Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[TLMSheikant]

Lol seriously this will lead nowhere. >_> The antiban keep giving the same illogical reasonings no matter how much we prove them wrong and vice versa its a never ending argument.

 

[pure_awesome]

This entire debate literally boils down to:

"Can we ban a character just because we feel like it?"

There's no solid reason to ban MK. At all. The community is growing every month and MK's presence isn't going to kill it for more than a handful of people that will be forgotten within a few months. Whether he has amazing tools, whether he's a god character, whether Shuttle Loop is overpowered or Whorenado is gay or Uair is too fast, he's not dominating tournaments to the extent that we need to ban him or the community will be dealt a massive blow. This may change in the future, but as of right now, this is what the situation is shaping up to be.

The majority of the community seems to recognize this, and seems to understand that while they want MK gone, it's not necessary.

Yes, it would suck for the people who don't want MK gone. Yes, it would suck for people like M2K who have put hours, days, weeks, into studying and learning their character. But unfortunately, the nature of our community dictates that we go with what the majority of relevant members of the community want. I practiced a ton with items when the game first game out, since I thought they would be legal. When they weren't, it was a huge blow and slowed me down alot. I lagged behind the rest of the community. But it's what the majority of the community wanted. I just spent an entire week last month working out the kinks to a Falco infinite on Corneria, only to find out that it's now banned. But the majority wants it banned. Majority rules. I'm sorry you think it's wasted time, but I can guarantee at least some of the things you learned from studying MK will carry over to whoever your new main ends up being. Hell, most of these guys already have **** secondaries. I've heard M2K's DDD is top 3 in the US.

So through this entire debate, we need only focus on two actual truths:

1. Metaknight is broken enough that the majority of the community wants him banned, simply because the competitive scene would be more interesting that way.
2. Metaknight is not broken enough that, at this point, it is necessary to ban him to ensure a healthy future for the competitive scene.

If we can all agree on those two points, and I think most of us can, then the only thing that we need to answer is:

"Can we ban a character just because we feel like it?"

I say no. Edreese says yes. Yet, we both want him to be banned.

Discuss.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I say yes pure awesome. And since when has it been proven that mk isnt broken? No bad matchups, no bad stages ring a bell to ya?

 

[_Keno_]

Lol seriously this will lead nowhere. >_> The antiban keep giving the same illogical reasonings no matter how much we prove them wrong and vice versa its a never ending argument.

Quoted for the truth. Few people are going to switch sides, even in the opposition of a completely valid arguement.

I for one wish I didn't vote against the ban now, after seeing a lot of the Pro-bans points. If only the mods didn't mind switching a person's vote.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Sheikant stop calling him a bannable character due to no bad stages/bad characters, it makes you look ignorant. That's not the sole basis for banning a character. This is less about a difficulty beating a character, and more about making things more interesting even though it wont change who's winning the tourneys. That's NOT how rules are ****ing made.

 

[pure_awesome]

I say yes pure awesome. And since when has it been proven that mk isnt broken? No bad matchups, no bad stages ring a bell to ya?

It doesn't matter anymore. We don't need to work off theorycraft anymore.

Through all his no bad match-ups, through his breaking the counterpick system, through his no bad stages, through his Shuttle Loop and his Tornado and his Dsmash and his Dair and everything else that looks broken about him, he's not dominating tournaments badly enough that he needs to be banned. You can think he's broken, that's fine, but tournament results say that he's not broken enough that he needs to go.

We don't need to look at his character traits to compare him to other characters. We know how he compares to them because we have tournaments that show us how.

I for one wish I didn't vote against the ban now, after seeing a lot of the Pro-bans points. If only the mods didn't mind switching a person's vote.

Pro-Ban is getting alot more love from high level players, probably because they're more zealous about it.

If M2K came in here in the next page and post a wall of text on why he shouldn't be banned, everyone would sway to the anti-ban side.

It's just how the human brain works. We're very vulnerable to propaganda.

