Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Dakpo]

i would but, i no be at apex :I

 

[solecalibur]

ok so can we move on? 65 / 35 zss Bowser or 70 30?
imo its 70/30 but w/e

 

[Nefarious B]

I think it's 70/30 as well and go for it Sole I'm busy today

 

[TheZeroSuit]

Leaving the Bowser MU at 70/30

Next up
Lucas


I'll leave up the discussion for 5 days unless nothing productive is taking place then we will move on

 

[Phiddlesticks]

hahahahhahaha.*wipes tears* even ?
no freakin way. Is bowser even with mk too?
If this is the same kKong on aib that mains bowser than i have beaten him every time we played and i doubt offline would be much different

because cross-country wifi brawl matches totally mean something lol

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh this discussion will be productive ;D

I love the fact this is the MU since it is my favorite two characters (<3333). So I think I can go at this from both sides and can be unbiased to either character.

Alright ima explain the MU before I give a ratio. Hope you like ;]

Okay so let me break this down a bit.

Piece Game:
Let's start with the piece game since that is how the battle starts. ZSS should try and keep one piece on the stage against Lucas to do the most damage. She of course wins the piece game and should know how to handle her pieces however Lucas can be annoying with them if the player knows how to use pieces (like myself but lol i don't count). ZSS can pick up pieces better but both can keep them alive. Lucas should most likely just dispose the pieces while ZSS should keep one. ZSS wins this one pretty obviously.

Ground Game:
Lucas has better smashes than Zero Suit Samus. His early killing powerful smashes can kill ZSS kindof easier than harder. Fsmash is a quick smash, and well timed Downsmash on landings or a Usmash from ZSS's air approaches could mean trouble. Plus all of Lucas' moves can be extended on stages like Brinstar, Green Greens, CS(phase two) which is even worse for her. However ZSS has better kill set ups with her Dsmash (which has really great range <3). Plus most of ZSS's moves get us into the air which means trouble for Lucas since ZSS has the superior air game. But Dsmash can be PSI Magneted which heals about 28-30% of damage for Lucas and the Paralyzer can also be Magneted being 10-14%. So using Dsmash and going crazy with it isn't the best idea here at all. (*quick note* Lucas heals more than Ness so it is worse for you to use it here than against Ness [<3 Lucas])

Air Game:
Anyways lol getting off topic. Back to Air game. Now in the Air ZSS is the obvious winner. Uair when spaced right beats even our Dair. ZSS, however, outpriotizes our air game alot. Lucas should be sticking to the ground while ZSS should be trying to get him in the air, but ZSS should not forget Lucas has above average air mobility.

Camp Game:
Now camping time. Lucas has the better tools to camp ZSS with his projectiles however her Side-B is a very annoying pressure/spacer on Lucas but Lucas's Side B has more range than her Side-B (iirc and wtf lol). Anyways it is Bad for Lucas to be camping ZSS though because PS > Dash attack is annoying for him. Lucas should be trying to get as close as possible to ZSS. Lucas wins in camping terms. (however it is preferred he doesn't).

Grab Game:
Grabby Grab time, Lucas wins lol. ZSS has the worst or second worse (the only grab I would say is worse is Yoshi's). Lucas needs to remember sheilding is ZSS's bane. She literally has no grab game to speak of. However her grab moves are pretty decent if she lands it, if she doesn't land the grab....im sorry but ZSS will be eating a Usmash. (it is really painful for her ;[) Lucas has the better grab even though it is a tether grab as well. (however which grab game isn't better than hers? it is pretty terribad.) Lucky for ZSS there is no Dthrow->Utilt for us but Dthrow is a kill throw plus he can still throw you offstage where ZSS is not at her best. So near higher percentages ZSS should try not getting grabbed by Lucas since she is light.

Gimp Game:
Now this next one is weird, Lucas has the tools to be a ***** to ZSS offstage and if ZSS follows Lucas to try and gimp him she might not be making it back (it's upsetting). Lucas has the better recovery since he has a tether, Zap Jump, WaveBounce, and PKT2. However ZSS can do a bit to mess with his recovery. ZSS can Dsmash his PKT2 and possibly get the Spike (O___O) *this is iirc* and to annoy his recovery via Wavebounce and Zampjump she can Usmash or UpB to annoy us (however neither is like a kill or really dangerous, just annoying.) And Lucas needs to not be predictable with his Tether or ZSS can predict it and get a Dsmash on us *NOT FUN AT ALL!*. If Lucas tries to edgehog ZSS here is a few things she can do 1.) if she is under the stage she can actually drag Lucas down with her (lol i pulled this off a few times with her. Seeing peoples faces are priceless xD) 2.) Flipstool us 3.) Spike us via DownB (if our invincibility is gone) Plus she has a very good improved jumps. Jump+UpB = 33% better jump (right? gah I suck at remembering x-x) Edgehogging is not the best idea for either character. Lucas can gimp her a bit with PKT however she can DI it and get a free ride back to the stage, but both PKT and PKF are annoying if he can predict her Third Jump (a.k.a. DownB). I wanna give gimping to Lucas but it is kindof a draw imho. ZSS isn't the easiest person to gimp especially a good one. However I don't think ZSS should be gimping a good Lucas anytime unless he is recovering below. Basically both characters need to be really unpredicitble to not be gimped. Good ZSS grab that edge FAST especially with the range on that Side-B and UpB range+Jump from below WHILE still having a backup third jump that can spike.

