Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Nidtendofreak]

See, like I said: my method of just going by memory is failing me.

 

[solecalibur]

-I still think water is way overrated for ike but I'd like to not get into that discussion would like to move on >.> (I think I need to MM Renagade about this some time if I can find the time lol)

-Halberd vertical kill would probly help zss more then it would help ike as we die at 70% anyways lol

-Fd-)Frigate seems to be the worst then

edit - @Nidtendofreak below me ninja'd me =(

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't think Renagade plays as Ike anymore.

 

[Ussi]

Pretty sure he still uses him for low tier but he mains Snake.

Also, dying sooner means Ike can kill sooner with a charged usmash/utilt still, though it still takes like 5 jab combos to get there.

also due to Halberd's inclined middle you can side B even a perfectly spaced aether, i'd say a stage more in favor for ZSS

 

[solecalibur]

Alright is there anything else to be said, anything about ike that has changed or what not?

Wanna keep things rolling

 

[#HBC | J]

next charrie ;D we have been moving fast lately!

60:40 seems agreed upon

 

[Ussi]

Ike is still the sameish, spacing with fair, nair and bair, though mostly nair and bair. baiting ADs with uair, nair, and usmash. Then jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab... and more jabs!

Anything else you really got read hard.

You're pretty much set now

 

[solecalibur]

Ok I appreciate the help
I'll leave this discussion on over night for the other smashers and I'll post our next MU tomorrow morning

 

[Nidtendofreak]

One thing:

If anyone says that fair is Ike's most important aerial, I'm going to stab them with a rusty pen knife. Through the internet. That goes double if they are in the BBR. We aren't in '08 people.

That is all. Have a nice day. :D

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Fair is Ike's most important aerial.

Seriously though, I get a decent amount of practice in this matchup with Watkins (although I typically go other characters against him to give him practice in more matchups), and I actually don't care for this matchup. If the Ike plays smart it's really annoying. I get the feeling it's more player outsmarting player than it is a character/character, or maybe I'm just garbs at this matchup. Dunno lol. Next practice session I get with him, I'll try to focus on this matchup. Unfortunately he's juggling 3 characters nowadays so I might not get the matchup focus I'll need

 

[TheZeroSuit]

Ok 60/40 seems to be generally accepted in zss' favor

Next up : Yoshi

 

[Z'zgashi]

the yoshis were discussing this one not to long ago, so ill just quote what i said there. and fyi, i dont have as much experience in this mu as most other yoshis, so i dont really have anything extraordinary to offer

K, so i played one in a tournament today, and this is what i think. Our eggs outspace her paralyzer so if we space, yoshi can camp quite well, but be cautious when shes grounded as she's ridiculously fast. Pivot grabing works quite decently here and the CG is a good damage builder, but good zss's wont fall for the grab more than a couple times. In the air, yoshi ***** HARD if we're below her, but shes a beast if we're above her (both of their uairs raaape). She has a hard time killing us due to our amazing mobility, but our only reliable kill move imo is uair.

also, i have absolutely NO IDEA on what the mu should be, but i guess ill say its even imo

 

[Dakpo]

if you have been killed by uair most of the time i think that it is really the most reliable kill move then you have not been playing a good zss my friend . Bair ftw

 

[Nefarious B]

He was saying Yoshi's only reliable kill move is uair, which is true.

Socks is good at this matchup, he'd probably give some good insight. I've played him a lot but I don't really know how to explain the matchup. It's one of those where it just feels like ZS wins, even though socks is (was) a better player than me (6 monthes ago).

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS wins 60:40.
Your eggs suck.
You CANNOT gimp us, or you have a bigger chance of dying.
Once a ZSS players learns that your smashes are stupid, and just to stay far away from your giant ****ing head, your only reliable kill move is uair/down-b.
If you do not hit us with the first down-b, we can move under you, side-step the second hit, and d-smash you. (I've done it on reaction to Poltergust a couple of times.)
The one thing that really ****s us over is your DJ heavy-armor. I tried to jab Polt while he was recovering, and he HAed through the first one, and uaired me.

We easily outspace you.
We beat you in the air.
You beat us on the ground, but who doesn't?
Neither of us can camp.
If either of us try to camp, it is punishable by the other.
We recover slightly better than you, since we have an easier footstool option than most of the cast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP5XqhBcv7E

Polt is pretty good. (Not vs. me, just showing some credibility on my opponent.)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah egg camping is TERRIBLE vs ZSS. Last time a Yoshi tried to egg camp me in tourney on stage I PS'ed the first one and just dash grabbed him. =/ You'd be surprised how well that works.

Not many people know this but if Yoshi hits you with the first hit of down-b you can airdodge and the second hit won't connect, lol.

 

[Dakpo]

thanks for that tip :o

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You can test this by setting the CPU to level 9 and using Ground Pound on it; air dodges every time.

 

[TheSaintKai]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10867377#post10867377
Snakes are discussing the ZSS match-up, everyone.
I figured you should know, so they don't assume it's '08. ;D

 

[A1lion835]

The Kirbies are discussing ZSS! Any help with the discussion would be greatly appreciated .