 

[BOB SAGET]

stop arguing, your not going to make a difference. we have no control on wat the **** will happen. the main point pro bans make is that MK should be banned because he has no counter pick. where do u get this crap from. the matchup list where noobs make the decision. BS. another thing the probans say is tha MK wins all the tournaments. well maybe everyone uses MK because all those noobs say he has no counter pick, so his metagame developed already. temp ban wont do crap. once u ban him its not gonna stop the people who main to practice further with him. so if u guys r whinning because u cant beat metaknight. its your ****in fault. so stop being a little suck and figure out a way to beat him!

 

[XienZo]

I think all the SBR should look at are the arguments, not the actual poll, since the poll doesn't tell us much.

 

[Deathcarter]

Maybe a match-up number isn't best (though I use them because it's a short, simple way to get a point across), but while match-ups are different, I personally think you could've used a better example.

Rather than Kirby vs. ICs, a character that is pretty unique in its own right, how about Kirby vs. Zelda? While you say that there are things that can be done to the ICs to beat them which don't apply to MK, the same argument can be made but changed up a bit. Zelda, on average, kills Kirby earlier than MK does. She also does not take Kirby on in the air or use the Tornado, but instead she forces him to get close and she overrides tons of his attacks. There are similarities and differences between these two match-ups, but the point here is that Zelda has characteristics about her that gives Kirby harder times in some areas and easier times in others.

Kirby can't exploit the same things on both characters, but he can, bottom line, find an exploitation. MK does have exploitable traits, such as lacking a projectile (so you don't have to worry about projectile spam, at least), being light, and moving slowly in the air. They may not be weaknesses, but Kirby can take advantage of stuff like this. I don't see why match-ups have to be insanely different for MK to the point where they're special. The same could be argued for the ICs or Olimar.

Maybe I did not emphasize this point at all (I most likely did not emphasize it at all), but MK does limit diversity more than any other top tier (probably not all 7 of them put together though) simply because characters lower than Wario really do not have anything that can counter or diminish the effectiveness of MK's strengths or exploit his disadvantages. Snake has explosives for tornado, Falco can actually camp MK to a decent extent, Wario takes very good advantage of both MK's air speed and light weight, G&W is very hard for even MK to edgeguard though he has trouble approaching, and that is only the surface. The lower characters don't have strengths that counter MK's advantages while at the same time not getting destroyed by MK's strengths.

The difference between MK and other top tiers is that MK does not exploit ALL of the lower characters' downfalls to a horrible extent while another top tier usually does it better though other top tiers are often less effective than MK.

Peach's sucks against MK and Marth.
Pit sucks against G&W and Meta Knight.
Luigi sucks against DDD, Snake, and MK.
Wolf sucks against DDD and MK.
Fox sucks against Pikachu, MK, Kirby, and G&W.
Ike sucks against DDD, Falco, Olimar, and MK.
Shiek sucks against MK, Ice Climbers, and Luigi.

EVERY character lower than C tier sucks against MK. They suck against other top tiers and the departure of MK will see an increase in other top tiers, but they will still become more plentiful (depending on the region) becuase the top tiers will never increase in numbers of highly skilled mainers at the same rate. This is for one reason only, everyone of them except DDD and G&W have enough tools to get past their disadvantaged top tier matcuhps. There is no reason for a Falco to pick up a secondary for Kirby and G&W when he can deal with them with some effectiveness. Same with most of the other top tiers. As such, highly skilled players of these characters (any other player you can beat in a 70:30 disadvantage if you have enough skill so they are not included), will play those who are viable and suit their playstyle as they will have enough skill to overcome a slight disadvantage. The thing here is that these players will not be plentiful enough to the point that an prediction of how many mains the other top tiers would gain, would not be VERY suseptible to skewed results.

 

[noahbaby94]

Every forum shows mk with >50% win rate he has no weaknesses yes he lacks a projectile but he can approach and **** the crap out of anyone anywhere.

 

[A1lion835]

I haven't actually read most of this thread (I will soon...), but I'd like to point something out.

