Event - MLG Anaheim 2014 So now that we know MLG hosts ridiculous smash tournaments...

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If any character has more than 4 hard counter stages to choose from in the stage list, than I can see this being an issue, but no character has 4 hard counter stages in the starter list. Each player gets to strike 4 stages overall.

Also, I don't like the use of the word gimmicky being tossed around in terms of stages. Who is to say that being a large flat stage isn't gimmicky?

I think it depends on the MU.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Also, I don't like the use of the word gimmicky being tossed around in terms of stages. Who is to say that being a large flat stage isn't gimmicky?

I agree with this. Gimmicky is a subjective term.

Well, I'd like to point out that lag doesn't affect all characters the same. IC's are very much so affected by the lag. Lain, Meep, and Cheese have all said that they had messed up many chaingrabs due to the TV's.

Not disagreeing with this.

 

[Damage Points]

All of these people whining about MLG ruleset and tvs. You guys realize that no one is forcing you to go.

 

[Merkuri]

All of these people whining about MLG ruleset and tvs. You guys realize that no one is forcing you to go.

And they're asking for a better tournament circuit. Don't be a douche man.

 

[Eddie G]

And they're asking for a better tournament circuit. Don't be a douche man.

He's not being a douche, he's telling everyone exactly how it is just as I have been doing. The amount of johns and whining I see in this thread is ridiculous. Either you go or you don't.

If people can't understand something that simple then I feel quite sorry for them.

 

[etecoon]

I agree with this. Gimmicky is a subjective term.

yes, the flat stage is gimmicky, not the one that shoots lava at you

l
m
f
a
o

MW

 

[Eddie G]

yes, the flat stage is gimmicky, not the one that shoots lava at you

l
m
f
a
o

MW

You really are a close minded one aren't you?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Wow, I've only read the last two pages of this thread and I'm already hooked. *subscribed*

 

[Dark 3nergy]

imma go practice on my hd tv downstairs then ironically bring it to showdown

gl gais

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The same could easily be said about items, maybe we just take out the "overcentralizing" ones. Granted I dont care as much about CPs. My issue is mostly with the gimmicky neutrals.

Also, I believe the issue as far as MK goes isnt so much that the stage gives MK any sort of strategic advantage. Its the fact that he can deal with or abuse stage gimmicks more then any other character.

You could say that about items. However, these "legal" stages share a quality that items usually don't-they either aren't intristically random, their randomness is severely limited in the amount it helps players, and their randomness can be seen coming a mile away (norfair's lava, for example). Part of why I don't really support GG (that and overcentralizing tactics).

I don't see how people can argue for these stages when it allows hard counters stages be picked first game. It's rather silly TBH. The stage list is bad and everyone who likes it should feel bad.

final destination?

wtf are you talking about lol

Yeah, king has it right. FD for CP.

Seriously!

 

[Conti]

Lol all I gotta say is, people are "whineing" because this is the biggest thing to happen to smash, its a big deal and people want to see smash's best gaming circuit being ran at the best possible way it can be...
That's why people want a compromise with the stage list
[someone else said 7 stages... yes haha ]
And the 2frame lag on TVs... which DOES make a difference... if u feel it doesn't... then..... well ur dumb haha... ;]

So yeah

 

[solecalibur]

yes, the flat stage is gimmicky, not the one that shoots lava at you

l
m
f
a
o

MW

No one knows how to deal with norfair to begin with as there is only one small window when the lava has hit boxes (that attack you) and people will shield the second they see the lava come out and not even a hitbox yet

Watching EC preform on these stages are hilarious as well because the topic contains "this dumb" and show a video of green greens where they will walk into bombs, attack a block at point blank expecting no bomb to go off, or a bunch of different things that are just hilarious to watch
'
Most ppl that complain about the stage list and havnt even been CP'd here yet or practiced on the stage enough with an open mind and the ability to learn how to avoid these stage hazards and just say "this dumb im going back to my old stage list"

For Diddy,Falco and ICs being "neutral" based characters
Get over it! Dont go, pick a new character, or learn how to play on that stage with that character, its not hard!