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283021

 

[solecalibur]

Lol , I dont think many yoshi's vs Zss I suppose I'll finish this up after apex , any last thoughts?
^^^ also check those out when u can

 

[Flayl]

Snakeee now has more Bowser matchup experience than 90% of the ZSS boards. I advise asking him about it.

 

[Kotu]

Falco or link just saying falco needs a girlfriend and link zelda and him aren't really together from zelda's way of seeing it

 

[Kotu]

Well i haven't read about falco so i don't know why he has less well the least of the group

 

[Furbs]

just like to point out that footstooling should never be considered when discussing matchups, considering if yoshi does anything (which they will; be it dair from the side, airdodge etc.) he won't go into tumbling animation and you just get a boosted jump off him.

I have honestly never had a problem with ZSS but then again the only ZSS I've ever played against was vorgy, and those matches felt like 50:50

but people aren't going to listen to this post because hey, it's yoshi

 

[solecalibur]

just like to point out that footstooling should never be considered when discussing matchups, considering if yoshi does anything (which they will; be it dair from the side, airdodge etc.) he won't go into tumbling animation and you just get a boosted jump off him.

I have honestly never had a problem with ZSS but then again the only ZSS I've ever played against was vorgy, and those matches felt like 50:50

but people aren't going to listen to this post because hey, it's yoshi

D-smash can stun him and make it a whole lot easier to footstool him since he isnt moving =)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You can't dsmash Yoshi out of his second jump.

 

[Darky-Sama]

He can take damage from it, but it won't stun him during the invincibility frames.

 

[solecalibur]

but yoshi is still d-smashable, and d-smashable off stage
edit -I guess I should have mentioned that he isnt dsmashable while in his 2nd jump opps

 

[TheZeroSuit]

Despite Falco being our worst matchup, we don't really have a good matchup discussion on him. I think in light of current events it's more obvious that we should redo the matchup to figure out exactly how this thing goes:
Falco

 

[Nefarious B]

Let me just say I kind of expect people to have more to say on this matchup than our other discussions. We all know this isn't easy by any means, so I atleast would appreciate it if people are thorough when explaining what has and hasn't worked for/against them.

Choice is #2 in my region and I play him a lot. He's a better player than me and beats me 90% of the time, but I've learned a lot of tricks in the matchup from playing him. I'll ask him to comment on this thread.

I feel like this matchup is a lot about A. landing gay stuff B. not letting him land gay stuff (CG, fully charged fsmash reads). It's about maximizing every chance to gain some momentum. Most of all, it's about patience.

Now with that said, I think the best way to conceptualize this matchup is thinking about it at what we can do at different ranges, since Falco's lasers effectively limit us enough that our playstyles must drastically change in each zone.

Long Range: Falco is probably spamming lasers to force an approach, while we are probably either grabbing a ledge, crawling backwards against a ledge, plat camping, or attempting to walk/dash/crawl PS approach through the lasers.

Tips for this range:

• You start the match here. I like to grab one suit piece and immediately crawl backwards
• Walking instead of running eliminates the risk of being caught with a laser while starting up a dash
• A lot of falcos won't time their lasers perfectly because against tall characters, they don't have to. When walking, you can crawl under the second laser instead of shielding to allow you to approach faster, or just crouch if you don't want to advance.
• Neither player takes much damage at this range. The main purpose it serves is establishing who is approaching, which is decided by who has higher %. Do NOT approach if you have a lead; you're far better off countering an approaching falco than the other way around.

Mid range: In my opinion, this is the most crucial, and the area where I find hardest to figure out.

Falco will probably be spamming lasers as you approach, and at this point youre close enough that he has to start thinking of how he will reset the situation to long range, or score more damage than lasers themselves can dish out. His lasers, even when powershielded, give him enough time to startup another action before we can punish, so this is heavily based on predicting the action following the laser. Since all of falco's options are faster than reaction time, it can be very difficult.

This range is basically the fork in the hypothetical road of the matchup. It can go 3 ways. The first, and most likely, is that Falco will either get some chip damage on you, or escape mostly unscathed. The way Falco would like the situation to go is predict your reaction following a laser correctly, which can lead to reads with smashes, CGs, or getting you off balance to start a juggle. The way that ZSS wants the interaction to go is land a hit. Seriously. Landing any decent hit is enough to stop the camping and force Falco to attempt to escape or hit your out of your strings. ZSS is one of the best characters at retaining momentum, but has difficulty gaining it in her hard matchups, and Falco is the hardest matchup to gain the momentum in. So don't focus on landing big hits until you've gained the momentum; Falco is too fast to land vanilla dsmashes or side bs. Let your chip damage turn into reads and you have a chance in this matchup.