27.5% of tourney entrants use meta knight. That's almost 10x as much as the "average character", so his win rate is definitely going to be higher than others. If 27.5% of tourney entrants used captain falcon, you had better bet that Falcon would be doing some major tourney winning.

 

[BOB SAGET]

im sick and tired of everyone being a ****in baby. grow up! MK is the best character. everygame has a best character. saying he has no counter pick is BS.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I haven't actually read most of this thread (I will soon...), but I'd like to point something out.

27.5% of tourney entrants use meta knight. That's almost 10x as much as the "average character", so his win rate is definitely going to be higher than others. If 27.5% of tourney entrants used captain falcon, you had better bet that Falcon would be doing some major tourney winning.

You really shouldn't exaggerate things like that, it makes it hard to like, you know, take you seriously. Especially after that amazing slippery slope argument that has been shot down a thousand and five times.

 

[noahbaby94]

im sick and tired of everyone being a ****in baby. grow up! MK is the best character. everygame has a best character. saying he has no counter pick is BS.

Well where the hell is he counter pick then?

 

[pure_awesome]

im sick and tired of everyone being a ****in baby. grow up! MK is the best character. everygame has a best character. saying he has no counter pick is BS.

And I'm tired of being nice and ignoring your posts.

You're clearly either very young and strongheaded or blissfully ignorant of how a competitive scene is run. Metaknight does not have any counters. He does not have any counterpick stages. There are pros in here that have spent more time testing Smash than you have spent awake. And not one of them thinks Metaknight has any counter. The best any of them will give is a maybe 55:45 disadvantage. There is no agreed way to put Metaknight at a disadvantage and, barring any major overhaul or discovery in the metagame, there never will be.

You need to stop posting whenever an idea pops into your head and start doing what forums were designed for you to do: Read, and learn. You've single-handedly derailed this thread, oh, it must be somewhere around 15 times now because people, for some reason, have to keep stopping to address your nonsense. Stop.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

OMG the same **** has been said a million times already there is virtually nothing new to be discussed here it is just people requoting themselves or flaming others and is getting nothing acomplished. Someone please close this thread

 

[spudzalot]

im sick and tired of everyone being a ****in baby. grow up! MK is the best character. everygame has a best character. saying he has no counter pick is BS.

Dude you still dont know how to give good points AT ALL. All I have seen you say is that people on the pro-ban side are a bunch of babies. That is not a good point and you arent helping the debate.

Drop it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

And I'm tired of being nice and ignoring your posts.

You're clearly either very young and strongheaded or blissfully ignorant of how a competitive scene is run. Metaknight does not have any counters. He does not have any counterpick stages. There are pros in here that have spent more time testing Smash than you have spent awake. And not one of them thinks Metaknight has any counter. The best any of them will give is a maybe 55:45 disadvantage. There is no agreed way to put Metaknight at a disadvantage and, barring any major overhaul or discovery in the metagame, there never will be.

You need to stop posting whenever an idea pops into your head and start doing what forums were designed for you to do: Read, and learn.

Do you know who you are ****ing talking to right now. He'll call your post flaming and continue being a *******.

 

[A1lion835]

You really shouldn't exaggerate things like that, it makes it hard to like, you know, take you seriously. Especially after that amazing slippery slope argument that has been shot down a thousand and five times.

Okay, that's an exaggeration...reading this entire thread.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Okay, that's an exaggeration...reading this entire thread.

I'm talking about throughout every time that has been brought up EVER. Come on now, catch up with the rest of us.

Either way, it's a ludicrous claim, slippery slope arguments with very little basis shouldn't be done period, regardless of how much of this stupid thread you've read.

 

[Messiano]

I honestly feel that you should take the polls from outside of NY, Because me and a few friends (all well known smashers) were having a discussion about Meta and it seems when you look at the players outside of NY it all the really good ones are meta mains or have a meta in their pocket it almost seems (and could be over analyzing) that NYC is one of the few if not only places that even know that the roster consists of more then on character. Not that it is that crazy just saying if you look at the numbers excluding NY i think the results in who mains meta will be even more ridiculous and might open some more eyes, You also have to consider how many people who voted NO are people who might not have been as successful in Melee for various reasons and feel like they have a edge due to their maining meta (and yes i know if your good your good if your bad,,,, well your bad....)