 

[etecoon]

For Diddy,Falco and ICs being "neutral" based characters
Get over it! Dont go...

obv the rules are going to be a factor determining whether or not someone goes to these events, and how much they enjoy it if they go. so why is it that the rules cater to a minority like this? only MW favors this ****, and as someone else put it, not even all of MW, mostly ohio -_- no point alienating everyone else like that

 

[Damage Points]

And they're asking for a better tournament circuit. Don't be a douche man.

I'm not being a douche. All if you guys are. Mlg doesn't have to have brawl on the circuit. They don't have to give out nice cash prizes. This is their tournament with their rules. If u don't like the stage list go to locals then or go to apex and other nationals. Your all being ungrateful whiny babies. Just shut up already.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

everyone asking for the 7 stages is ****en stupid unless they are removing FD.

 

[Reizilla]

The only thing lag affects is REACTION TIME! If you're an ICs player and don't know the timing of your grabs, it's your own fault. The reason why wifi lag sucks so much is because it's inconsistent. That's what screws up your timing. You can't seriously believe that you have to react to every input for every throw in a chain grab. That would be impossible because they go by in much less that 12 frames. 1-2 frames lag is fine. If you know the timings (which is the only way you'll get it right in the first place), you'll be perfectly fine and have nothing to blame but yourself.

As far as the stage list goes, the rules for Brawl shouldn't be made to cater to any number of characters, unless something is ridiculous (ie: planking and standing infinites). If MLG believes that their stage list is fair, for both starters and counterpicks, than that's the type of Brawl they want to see played. The characters (and most importantly, PLAYERS) that do well AT 9-STAGE-STARTER-GGs-AND-NORAIR-COUNTERPICK Brawl will be the ones that do good. It's as simple as that. Whether or not it does or doesn't give an advantage to characters X, Y, and Z isn't something that should be discussed. That's the whole point of playing on different stages. There is no justifying character johns. It's not the type of Brawl they want to see played. The only thing that should be discussed is the LEGALITY of a certain stage, NOT whether they give certain characters advantages.

Basically, the rules determine the tier list, the tier list doesn't determine the rules. Make sense? Good. Continue the (il)logical discussion.

 

[The Truth!]

No one knows how to deal with norfair to begin with as there is only one small window when the lava has hit boxes (that attack you) and people will shield the second they see the lava come out and not even a hitbox yet

Watching EC preform on these stages are hilarious as well because the topic contains "this dumb" and show a video of green greens where they will walk into bombs, attack a block at point blank expecting no bomb to go off, or a bunch of different things that are just hilarious to watch
'
Most ppl that complain about the stage list and havnt even been CP'd here yet or practiced on the stage enough with an open mind and the ability to learn how to avoid these stage hazards and just say "this dumb im going back to my old stage list"

For Diddy,Falco and ICs being "neutral" based characters
Get over it! Dont go, pick a new character, or learn how to play on that stage with that character, its not hard!

Why should anyone even need to practice for stage gimmicks, especially on neutrals? If you want a game that isnt competitive, by all means add Hanenbrow and turn on items. The rest of us would actually care to test our skill against the opponent, not the stage.

everyone asking for the 7 stages is ****en stupid unless they are removing FD.

I still think its ridiculous that people are arguing in favor of stage gimmicks in order to give a handicap to compensate for their characters inviability.

 

[Juushichi]

You're asking why people should practice for stages that they know they might see if they go to a certain tournament and it's stage list.

God**** you are dumb as ****. It's utterly astounding.

