game so much, they care about their customers.

Brawl was not made to be competitive, and they already got their money from us so they could care less.

It's too bad so much in life depends on money.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then I suggest this:

"Or someone should create something similar to Brawl+, except don't change the game mechanics. Just balance out characters according to community input."

Seriously, it would fix a lot of things.

That would be good.

The thing is, changing the way characters moves behave would be more difficult to implement because the mechanics of the game have changed drastically in comparison to melee.

yeah you can change somethings like trajectory of a Dthrow but nothing drastic.

 

[pure_awesome]

Whether it be Brawl+ or just a slightly modified version of Brawl, it's a different game.


"Play a different game" is not a valid way to fix a game.

 

[PCyph]

Things that could be done in another version include:

fixing infinite cape
fixing mortar slide(i know I'm a Snake/Diddy player and love it but if we're fixing things its too broken)
nerf EITHER shuttle loop or mach tornado
maybe take a jump or two away from MKs recovery.

and improve Jiggly, Captain Falcon, and Link a slight bit

I would say Ganon too but I think if you tried to fix him you'd make him too good because of his power.

 

[Brinzy]

Anyone else notice that the "Yes" option is just below half now?

Deathcarter, I may or may not formulate a detailed response later. I don't think I have any major qualms with your argument...

EDIT: Oh crap, it's at 49.95% at the time of this edit.

 

[Asdioh]

Don't bother making suggestions here for patching Brawl. It's not going to happen. Go check out Brawl+ if you are looking for more balance. Otherwise, regular Brawl is staying the same.


You know how Brawl+ gets a lot of hate? I bet nobody would think anything of it if the original release of Brawl resembled Brawl+...

 

[PCyph]

Whether it be Brawl+ or just a slightly modified version of Brawl, it's a different game.


"Play a different game" is not a valid way to fix a game.

It's not THAT different of a game,

thats like saying "playing with items off 3 stock 1 v 1 is a different game"

they're changing it to make it COMPETITIVE.

Even if its a different disc its just a fixed version of an older game.

 

[Brinzy]

they're changing it to make it COMPETITIVE.

The game was designed to limit competitiveness on a level we're thinking of. I highly doubt that, even if they were fully aware of the problems that Brawl faces, they would listen to the group of people they deliberately wanted to slap down.

 

[PCyph]

Don't bother making suggestions here for patching Brawl. It's not going to happen. Go check out Brawl+ if you are looking for more balance. Otherwise, regular Brawl is staying the same.


You know how Brawl+ gets a lot of hate? I bet nobody would think anything of it if the original release of Brawl resembled Brawl+...

The problem with that is that Brawl+ isn't being recognized by major tournies as the game to play,


Yes I want the game to be fixed, but I also need a large quantity of events to attend.

 

[pure_awesome]

It's not THAT different of a game,

thats like saying "playing with items off 3 stock 1 v 1 is a different game"

they're changing it to make it COMPETITIVE.

Even if its a different disc its just a fixed version of an older game.

I'll tell you what, we'll compromise.

You promise to never suggest that we legitimately consider anything similar to Brawl+ as the competitive standard, and if Nintendo ever releases an updated, competition-focused version of Brawl, I'll help you with the laborious task of getting everyone to switch.

 

[PCyph]

The game was designed to limit competitiveness on a level we're thinking of. I highly doubt that, even if they were fully aware of the problems that Brawl faces, they would listen to the group of people they deliberately wanted to slap down.

I'm not 100% clear on what you're trying to say here,

can you elaborate on the "they's" and stuff, I'm a bit confused. lol

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Anyone else notice that the "Yes" option is just below half now?

Deathcarter, I may or may not formulate a detailed response later. I don't think I have any major qualms with your argument...

EDIT: Oh crap, it's at 49.95% at the time of this edit.

To be honest the poll should mean nothing. The people voting may not even have good reasoning and could be voting just to vote.

If anything the SBR should actually read the arguments in this thread and see what side is making more sense.

 

[Mecakoto]

Whether it be Brawl+ or just a slightly modified version of Brawl, it's a different game.


"Play a different game" is not a valid way to fix a game.

I agree with this completely.