 

[A1lion835]

I'm talking about throughout every time that has been brought up EVER. Come on now, catch up with the rest of us.

Either way, it's a ludicrous claim, slippery slope arguments with very little basis shouldn't be done period, regardless of how much of this stupid thread you've read.

I'm reading the thread so I know what arguments have been put forward for this >.>

 

[MBlaze]

Wow.... this is just turning into a huge flame war... just wait for the two tourneys, ****. >_>

 

[Nic64]

And I'm tired of being nice and ignoring your posts.

You're clearly either very young and strongheaded or blissfully ignorant of how a competitive scene is run....

it's called a troll account, you were doing the right thing by ignoring him o_O

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I'm talking about throughout every time that has been brought up EVER. Come on now, catch up with the rest of us.

Either way, it's a ludicrous claim, slippery slope arguments with very little basis shouldn't be done period, regardless of how much of this stupid thread you've read.

His original post wasn't even mentioning the slippery slope argument at all. It was merely stating that since like 1/4 of the competitive community uses MK, of course he's going to place well.

 

[Deathcarter]

im sick and tired of everyone being a ****in baby. grow up! MK is the best character. everygame has a best character. saying he has no counter pick is BS.

Plese refrain from posting unless you have a credible point to add that actually pertains to the discussion at hand and will have the effect of moving it along. Your horribly articulated one sentence posts prevent anybody from focusing on any actual worthwhile discussion and I implore that you, assuming you have the intellectual capacity, construct any future posts assomething that actually benefits the discussion by adding something constructive and is not a mere rehash of the same fruitless efforts made by imbeciles such as yourself in a vain attempt to impede the transfer of opinions and facts constituting the main discussion in this thread. No degree of stupidity will stop this thread as it has proven with consistency to be able to withstand the ignorance displayed throughout the past 3 days and hold out without so much as a scratch on its impressive facade.

tl;dr, post more intelligently. please

 

[pure_awesome]

Eh. It's out of my system now. Let's all go back to blissfully ignoring him.


I'd still like to know whether or not people think it's okay for us to ban a character because we want to ban him.

Assuming the following is true:

1. 90% of the community wants MK banned.
2. MK is barely broken.

Would we be justified in banning MK?

 

[XienZo]

I'm reading the thread so I know what arguments have been put forward for this >.>

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197057
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205886
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200718

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

I haven't actually read most of this thread (I will soon...), but I'd like to point something out.

27.5% of tourney entrants use meta knight. That's almost 10x as much as the "average character", so his win rate is definitely going to be higher than others. If 27.5% of tourney entrants used captain falcon, you had better bet that Falcon would be doing some major tourney winning.

Where did this stat come from? I'm not even arguing with it, it sounds plausible; I'm just not sure where it came from... It seems too specific to be made up.

 

[Asdioh]

I just want to add some fuel to the fire by asking a simple question...

If Meta Knight is banned, should it be okay for a player to play as MK if his opponent agrees?

Warning: If you say "no", you are admitting to everyone that you are an ideological troll who is just out to force people from playing as Meta Knight for benefit of your own beliefs.

Warning: If you say "yes", you are admitting to everyone that you only think MK should be banned because he is unbeatable, when he obviously isn't and everyone knows it.

Q.E.D.

I would say yes.

Here's a question for you: if Corneria is banned, should it be ok for someone to counterpick it if his opponent agrees?

Warning: If you say "no", you are admitting to everyone that you are an ideological troll who is just out to force people from playing on Corneria for the benefit of your own beliefs.

Warning: If you say "yes", you are admitting to everyone that you only think Corneria should be banned because it is unplayable, when it obviously isn't and everyone knows it.

There are pros in here that have spent more time testing Smash than you have spent awake.