tl;dr
ZSS>Lucas Piece Game (well ZSS should have better control over her pieces xD)
Lucas>ZSS Ground game
ZSS>Lucas Kill Set ups
ZSS>Lucas Air game
Lucas>ZSS Camp Game (not recommended for either though ;S)
Lucas>ZSS Grab game (....lol this is an obvious one)
Lucas=ZSS Gimp game (this is weird lol anyone gets it it's Lucas but eeeeeeeeeeeeh someone else talk about that xD)

In the end my conclusion is this MU is even as heck. However each character has a chance to make the MU in their favor based on stages. Otherwise it is a pretty nice stalemate (btw FUUUUUUUN MU to play if both sides knows this).

50:50 or 55:45 for either stage dependant. Really it is close these two.

Silly randomness: Lucas/ZSS make a good combo since they handle most of each others MUs and in teams omg I looooooove this team. it is really good.

Okay I hoped this was productive/helpful and stages are gonna be weird because some stages ZSS will win the MU by a bit and others Lucas wins on. Lucas should be banning Lylat and RC and maybe Norfair if it is Legal. While ZSS should be banning Brinstar (even though she does well on here Lucas is **** here), FO and maybe JJ. Also ZSS should try and not go to stages that extend Hitboxes. It hurts her more than helps. ZSS should be picking stages that get them to fight in the air the entire match. (i.e. RC, Norfair, Lylat) RC, Norfair and Lylat make the MU in her favor. Lucas gets his solid 55:45 however with Brinstar, Frigate (because of the edges for poor ZSS ;( ) and Jungle Japes is just bad for her, like really bad. The bad thing about ZSS's really good stages for Lucas is that Lucas doesn't do horrid on those really (besides Lylat which I hate with a passion). Also taking Lucas to either Smashville or Final Destination is not good for ZSS but it is good for ZSS to try and take him to Lylat, Battlefield, and uhm YI but that stage is pretty terridbad for both of them. (lol who gets to strike that stage first xD) Oh PS1 is good for both but ZSS does better on it. (I like PS2 for both =P) Lucas does well on Battlefield don't get me wrong but against ZSS it isn't good for him at all.

Stages tl;dr

Lucas Stage strike, cp, ban:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
CP: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes (<---try for JJ if it's legal)
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Norfair (anything with CRUISE in the name lol)

Zero Suit Samus Stage strike, cp, ban:
Strike: Smashville, Final Desintation, Yoshi's Island
CP: Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Norfair
Ban: Brinstar Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes (!!! This one if it's legal)

BTW since both characters are a rare breed this MU is rarely played =P. (still fun/close)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I played my region's best Lucas today in friendlies for a while and won a lot, and didn't lose much. It seemed very frustrating on his end. :\

Your aerials beat his only safe approach, lol. Lucas' up+b is annoying. Other stuff.

 

[Nefarious B]

Oats beat me in tourney recently (pools) Lucas vs ZS, though I'm not sure if either of us was trying hard since pools were already determined at that point. His dair can be annoying to space around even if we do beat it, I'd rather bait it as it has easy to punish end lag.

I find that shield is not very good in this matchup. We outspeed and outrange him, so in general you should be shielding less and trying to beat out his hitboxes with your own. His nair is very safe on shield as well since it has 12 hits (that shield poke surprisingly less than I thought that would I might add) and they usually DI behind us while it's hitting. You can just ftilt, dtilt, w/e while he's starting up with nair, usually it'll trade which means you only took 1% and gave more.

Uair OOS if he fairs yours.

His pivot grab has low end lag so they usually use that if they want to grab. It doesn't have the greatest range however so your aerial approaches can usually beat it.

I doubt he can punish a side b on shield, even PS

As long as you don't run into fsmash, in general you should live to atleast 120%. I found his uair and fair to be more reliable kill moves than his smashes once he built that percent.