Things that could be done in another version include:

fixing infinite cape
fixing mortar slide(i know I'm a Snake/Diddy player and love it but if we're fixing things its too broken)
nerf EITHER shuttle loop or mach tornado
maybe take a jump or two away from MKs recovery.

and improve Jiggly, Captain Falcon, and Link a slight bit

I would say Ganon too but I think if you tried to fix him you'd make him too good because of his power.

Everything you have said is either pointless or wrong.

1) The infinite cape IS BANNED at any good tournament. No need.

2) Too broken? Explain your logic.

3) Either Shuttle Loop or Tornado? They are both rather over-powered and both would need to be nerfed.

4) His recovery is still insane even without 2 of the jumps.

5) What about the other characters? Why only those 3?

6) He has power, yes. But he will always be slow. Speed > Power generally.

7) None of this matters since this likely will not happen anyways.

 

[PCyph]

I'll tell you what, we'll compromise.

You promise to never suggest that we legitimately consider anything similar to Brawl+ as the competitive standard, and if Nintendo ever releases an updated, competition-focused version of Brawl, I'll help you with the laborious task of getting everyone to switch.

Oh, you know, you are so ****ing right.

Because Brawl+ is annoying to you means every single thing REMOTELY similar is going to have the exact same problem.

Alright, for the next two years run around like a chicken with your head cut off trying to find ways to beat MK when all that needs to happen is shuttle loop needs to be nerfed.

 

[Asdioh]

Part of the reason Brawl+ isn't being played is because people are afraid to hack their Wiis. If it wasn't acquired in an unconventional way it would be a LOT more popular, I'm sure. Like, if you could just go on Brawl's wifi, and "download" a codeset from a friend, and be able to play Brawl+ after that, almost everyone that plays Brawl would have at least tried it by now.

Changing regular Brawl to include just a few changes, even if it's something simple like "no random tripping," is essentially making it Brawl+. It's Brawl, plus modifications.

People still aren't going to want to modify their Wiis for a "more balanced" Brawl. And even if they do, the "few changes" for balance are going to be disputed, and people are going to want different buffs and nerfs etc. and it will just cause a bigger rift in the community.

 

[PCyph]

I agree with this completely.






Everything you have said is either pointless or wrong.

1) The infinite cape IS BANNED at any good tournament. No need.

2) Too broken? Explain your logic.

3) Either Shuttle Loop or Tornado? They are both rather over-powered and both would need to be nerfed.

4) His recovery is still insane even without 2 of the jumps.

5) What about the other characters? Why only those 3?

6) He has power, yes. But he will always be slow. Speed > Power generally.

7) None of this matters since this likely will not happen anyways.

1) if you're already fixing the game why not fix a glitch?

2) See above, if you're going to fix characters fix hem all.

3) Alright then do both of them?

4) Mine as well make it a little worse.

6) I'm not sure about this, I just think it would be easy to mess up fixing him.

7) At least we agree on something.

 

[PCyph]

Part of the reason Brawl+ isn't being played is because people are afraid to hack their Wiis. If it wasn't acquired in an unconventional way it would be a LOT more popular, I'm sure. Like, if you could just go on Brawl's wifi, and "download" a codeset from a friend, and be able to play Brawl+ after that, almost everyone that plays Brawl would have at least tried it by now.

Changing regular Brawl to include just a few changes, even if it's something simple like "no random tripping," is essentially making it Brawl+. It's Brawl, plus modifications.

People still aren't going to want to modify their Wiis for a "more balanced" Brawl. And even if they do, the "few changes" for balance are going to be disputed, and people are going to want different buffs and nerfs etc. and it will just cause a bigger rift in the community.

This does make a lot of sense,

Nintendo should embrace the competitive aspect of their games and put the wii store to good use.

 

[pure_awesome]

Oh, you know, you are so ****ing right.

Because Brawl+ is annoying to you means every single thing REMOTELY similar is going to have the exact same problem.

Alright, for the next two years run around like a chicken with your head cut off trying to find ways to beat MK when all that needs to happen is shuttle loop needs to be nerfed.

You want me to go out, buy an SD Card, SD Card reader, and Twilight Princess, find the relevant codes, and void the warranty on my Wii so that we can nerf Shuttle Loop a little bit?