Falco's most likely options:

• Laser to IAP (escape/reset)
• Laser to dash attack/ftilt/less often downb (space/catch a shield drop following a PSed laser)
• Laser to jab (pressures shield. falco can jab jab2 reset, jab grab, or jab infinite to pressure further)
• Laser to roll (punish a whiffed punish. roll behinds make it difficult not to get grabbed)
• Laser to grab (to beat shield obv)

Tips: (And no I haven't worked some of these into my game)

• One thing I see pros do sometimes against falco is shield the laser then roll backwards, so that they're invincible as falco phantasms through them. This not only avoids having to drop shield, it also moves with falco so that when both moves complete, you are already in his face again, within the dead zone of a SH laser. This forces the falco to choose another of the above options without having the benefit of a laser forcing a shield.
  
  It's also a low risk option because if you don't predict them correctly, you will probably only get hit with a laser, and the only other loss is you are now further from falco and have to approach again.
  
  
• On that same train of thought, Ive been thinking about how maybe getting into Falco's range, and then rolling with the laser could be a good mixup. It will allow you to punish lag from a DA or ftilt when Falco whiffs where he though you were going to be standing.
  
  
• Falcos throw out ftilts/downbs/jabs after lasers because they understand that to most players, a powershield triggers an immediate shield drop in an attempt to punish. While this is a good habit against any other character, Falco's frame advantage even after a PS is enough to beat this tactic. What I will stress is, learn not to do this in the matchup, it's a terrible habit and I've been ***** soooo many times for it al;skjdf;lakjsdf.
  
  Basically, a falling laser cannot be punished unless your move hits as it hits you. Once he shoots it, he's established a frame trap. Lasers are punishable because the Falco has to SH in order to have the lagless landing, but on landing, forget the laser and worry about the follow up.
  
  
• Sometimes Falcos are foolish enough to try and shoot one last laser. Maybe they didn't realize how fast ZSS is, or how good your range is. Point is, look for the space inbetween lasers to punish. To see how this is done, I recommend the TKD vs DEHF set, TKDs 1st kill in game 2 and last kill in game 3, in particular, emphasize this point. I think our DA serves this purpose the best, and that it is our overall best move in this matchup because of the range it covers and its speed.

Edit: will finish up with my thoughts tomorrow. I'll leave the commentary on gaying Falco to Nick since he's apparently good at it haha

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I haven't really played this MU much at all, I'm sorry. But one thing I noticed when playing it, is that in the start of the match, a ZSS can use armor pieces to deny my phantasms AND rolls while approaching, it was REALLY annoying and disallowed me to reset spacing.

 

[Choice]

note: just as a heads up, this post is prolly gonna be all over the place and may reduce to rambling. if it gets to the point where its really bad, just say somethin and i'll organize it all.

i think what makes it hard for zss is having to approach falco. crawling kinda works, i mean i dont know all the specifics regarding whether or not you can crawl under a silent laser or anything but if falco uses rain lasers then even that isnt entirely safe. i think both characters kinda have to play it similarly, like once you get in you gotta keep your momentum going as much as possible. this is easier for falco, though, since zss is so floaty and big. you'll want to try to keep falco outside of his own range as much as possible, but keep him within your own range. like when you're too far away and he's just lasering, thats of no benefit to you at all, unless you have armor pieces i guess.

speaking of the armor pieces as the start, it honestly all just comes down to who can use items better. even though falco has reflector you can just bait it then punish with side b or whatever. both characters have similar glide tosses and can utilize the items within strings equally well. maybe zss has a quicker throw but thats not really that crucial.

so yea, keeping falco out with dsmashes, side b and etc. is how i figure you should be playing this. if you see an opening move in with dash attacks and try to set up a juggle. thats pretty much it, yea?

 

[solecalibur]

I'll probly keep out of this discussion also I just use a lot of gimics if I ever beat a falco or they dont know the MU well enough

We should probly notify falco boards about this there pretty active about MU discussions

Spoiler

im sure they'll walk in this thread instead of flying since this bird cant fly so high XD

 

[jibbyjaont]

I say to keep the armor pieces to about one or two. Just try to get in and don't let him space you. Try rushing him down and try to use the max range on your tilts.

 

[Choice]

when you say dont let him space you, you mean dont allow falco into your own range right? cuz zss outspaces falco and you should be the one trying to keep us out not the other way around.

when i played nick i remember him using a lot of dtilt to get me into the air, that was really annoying since falco prefers not having people below him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I find it to be a little difficult to juggle Falco, actually, but it's probably because I get flustered.

Dtilt is a good move vs Falco though because it's faster than his reflector (which annoyingly, out-ranges dtilt).

 

[clowsui]

y.b.m. keeps ****** me at this matchup, please tell me how to win it as falco -__-;

 

[Dakpo]

The main thing falco can do to zss is lazer spam and then sider B away....thats the main tactic which makes our side just about useless and makes it hard to approach..... so how do we approach falco??? and when we take the lead how do we keep it with out having to approach?

 

[NickRiddle]

The main thing falco can do to zss is lazer spam and then sider B away....thats the main tactic which makes our side just about useless and makes it hard to approach..... so how do we approach falco??? and when we take the lead how do we keep it with out having to approach?

Approach with crawling, obviously.
D-tilt Falco for not doing anything to not get d-tilted.
When you have the lead, keep crawling back and forth to avoid lazers. :D