 

[etecoon]

stay classy ohio

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

FD is easily the very worst neutral in the 9-neutral list.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't you guys see that your arguments are inherently flawed? There is no such thing as a "neutral" stage. Just strike the first stage of the set out of the whole legal stage list. It'll be the one both players will disagree with the least and that's all that matters. Who cares if it's PS2 when both players find it to be the best stage to start the set on.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

You're asking why people should practice for stages that they know they might see if they go to a certain tournament's stage list.

God**** you are dumb as ****. It's utterly astounding.

dont let it bug u too much bro you cant be expectin great things off the internet

 

[kackamee]

All of these people whining about MLG ruleset and tvs. You guys realize that no one is forcing you to go.

All we wanna do is make the experience of MLG even better. Better TV's would make it a better experience.

Not disagreeing with this.

Haha. Cool. So then? Do we get non HD's?

For Diddy,Falco and ICs being "neutral" based characters
Get over it! Dont go, pick a new character, or learn how to play on that stage with that character, its not hard!

Yeah everyone. Play Metakinght! He is da bess. On every stage. At every matchup.

Seriously. No one wants to just pick up a whole new character because a entirely new rulelist came out that no one would've ever though to practice with. And even when they do practice it, it's still very unnatural to the player(s).
Unless you play MK.

The only thing lag affects is REACTION TIME! If you're an ICs player and don't know the timing of your grabs, it's your own fault. The reason why wifi lag sucks so much is because it's inconsistent. That's what screws up your timing. You can't seriously believe that you have to react to every input for every throw in a chain grab. That would be impossible because they go by in much less that 12 frames. 1-2 frames lag is fine. If you know the timings (which is the only way you'll get it right in the first place), you'll be perfectly fine and have nothing to blame but yourself.

As far as the stage list goes, the rules for Brawl shouldn't be made to cater to any number of characters, unless something is ridiculous (ie: planking and standing infinites). If MLG believes that their stage list is fair, for both starters and counterpicks, than that's the type of Brawl they want to see played. The characters (and most importantly, PLAYERS) that do well AT 9-STAGE-STARTER-GGs-AND-NORAIR-COUNTERPICK Brawl will be the ones that do good. It's as simple as that. Whether or not it does or doesn't give an advantage to characters X, Y, and Z isn't something that should be discussed. That's the whole point of playing on different stages. There is no justifying character johns. It's not the type of Brawl they want to see played. The only thing that should be discussed is the LEGALITY of a certain stage, NOT whether they give certain characters advantages.

Basically, the rules determine the tier list, the tier list doesn't determine the rules. Make sense? Good. Continue the (il)logical discussion.

Uhm. Sorry. But no. You are very wrong. SOME Ice Climber mains might go by memorizing the times of the chaingrab (which are different for every character), but the other IC mains learn the CGs by Visual Cues. I am one of the IC's that does that. I know when to press which button based on when I see a certain part of Nana/Popo's grab animation. and Obviously that would be messed up by the slightest bit of lag on a TV, and that isn't fair.
Then there are other IC's who learn CG's based on the sounds they hear. And lag on TV's effect sound too.
Lain, Meep, and Cheese, who are all good IC players, all messed up their chaingrabs during their tourney matches. And I would doubt it's because they weren't prepared.

And when it messes up reaction time, it's still a major issue. Powershielding, punishing, and other character-specific moves that require precise timing would be messed up due to lag on the tv's.

 

[meepxzero]

lol... is this guy smoking crack or something. I do my cgs off visual cues. Im confident enough to say im probably the best ic cger outta everyone. Lain knows i dont *** up on a regular tv. The only time i ever drop grabs is if nana trips. I rarely choke under pressure and the only reason i dropped grabs was the 1-2 frames it was off because i couldnt fully buffer my grabs like i usually do.

There was also one instance where atomsk grabbed dojo, but if he had that 1-2 extra frames to react to the grab at low percents he coulda won, but dojo knew ahead of the time the grab was gonna land and buffered a mash and got out. He woulda won the game but yea ic get ***** by small lag.