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Technically speaking, the Wii literally does not have the hardware to give out downloadable content.

Here is the article: http://hackmii.com/2009/02/why-the-wii-will-never-get-any-better/

 

[PCyph]

You want me to go out, buy an SD Card and an SD Card reader, find the relevant codes, and void the warranty on my Wii so that we can nerf Shuttle Loop a little bit?

No, I never said that,

if you saw the post above yours you'd see that I myself wouldn't even want to do that.

Also, I know this is never going to happen, but I'm talking about if nintendo did it or at least allowed a third party to release a legit game modification/game via the wii store.

 

[B!squick]

Technically speaking, the Wii literally does not have the hardware to give out downloadable content.

See Guitar Hero: World Tour, noob.

 

[PCyph]

Technically speaking, the Wii literally does not have the hardware to give out downloadable content.

Here is the article in case you are interested: http://hackmii.com/2009/02/why-the-wii-will-never-get-any-better/

I guess this is true.

idk. It's all so confusing

Maybe make a forced handicap on MKs?

I don't know.

Leave it the way it is I guess, it's unfixable, and banning IS kind of dumb.

EDIT:

What about a "no choosing metaknight more than once/twice in a best of 3" or something type rule?

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Edit: Nevermind

Ignore this post.

 

[pure_awesome]

No, I never said that,

if you saw the post above yours you'd see that I myself wouldn't even want to do that.

Also, I know this is never going to happen, but I'm talking about if nintendo did it or at least allowed a third party to release a legit game modification/game via the wii store.

So you're saying that, hypothetically, if Nintendo decides that they're going to take a game that they specifically made with the intention of not being competitive and discouraging a competitive scene, and they're going to make it competitive, then this would be a reasonable solution to our problem?

Well, you're right. If that happens, we wouldn't have to argue about MK. Congratulations, I completely 100% agree with you.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Part of the reason Brawl+ isn't being played is because people are afraid to hack their Wiis. If it wasn't acquired in an unconventional way it would be a LOT more popular, I'm sure. Like, if you could just go on Brawl's wifi, and "download" a codeset from a friend, and be able to play Brawl+ after that, almost everyone that plays Brawl would have at least tried it by now.

Changing regular Brawl to include just a few changes, even if it's something simple like "no random tripping," is essentially making it Brawl+. It's Brawl, plus modifications.

People still aren't going to want to modify their Wiis for a "more balanced" Brawl. And even if they do, the "few changes" for balance are going to be disputed, and people are going to want different buffs and nerfs etc. and it will just cause a bigger rift in the community.

Anyone who is actually intelligent and want B+ would ask questions and will sometime realize that homebrew doesn't brick your Wii. (Unless you install it in a really ******** way of course)

 

[PCyph]

So you're saying that, hypothetically, if Nintendo decides that they're going to take a game that they specifically made with the intention of not being competitive and discouraging a competitive scene, and they're going to make it competitive, then this would be a reasonable solution to our problem?

Well, you're right. If that happens, we wouldn't have to argue about MK. Congratulations, I completely 100% agree with you.

Again I never said they would do it, I just said they should.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This does make a lot of sense,

Nintendo should embrace the competitive aspect of their games and put the wii store to good use.

Games aimed solely at competitive gamers don't sell well.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Games aimed solely at competitive gamers don't sell well.

Guilty Gear?

 

[Mecakoto]

The fact of the matter is that if Nintendo did make a codeset download-able from the Wii channel, I'd be more then willing to stem out an extra $20 USD for it. It would keep my Wii safe and it would be Nintendo-approved.

The second fact of the matter is that it'll be hard to get through to Nintendo.

Games aimed solely at competitive gamers don't sell well.

Street Fighter?

 

[Asdioh]

Leave it the way it is I guess, it's unfixable, and banning IS kind of dumb.

Now you're getting it


MK won't be banned simply because this debate is taking place. It would have been clear a long time ago whether he was banworthy.

I think I'm going to vote "no" to the ban, and hope that GENESIS results, and whatever those other big tournaments are, look decent. As in, a non-MK taking first place, and not too many MKs in the top 8.

If there are too many MKs in the top 8, then oh well, whatever.

Spoiler

In the meantime I'll hope that Brawl+ becomes more popular and accessible because it looks like a helluva lot of fun, and it also is striving to be more balanced.