O_O





In other news, I'm still leaning towards "don't ban" though it's hard to come to a decision. Inui's post that was quoted recently was pretty convincing, I also think it's likely that Snake can do well against Meta Knight. You can't get gimped if you don't go offstage.

 

[Messiano]

I honestly feel that you should take the polls from outside of NY, Because me and a few friends (all well known smashers) were having a discussion about Meta and it seems when you look at the players outside of NY it all the really good ones are meta mains or have a meta in their pocket it almost seems (and could be over analyzing) that NYC is one of the few if not only places that even know that the roster consists of more then on character. Not that it is that crazy just saying if you look at the numbers excluding NY i think the results in who mains meta will be even more ridiculous and might open some more eyes, You also have to consider how many people who voted NO are people who might not have been as successful in Melee for various reasons and feel like they have a edge due to their maining meta (and yes i know if your good your good if your bad... well your bad....)


Repost due to it being lost in the intense flaming also

People need to realize it could be a temp ban in which people can learn to excel with other characters and help the roster as a whole.

This leads to more competition and a overall more balanced game. (This doesn't mean that its 100% but the possibility is strong.) Too many skilled players out there near impossible to not figure different ways to excel as someone who is just not really used because people feel its a waste of time.

 

[SilverDrgn85]

How about something new for this thread? I’ve heard a lot about how “Metaknight is broken” and “No he’s not” and I wanted to find out for myself. So I took the data from Ankoku’s thread, specifically http://theviashino.com/ssbb/tournaments-2009-2.txt , and crunched some numbers myself. I crunched the data in exactly the same way Ankoku did with one exception: if a player placed using more than one character, I awarded zero points instead of dividing them. The reasoning for my decision can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7199097&postcount=7372

So, here are the current tournament standings that only award points for characters who placed SOLO. The format is (rank) (character) (points) (difference in placing from Ankoku’s list)

1 Metaknight -------------- 906.15 --- same
2 Snake –------------------- 379.97 --- same
3 Diddy Kong -------------- 259.72 --- +1
4 King Dedede ------------- 155 ------- -1
5 Wario --------------------- 116.41 ---- same
6 Marth --------------------- 109 -------- same
7 Pikachu ------------------- 97.78 ----- +6

-------------------------------------------------------

8 ROB ------------------------ 85.65 ----- same
9 Mr. Game and Watch ----- 75.88 ---- -2
10 Sonic --------------------- 71.94 ----- +9
11 Olimar -------------------- 69.19 ----- +6
12 Kirby --------------------- 67.44 ----- -1
13 Donkey Kong ------------ 65.09 ----- +3

-------------------------------------------------------

14 Falco --------------------- 62.89 ------ -4
15 Luigi ---------------------- 49.5 -------- -1
16 Lucario ------------------ 47.74 ------- -1
17 Toon Link ---------------- 41.28 ------- +5
18 Fox ----------------------- 37.91 ------- +6
19 Sheik --------------------- 35.06 ------ +6
20 Peach -------------------- 33.81 ------ +3
21 Yoshi --------------------- 33.72 ------ +6
22 Pit ------------------------ 31.59 ------ -1
23 Ice Climbers ------------ 27.31 ------ -14
24 Pokemon Trainer ------ 22.22 ------ -6
25 Zero Suit Samus ------- 21.91 ------ -13
26 Lucas --------------------- 11.57 ------ -6
27 Wolf ----------------------- 11.16 ------ -1
28 Ike ------------------------- 10.63 ------ +1
Zelda -------------------------- 8.13
29 Link ------------------------ 6.49 ------- +3
30 Bowser ------------------- 4.16 -------- +4
31 Samus -------------------- 2.22 ------- +4
ZeldaSheik ------------------- 1.05
32 Captain Falcon ---------- .5 ---------- +4
36 Ness ----------------------- 0 ----------- -8
36 Ganondorf ---------------- 0 ----------- -6
36 Jigglypuff ----------------- 0 ----------- -5
36 Mario ---------------------- 0 ------------ -3

The first line indicates the point where characters have less than 10% of the points that Metaknight does. In other words, Metaknight is currently at least 10 times better than everyone worse than Pikachu. The second line indicates everyone worse than Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong has a nearly unwinnable match up against Dedede, a very relevant character. Anyone doing worse than Donkey Kong solo is in pretty dire straights indeed. Finally, since data was available for Sheik, Zelda, and Zelda/Sheik, I computed all three of them seperately. I only put a rank beside the one who performed best, however, to have the same number of placings as the original list.