I know mlg wont change tvs due to one character, but they needa know it greatly effects this character the most outta all of them.

 

[Krystedez]

Yea thats bull ****. I wanted to play some IC's at MLG and I'm glad I didn't if they weren't going to be at full potential. Even in friendlies it's mad frustrating to see one grab go to waste with those guys.

Love your sig, Meep. <3

 

[Dark 3nergy]

mmmmm

so is it the cables that are the issue? im planning on bringing a hd tv to a tournie tomorrow, however i have basic cables that work with it too

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Final D isn't a hard counter for any character =/. That's not to say some characters don't perform better on Final D than others this is true for every stage however to consider final D a hard counter is simply idiotic. Halberd and Delfino are hard counters. Castle seige not so much but is has the walk off. Hell if these stages are considered starters brinstar should be as well.

 

[Overswarm]

OS doesn't even have a solid reason for the falling blocks. He just said something the lines of "err.. just stay away from those areas."

*cracks knuckles*

Sup kiddo.

The blocks fall at a set ratio of bomb/block (meaning the bombs you see, the less likely a falling block will be a bomb, and vice versa) and the speed is determined by the highest block for that column and side.

Air dodging when the blocks hit = no damage from block or bomb, they just disappear/explode with no knockback.

You can tech into both bombs and blocks, whether they are airborne or not.

If you look at the top level of the green greens block from the center and create a scalene triangle in your head (imaginaaaaaation) with the top block from a column and the ground being a side with the final point ending slighlty after the platform, you're looking at a "safe zone" if you're DIing down.

The bombs can easily be destroyed by most characters without causing harm to yourself.

The bombs don't really KO... at all. You have to be at really high % or be DIing poorly to die from them.


What is it you want to know? Tip of the iceberg.

Or maybe we shouldn't just boost the best character in the game who is already the most dominant in brawl's metagame? It may be just because you are not the one being affected, a little peach main with advantages on this stagelist. After this I hope to god this stagelist dies and people realize it for what it is.

No one hates Meta Knight more than me. Trust me, I want him gone. So this guy that you're talking to? He would LOVE it if we could clip that bat's wings. It'd be pretty awesome.


HOWEVER.... you may have noticed a slight irregularity in what I want. I loudly have championed the front to ban Meta Knight, but have been vehemently opposed to limiting him via LGLs, anti-scrooging rules, specific stage selection, individual rules on Meta Knight, etc., etc.

I am a responsible gamer that doesn't do things solely because they benefit me. I do what is logical and what is right and choose the most powerful route; I used to play ROB, now I play MK. If the stage list changed to FD only, I'd probably main Falco, Diddy, ICs, or some combination of the three. It's how I roll.

I am completely against self-serving actions, and I am against surgical changes to balance something. I prefer global changes.

You can read up on that here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262943


Now what you're doing is pretty childish.

ADHD, you main Diddy. Every single request of yours has been focused around this point. You want less starters, and the starters you do want happen to be all of Diddys counterpicks. You want less counterpicks, and the ones you're removing happen to bad for Diddy. These are not responsible choices.

Diddy's an extremely limited character with very few options when it comes to counterpicks. You literally have to reinvent him to play on stages like Brinstar, Norfair, etc., etc. And I've seen you play on them. You're a fish out of water and have a lot to learn. Even if you did though, they aren't good stages for him.

But you know what? Deal with it.


It's one thing to pick the best character in the game based off of the options available, and it is a completely other thing to pick a character and expect the game to revolve around you. That isn't how it works. What you're doing is no different than if a Meta Knight said "we should play only on Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and Norfair". There are various trivialties you could point out about the comparison, but at the heart of it... its just some self-serving request to make the game played in such a way that it benefits that player's prior choices.


Get better, ADHD. Play to win, and stop being such a scrub.

-------------------

Question-am I wrong to imagine that with only custom stages on and with the smoke ball item on, the game might actually be really, really balanced?