 

[PCyph]

Games aimed solely at competitive gamers don't sell well.

Very true,

in a perfect world very much unlike ours, they'd release a game that ONLY 1v1s with no items could be done(to reduce the amount of storage) and fix the characters via the wii store.

Then we'd all pay 20 bucks for it, and they'd make money for minor changes.

nevr gonna happen though

 

[HowaitoKumaSan]

This reminds me a lot about the ****storm Wizards of the Coast went through with the card "Skullclamp." It affected the metagame so much, they were forced to ban it. And by "affecting the metagame," I'm talking about every single deck either abusing Skullclamp, or every deck planning to take out the opponent's Skullclamp.

How does this relate in any way? Well, let's look at MK. He's sorta really ridiculous, but he's certainly not unbeatable. People expect to play MK, sure, but are you really expecting to fight MK in every round of every tournament? Of course not. MKs WILL be there, but in any given tournament I enter, I don't expect to see one MK after another, because the community is more diverse than that. I plan on fighting characters that tend to have a better match-up against me (a Lucario main, despite any evidence to the contrary). When a MK DOES show up, I'm not happy about it, but I take my licks and try my hardest with all of the knowledge I have. Sometimes I steal one; other times, I get knocked to Losers.

Banning Metaknight? I'm still on the fence, but I also think a "soft ban" would be easier to swallow than just killing him off completely.

 

[pure_awesome]

Again I never said they would do it, I just said they should.

From our point of view, yes, they should.

But you have to understand that they're a business, first and foremost. Making a game like that would essentially market to the select thousand of us who play Brawl competitively. It would lose them money just so they could cater to a market that they don't care about anymore. So from their point of view, they shouldn't.


Anyway, I promised myself that if this thread ever exceeded two consecutive pages of talking about making hacks the standard, I would leave and never look back. So.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Guilty Gear?

It's a general trend with a few exceptions, but it's true.

 

[PCyph]

The fact of the matter is that if Nintendo did make a codeset download-able from the Wii channel, I'd be more then willing to stem out an extra $20 USD for it. It would keep my Wii safe and it would be Nintendo-approved.

The second fact of the matter is that it'll be hard to get through to Nintendo.

This.

10char

EDIT:

Also what about making MK only be chosen once per 3 set, or never twice in a row? I'd just like opinions on that cause I don't know what to think of it

 

[sMexy-Blu]

This.

10char

EDIT:

Also what about making MK only be chosen once per 3 set, or never twice in a row? I'd just like opinions on that cause I don't know what to think of it

Just make MK's use Wiichuck.

 

[Asdioh]

Also what about making MK only be chosen once per 3 set, or never twice in a row? I'd just like opinions on that cause I don't know what to think of it

No. This idea has been discussed before.

This is either an all or nothing thing, there is no "temporary ban," no "don't let him use his Specials," no "only once per set."

If any of those were necessary, then he would need to be straight out banned, not handicapped.

As it stands, I don't think he needs to be banned. I think the game would be more fun if he wasn't in it, but banning him would cause too much *****ing.

 

[PCyph]

Why does it have to be all or nothing?

if you could only choose hmi once per set then one game would prolly be Meta v. Meta.

then the other 2 games are different characters which = way more diversity.

Or maybe you try to beat meta without a meta so you can use your meta against a nonmeta.


Just a thought.

Lemme say meta one more time........meta. :D

 

[Kamikaze*]

When people think of Mk people think of how broken he is or how often he may end up placing high in tourrnies, or how much his "whorenado" spam *****. They think about the people that get beat on by Meta Knight.

Think about the people that main MK. I'm pretty sure there are people that have used him way before the tier list even came out. I am also pretty sure that they have put in the practice to get good with him. Think aboutthis. If you ban meta,some people will lose all 13 months of hard work they've put into him. Especially people who only main MK. The you'd be like... forcing hella people start all over with a new charcater.

How unfair is that?

 

[PCyph]

Restrict meta to 1 or 2 games a set.

Then, if metagames catch up and we find hes not THAT broken you can lift the restriction.

He was still there, people still prepared for him

no harm done.

MK mains will have to use an alt sometimes

boo-hoo.