Some interesting observations: Sonic is much better than currently believed, and when you take away secondaries, ZSS and Ice Climbers are suddenly garbage. Also, the solo Sheik players are doing better than the ones who use Zelda. Most of the good characters are in about the same place as Ankoku’s list.

So overall, it’s really close. Waiting for the next couple of big tournaments is probably the correct decision. I've posted exactly how I calculated everything so feel free to double check my numbers if you want.

 

[Deathcarter]

Eh. It's out of my system now. Let's all go back to blissfully ignoring him.


I'd still like to know whether or not people think it's okay for us to ban a character because we want to ban him.

Assuming the following is true:

1. 90% of the community wants MK banned.
2. MK is barely broken.

Would we be justified in banning MK?

I do not think that the general opinion on this issue should even be measured by the combined amount of people on Smashboards and talking in small groups. Although, most of us probably have discussed this with others outside of Smashboards that want him banned, I still beleive most of the intelligent (i.e. actually relevant smashers) don't give a passing glance at the discussion. Despite their own personal feelings, they probably just suck it up and find strategies in order to beat the MKs, knowing that they still want to be part of this game. And I think that they are more numerous than we think, considering how much bigger of a scope the Smash community is than Smashbords. I think that the people who are leaving are probably people who either have little interest in Brawl or are scrubby. The ones that further the development of the game and tourney scene will likely take a apprehensive approach to a ban.

Not only is the ban not justified, but this thread and Smashboards in general overexaggerate this issue in general.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I heard that they were working on a way you wouldn't have to use TP for.

Yeah it is called bannerbomb. The same risks are required though, you are stil installing software that is not normal for the wii to have.
Just use the TP hack.

 

[PCyph]

What nintendo SHOULD do(which they wont) is actually ****ING PATCH A GAME, and nerf MK's recovery or any of his other moves to make him worse. While they're at it they can imporve Captain Falcon and others.

Seriously, World Of Warcraft PVP is one of the most played games on a competitive pro level, and Blizzard patches the game ALL THE TIME.

Who cares what changes, people will adapt.

Nintendo needs to fix their game.

EDIT:

Or someone should create something similar to Brawl+, except don't change the game mechanics. Just balance out characters according to community input.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What nintendo SHOULD do(which they wont) is actually ****ING PATCH A GAME,

Not possible to patch a game not built for patching.

They can release a new version though.

 

[-Ran]

Brawl will never be patched. Brawl was never intended to be patchable, and so the design for it was never incorporated. The only way we will ever see an official patch for Brawl is if Nintendo re-releases the game. This won't be happening, since the game has and will continue to make them bank. Most casual players feel that MK is a weak player, and don't understand the nature of the beast.

 

[PCyph]

Then I suggest this:

"Or someone should create something similar to Brawl+, except don't change the game mechanics. Just balance out characters according to community input."

Seriously, it would fix a lot of things.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For the third time, I don't think MK is broken enough to be banned.

He has neutrals that people either won't admit or have problems of their own to handle. Snake, Falco, Wario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, Bowser, Kirby. They all have the tools to get even or near even match-ups with MK. You can CP a neutral or a near neutral with MK without picking MK and quite it's plausible.

I will say this, MK is the safest option to pick in Brawl which adds to his dominance. I do think the game could improve with him gone, but it's only if people want to.

pure_awesome is entirely right that is it our choice rather than an necessity.

 

[PCyph]

Also sorry for the double post, but they fixed mario kart glitches via an update,

they can't do anything about Brawl?