NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Why isn't it 60/40?
What can Lucas do to ZSS?
Other than kill her earlier.
What can Lucas do to ZSS?
Other than kill her earlier.
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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread
- Thread starter TheZeroSuit
- Start date
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
How is 65:35 harsh if the top of the mu (nick vs galeon) is 65 in favor of nick out of 100 matches lolol
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
nah, that's just us Lucas' being optimistic. Also known as low tier syndrome. TBH 60:40 to us sounds like a 50:50 b/c how often the MU's are 60:40.
Blech, I just hate MU ratios b/c they express the MU quantitatively instead of qualitative.
Blech, I just hate MU ratios b/c they express the MU quantitatively instead of qualitative.
Basically what rPSI said I'm just optimistic (too much lol)
but on our stages it's 55:45. RC is terribad for Lucas in this MU. But what we have is killing (as you said NR) being a hazard for ZSS to try and gimp him. Uhm I think in our MU thread when DMG did his section said we can run from her. (uhhhm idk how lol) however we cannot camp her/gimp her
I feel like I'm grasping at straws now lol x3 I change my mind after thinking more like a ZSS 60:40 sounds a bit right.
Sorry for sounding stubborn ^^"
but on our stages it's 55:45. RC is terribad for Lucas in this MU. But what we have is killing (as you said NR) being a hazard for ZSS to try and gimp him. Uhm I think in our MU thread when DMG did his section said we can run from her. (uhhhm idk how lol) however we cannot camp her/gimp her
I feel like I'm grasping at straws now lol x3 I change my mind after thinking more like a ZSS 60:40 sounds a bit right.
Sorry for sounding stubborn ^^"
Uhhhhhhhhhhh
Maybe juggle her with a few Uairs at low %. Other than that nothing
Oh, and DMG too good.
Whenever I play a ZSS Im going for the timeout >:D
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Hooray! So, 60/40?Uhhhhhhhhhhh
Maybe juggle her with a few Uairs at low %. Other than that nothing
Oh, and DMG too good.
Whenever I play a ZSS Im going for the timeout >:D
Galeon
Smash Ace
Iunno, I dont think Lucas takes the **** that bad. Nick does know the matchup and so do I but his opinion on it seems a little.. biased?
65:35 probably would reflect how our matches go but it's ****ing NickRiddle >_>. It's actually a matchup where Lucas has an answer to just about everything.
Dsmash can be absorbed for like 23%. Side-B can be punished with simple run blocks or if u do it early enough, fsmash. Dash attacks get punished by 20% dairs into followups (if ur at 65%+, could very well be your stock) and she's light enough that reads mean she dies at lol numbers.
The only thing that's gay is when she tries to sit on a lead. You gotta make unsafe guesses to get in. But when Lucas is in his ftilt range, ZSS cant do much to outspeed or stop him from pressuring. Unsafe options liek SS'ing, utilting or rolling to get him out of your face can get punished hard. I'd say its 55-45 or 60-40 for ZSS jsut cause she can play defense or offense really well against Lucas and he's kind of forced into bulldogging the whole match or hoping she eats pk fires with aggressive spacing. I'm personally leaning to 55-45 but I could understand 60-40.
65:35 probably would reflect how our matches go but it's ****ing NickRiddle >_>. It's actually a matchup where Lucas has an answer to just about everything.
Dsmash can be absorbed for like 23%. Side-B can be punished with simple run blocks or if u do it early enough, fsmash. Dash attacks get punished by 20% dairs into followups (if ur at 65%+, could very well be your stock) and she's light enough that reads mean she dies at lol numbers.
The only thing that's gay is when she tries to sit on a lead. You gotta make unsafe guesses to get in. But when Lucas is in his ftilt range, ZSS cant do much to outspeed or stop him from pressuring. Unsafe options liek SS'ing, utilting or rolling to get him out of your face can get punished hard. I'd say its 55-45 or 60-40 for ZSS jsut cause she can play defense or offense really well against Lucas and he's kind of forced into bulldogging the whole match or hoping she eats pk fires with aggressive spacing. I'm personally leaning to 55-45 but I could understand 60-40.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
If you keep punishing with Dair we can just SDI lol
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I only said 65:35 on stupid stages.
Like Rainbow Cruise.
I'd go with 55:45 if the ZSS tries to go out and gets killed for edgeguarding.