I, for one, propose we initiate a 1-year "trial period" during which all tournaments will play under such rules

I've ran a circuit with a series of custom stages in it (two starters, one counter) and they worked incredibly well. I'll be posting a report relatively soon.

As for items, we've tested them thoroughly in multiple areas and multiple regions. Results CAN be consistent but the items themselves can produce individual random results on a consistent basis. As such, you get consistent ranges of results, which is not competitively sound for a standard. Items as counterpicks has been discussed and actually wouldn't be a bad idea competitively, but it is less likely to exist due to public disapproval.

 

[The Truth!]

You're asking why people should practice for stages that they know they might see if they go to a certain tournament and it's stage list.

God**** you are dumb as ****. It's utterly astounding.

Learn to read bro, I hear its helpful skill for the nets. Remember

Don't you guys see that your arguments are inherently flawed? There is no such thing as a "neutral" stage. Just strike the first stage of the set out of the whole legal stage list. It'll be the one both players will disagree with the least and that's all that matters. Who cares if it's PS2 when both players find it to be the best stage to start the set on.

Stop trying to question definitions, this isnt a linguistics course. The most hilarious thing is when push comes to shove most of the pro-gimmick crowd that uses this argument wouldnt take it all the way, because they either do feel that some stages are more 'neutral' then others, or no one reasonably smart would ever listen to them.

It was never about eliminating character advantages. No intelligent person will ever argue this, not even the MLG and Ohio peeps who made the list. Shoot, AZ already came in here and specifically said this was not the reason additional stages were added. The only people who agree with "no such thing as a neutral" are delusional low/mid tier mains and those who are two lazy to learn matchups. Anyone who argues for this has absolutely no leg to stand on.

 

[uhmuzing]

Overswarm wins the thread. xD

 

[tocador]

I just grew some hair chest by reading OS testosterone-full post.

I see that people try to justify that more stages = more fun(or at least more diversity), but if we really are focusing diversity why not(sorry to bring it aggain) ban MK?

Or better, if we are going to allow stages like GG and Norfair, why ban stages like Japes that are just AS "fair"?

While ADHD might be biased, everyone is just biased aggaisnt him. People should STOP looking at yourself and start looking from out-side of the box, or at least with a general view.

SAY NO to a imbalanced game where everyone wants the biggest piece of the cake he can get

SAY YES to brawl;

 

[etecoon]

I just grew some hair chest by reading OS testosterone-full post.

I see that people try to justify that more stages = more fun(or at least more diversity), but if we really are focusing diversity why not(sorry to bring it aggain) ban MK?

why do people preemptively apologize lol, if you actually knew better you wouldn't be doing it in the first place, stupid stupid formality

also

This thread is going to stay closed. Any discussion regarding metaknight belongs in the metaknight forums. Any discussion regarding banning him or anything of the sort should be done in social groups. The SBR is not currently holding any votes or discussing metaknight.

I'm sure everyone who has been posting in this or one of the other four threads knows how redundant it gets. All this topic is doing right now is serving to be a playground for trolls and off topic discussion.

enjoy your

 

[Overswarm]

I see that people try to justify that more stages = more fun(or at least more diversity), but if we really are focusing diversity why not(sorry to bring it aggain) ban MK?

Diversity, in of itself, is not a good reason to alter a ruleset except in the most dire (or unique) of circumstances.

A low tier tournament used to mean "play Luigi or Ike" and some low tier tournaments banned Ike and Luigi because they were too good within that small group of characters. This was okay because these were goofball tournaments meant for fun.

Someone saying "ban MK because there aren't any other characters" is touching on a problem, not expressing one. I agree that the number of MKs is obscene, but this in and of itself is not an issue from a competitive standpoint. What CAN be said is why we see so many MKs.

To keep MK legal and to maintain the kind of competitive scene people seem to want (diversity and fun and all that) we need a plethora of individual rules.