 

[Dakpo]

because cross-country wifi brawl matches totally mean something lol

yup, people would Never play ANYTHING like the do on wifi, offline...nope not even a little silly me


I just played a really good lucas at the tourney yesterday. What i hate about this match up it his ability to get in close with short hopping air doge and then either jabbing or nair strings. it keeps you in your shield for a while if they do nair string. the Fsmash kills pretty low im not going to lie. A great thing to do against lucas and ness mains who chase you with up B when your recovering it to Uair it. Dodging it doesnt help much

Do we have a grab release combo of some sort on lucas? i know we do ness

 

[Nefarious B]

We can air release chain grab him and then ground release him, into dtilt is probably the most useful

 

[Chuee]

Of course, that is if you get a grab :D

 

[Nefarious B]

I don't think Lucas is particularly hard to grab

 

[Chuee]

You'd be surprised, plus your grab is slow

 

[Nefarious B]

What makes Lucas hard to grab? He doesn't have particularly great range, speed, or good landing mixups. Those are generally the things that would make it difficult

 

[Chuee]

He has decent range.
lol at not having good speed.
Landing mixups?
He doesn't need landing mixups when the aerials he'll be using all AC and your grab is ridic. slow.

 

[ph00tbag]

Anyone who does not think Lucas has good range has never actually seen a properly spaced ftilt or fair.

 

[Nefarious B]

He has average aerial speed, slowish ground speed. His ftilt has okay range, though his fair is excellent of course. You look at the rest of his moveset and dair is the only other one off the top of my head a great hitbox besides slow smashes

 

[NickRiddle]

Lucas loses at least 60:40.
I don't really want to express why now.
Just got back from a tournament.

 

[Dakpo]

pivot grab while lucas aerial approaches with anything and its a grab. Lucas is not hard to grab at all. Plus if we get a single Neutral B then its also a grab....trust me lucas is not hard to grab at all

 

[rPSIvysaur]

pivot grab while lucas aerial approaches with anything and its a grab. Lucas is not hard to grab at all. Plus if we get a single Neutral B then its also a grab....trust me lucas is not hard to grab at all

If you whiff one of those... lol. You can't freely be throwing out Pivot Grabs, you don't have a fast enough Pivot Grab to do that. Unlike us, where if you try to land near us, we'll pivot grab that.

I'm not going to try to put a ratio or anything on this MU, b/c I don't feel comfortable about knowing ZSS. But if there's anything you need to know about Lucas, just ask me.

Oh and for the record Lucas' air speed is better than ZSS'.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lucas should not be getting hit by a Neutral B. Lucas has Fsmash, Sheild, Magnet and Magnet Cancel to deal with it and it's slow.

"a Magnet Cancel is a selective IASA (interuptable as soon as) that occurs when Lucas absorbs a projectile with his PSI Magnet. This selective IASA can be canceled into a jump, sidestep, rolldodge or airdodge." -rPSI via aim.

Also Lucas can bat back ZSS' armor pieces and Neutral B with Fsmash which provides mixups.

 

[solecalibur]

Neutral B vs Lucas is semi viable just because we have the ability to uncharge it and bait for Lucas' Down B and realistically are you going to catch us with your down b every time we shoot? Even so what are your options when we shoot a neutral b at you and you have down b up , If you say Roll -) we have forward b, if you say shield we have grab , etc

And zss never loses an air game, lucas is not the exception

 

[rPSIvysaur]

He has average aerial speed, slowish ground speed. His ftilt has okay range, though his fair is excellent of course. You look at the rest of his moveset and dair is the only other one off the top of my head a great hitbox besides slow smashes

I was refering to this post when I said Lucas has better air speed. The thing abot having a higher air speed, is that it's harder for you to chase us down when we're in the air. I'd hardly consider having a high air speed determine who has a better air game, because indeed, it's the aerials the character has, otherwise MK would be a horrible aerial character. But just realize that since we have a higher air speed, that once we're in the air, you're not gaurenteed to get an aerial on us, as we should be retreating away from you in the air.

 

[#HBC | J]

Neutral B vs Lucas is semi viable just because we have the ability to uncharge it and bait for Lucas' Down B and realistically are you going to catch us with your down b every time we shoot? Even so what are your options when we shoot a neutral b at you and you have down b up , If you say Roll -) we have forward b, if you say shield we have grab , etc

And zss never loses an air game, lucas is not the exception

well Lucas can hit the paralyzer back if he knows it's coming. And ZSS could chase if Lucas jumps via Magnet Cancel im assuming.

but yea ZSS doesn't lose in the air it's just gonna be a little bit harder for her. =P

Oh and is there a vid of the AR CG?

 

[Nefarious B]

i don't really think batting it back is a viable option unless we're being predictable with it, fsmash isn't fast enough to do it on reaction unless you really know the animation.

And I never said ZS has good aerial speed, she also has average aerial speed. Unless you're high high up there in aerial acceleration, a little difference is just that, a little difference. I'm not sure how fast Lucas falls, but that's a very big factor when considering how ***** you'll be by our aerial game.

However, as you have probably heard repeated all the time lately, staying on the ground is the smartest thing people can do against ZS, so when I said slow I guess I should refine it to say that you're slow where it matters most in the matchup, ground speed.

 

[Dakpo]

lol Jbandit you say this as though your lucas is perfect and will predict every single move in every situation. Of course any character can shield and dodge grabs and what not but that does not mean they will. Trust me if we want to grab lucas we freakin will XD there is no way you can stop every single grab, end of discussion on grabbing lucas plz

 

[#HBC | J]

oh goodnesss im so sorry if I seem that way. ^^"

I, in no way, think my Lucas is perfect . I think mine sucks tbqh. Im just listing options that could happen. ZSS has options that help her grab like the paralyzer and Dsmash. But yea the grabbing discussion is a little old now =/ Sorry Dakpo x_x

Anyways on a brighter note I found some good ZSS vs. Lucas vids. ;D Sole vs. Tyr and they are close. matches. I also found some on Nick vs. Galeon but i don't wanna post without asking first ;P

Sole (Zero Suit Samus) vs. Tyr (Lucas) - vid 1 *2 matches*
Sole(Zero Suit Samus) vs. Tyr (Lucas) vid 2 *1 match*

 

[solecalibur]

I didnt know it was this thread lol , wish I recorded the set I won

 

[Chuee]

._.
ZSS shouldn't even be going for grabs that often in this MU unless she knows it will land (Dsmash, Stun)
The risk is too great.
If you miss. Have fun losing your stock at like 80%. Or taking 30%.
If it lands.
Congrats! You get like 15-20%.
(Can ZSS get an Uair out of release here like she can with MK?)

 

[Dakpo]

._.
ZSS shouldn't even be going for grabs that often in this MU unless she knows it will land (Dsmash, Stun)

If you miss. Have fun losing your stock at like 80%. Or taking 30%.
If it lands.
Congrats! You get like 15-20%.

i totally agree with this statement, now lets move on about the grabbing thing ok?
and i honestly dont think we can grab release uair like we can on meta

 

[Chuee]

What stages does ZSS like to CP?

 

[solecalibur]

BF , Halberd , PS1

maybe brinstar if your ballzy

 

[#HBC | J]

for against Lucas i say air stages and it's pretty much ZSS's game.

RC, Halberd, Norfair come to mind. But yea BF and PS1 are fav cps of mine. (well PS2 for me but im weird cuz I actually like that stage for ZSS )

 

[Ex-Dove]

I never use down b to get on stage when fighting a lucas because in my experience they always get that dumb usmash on me. That's all I know. xD;

 

[#HBC | J]

i would think this MU is about discussed but i wanna hear what NR has to say first .-.

Also could we do weegee next? idk what to do in that MU but i play it alot and dont do bad at all.

 

[solecalibur]

Ratios that most of us can agree on
I say 55/45 zss/lucas tbh

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS beats Lucas solidly.

At least 60:40.

You cannot camp us.
We outspace your spacing moves.
Neither of us can really edgeguard.

Our entire game is keep your out of your melee range, which isn't hard when your best spacer loses to 2-3 of ours.
PK Fire is annoying, but once you learn the range of it, you can just move outside the range. If it didn't kick you back, it'd be more of a threat.

If we go out and try to edgeguard you, in my experience, we're going to lose a stock. I have successfully edgeguarded Galeon... probably 1-2 times, and we've played basically since Brawl came out.
I hae been edgeguarded more than that, but that was before I got really good at recovering. It doesn't happen very often, if ever, anymore.

If we can avoid your smashes, we'll live to stupid %s. The only one to really worry about is f-smash. (And doing stupid airdodges into u-smash, but only I am dumb enough to do that.)

Learn Lucas's range, and he's cake.

60:40 on not-bad Lucas stages.
65:35 on bad Lucas stages. (LIke RC.)

 

[solecalibur]

I can agree with 60/40 but 65/35 seems a bit harsh , Lemme see if I can get some of the lucas boards here unless jbandit wants to do that for me =D

 

[Chuee]

Im here :D
Uhh 65-35 does sound harsh =/
I could maybe see it on RC, but we have a ban :D
I'd say 60-40 overall
55-45 on really good Lucas stages
65-35 on dumb ZSS stages (RC)

 

[#HBC | J]

ill get some more lucas in if I can =p

i cant agree with 60:40 but ill input more when i get back from my day out relaxing ^_^

ill agree to 55:45 ZSS wins though but this just imo lol