-many stages removed
-specific starters designed to be bad for MK
-LGL
-anti-scrooging
-no IDC
-no infinite glide (haha, you guys don't even know about that one!)
-no MK infnite (that's right, MK has an infinite on EVERYONE IN THE GAME, hahahahahahahaha)

So on and so forth.

The reason we see so many MKs is because he's

A) easy to use
B) good


Many people have taken a surgical approach to altering reason B, which I do not approve of. It inadvertantly helps or hurts other characters. I called it WAAAAAAAAAAY back in the day that Falco, ICs, and Diddy would do much better if CPs were lowered and starters were moved down to three. When stage striking was started, I was one of the first people to support adopting it; I believe Dastrn in the MW was the guy who finally ran a tournament with it to great success with nine stages. When it was lowered, Falco, ICs, and Diddy got huge advantages G1. I predicted their downfall when that changed. Now that CPs are on the rise, Falco, ICs, and Diddy aren't neeeeearly as scary. I'm freaking psychic.

But I digress. Altering the game to alter Metaknight hurts some characters that aren't MK! The LGL, for example, hurts ROB tremendously. ROB can't ledge camp anymore vs. Dedede, which is very important. That's pretty bad. Stuff like that.

 

[Eddie G]

Etecoon...your posts are a waste of space, please stop.

1. Why hate on Ohio? Our scene is alive and thriving, so why bash our overall liberal (or rather...openminded) stance? Have you even been to an Ohio tournament before (excluding MLG)? Someone's jealous.

2. This thread/topic has nothing to do with a singular topic around MK. We're all discussing the game's CP system/stage choices as a whole and using characters as examples wherever they fit, while watching the quick demolition of one certain Diddy main's childish argument/request to make the game revolve around his character and preferences.

P.S. *highfive* for that sexy post OS.

3. You have yet to post anything worthwhile.



And ADHD...it's funny that you try to accuse me of having some sort of bias regarding a liberal stagelist simply because I'm a Peach main. NEWSFLASH: My worst matchup is better and more flexible on any possible stage on this list than I am! How could I possibly benefit from arguing for a broader stagelist when MK ***** my character harder on any CP than he could on most starters? Where is the bias in that?

Nice try though, it was cute.

 

[etecoon]

Someone's jealous.

if my region resembled yours at all I'd have quit the game a long time ago. yes, that's it, your stage philosophies aren't widely disliked...EC and WC are just JEALOUS of OHIO, LOLOL

 

[Eddie G]

if my region resembled yours at all I'd have quit the game a long time ago

Have you even been to an Ohio tournament before (excluding MLG)?

You're quite the selective reader I see. Answer the question.

Top 5 payout, cheap venue fees, great venue locations, plenty of friendlies due to timely tournament execution, people coming and having a great time. Yeah...you'd be miserable.

 

[etecoon]

You're quite the selective reader I see. Answer the question.

only part I cared for, it's pretty obvious that I haven't anyway, my beef with the rules is based on stages. venue fees/payout/execution are secondary to the actual game.

 

[Eddie G]

only part I cared for, it's pretty obvious that I haven't anyway, my beef with the rules is based on stages. venue fees/payout/execution are secondary to the actual game.

I'll just agree to disagree on that, but no need to hate on a region you've never even visited.

 

[etecoon]

nvm, you're right, this is completely pointless

 

[Eddie G]

wouldn't be so hateful if a minority region didn't feel the need to be so outspoken, YOU GUYS ARE ALL SCRUBS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PLAY ON NORFAIR/SWITCH CHARACTERS FOR GREEN GREENS, RAWR

defending yourself is one thing and being different is fine, you're just as disrespectful as any of us however.

That's just it, being seen as a minority region blows so of course we're going to be outspoken. There's a similar reaction to being stepped on in real life...it's called standing your ground.

Disrespect or no disrespect...can you really blame us?