Without that, it's basically 60:40. :D
IMO.
If it's at locking %. At % where it doesn't lock I don't think you can SDI it =/
Someone who knows for sure correct me if Im wrong.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
I would think our dtilt vs Lucas' ftilt for grounded spacing would be a pretty even matchup. If you get caught shielding the ftilt then yes our OOS options are limited.
Nick do you just charge a dsmash to intercept the up b then instead of edgeguarding?
Nick do you just charge a dsmash to intercept the up b then instead of edgeguarding?
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
On certain angles downBkick is a pretty cool edgeguard.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Well, I mix up between charging d-smash and grabbing the edge. This makes it harder for Lucas to know which way to recover. Also, if I see Lucas likes going on stage, I'll just stand at the dge, react to the angle, run back, and bair Lucas back off.
Good times.
TheZeroSuit
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2008
- Messages
- 65
We seem to have an agreement on 60/40 (with the exception of Nick Riddle) , So I will leave it at 60/40
Next Up
Ike
Im going to start off by saying dont miss a grab
edit - I am getting rid of Ørion's MU thread in the OP as it isnt really up to date with our meta game as of now
(link = http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164587 )
Next Up
Ike
Im going to start off by saying dont miss a grab
edit - I am getting rid of Ørion's MU thread in the OP as it isnt really up to date with our meta game as of now
(link = http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164587 )
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
*pokes head in*
Saw Ike in the topic title while scrolling down to the Brawl Stage Discussion. The Ike boards believe the MU is 40-60 from Ike's perspective/60-40 ZSS's advantage, however you want to look at it. Nick needs to play against San if he hasn't already. That is all.
*leaves*
Saw Ike in the topic title while scrolling down to the Brawl Stage Discussion. The Ike boards believe the MU is 40-60 from Ike's perspective/60-40 ZSS's advantage, however you want to look at it. Nick needs to play against San if he hasn't already. That is all.
*leaves*
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I played San in friendlies. Lost them both.
I had no idea jab cancel > f-tilt was a combo, nor that it killed at 85.
No johns, I'd have to play him more to see the exact ration.
other than him, it's 60:40 ZSS, or worse.
I had no idea jab cancel > f-tilt was a combo, nor that it killed at 85.
No johns, I'd have to play him more to see the exact ration.
other than him, it's 60:40 ZSS, or worse.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Jab -> Ftilt isn't a combo. >_> Jab 1 only has 11 frames of hitstun. Ftilt comes out like frame 18.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
It is if you try to grab the ledge instead of dodge.
:D
Ussi
Smash Legend
Whelp, i'm not one to discuss numbers outside the Ike boards so here is my input on fighting Ike:
Ike can predict how you plan to gimp him pretty solidly. If you are far away its pretty much guaranteed you're gonna side B (if you fsmash lol). Ike can QD to the ledge then relatively safety. If you get closer to deal with QD then Ike can aether more safely so Ike can mix up with QD and Aether relatively well, of course depending on where Ike gets hit. If you try to intercept Ike offstage, well.. Side B has a long start up to react to so it's easily avoided, your best bet is to play a bait game with fair or bair. However there are some spots where Ike will have only one option and therefore you can pretty much deal with that.
Now to be cool, you should dsmash x two > down B Spike on noob Ike's that don't recover properly
(though only probable to do it when there isn't a slant ledge, this is a pure showboating thing i just said though xD I want them noob Ike's to learn the hard way)
on stage, ZSS has a frame 1 jab, but since her jab combo doesn't link so either Ike will jab you out of it or PS it then jab or grab you. Since your grab is pitifully slow, Ike can jab your shield consistently. But you can OoS jab a jab canceling Ike on your shield, be fast with that or you'll eat the jab. (you have like 1-2 frames)
If you have a habit to dsmash twice on someone's shield, Ike can utilt or ftilt you away, or bair if you're behind Ike. Yea OoS bair Ike's heaviest punisher, be careful of that.
If you get aether spiked, time your jump carefully then down B back to either a footstool jump or at least a chance to Up B Ike down with you, and if you are getting aether spiked out of that, then you're dead pretty much.
The MU itself is a spacing game between speed and power. ZSS can get in fast while playing the spacing mindgame. Juggle Ike as Ike has really no aerials to stop uair from close up, so its a guessing game in your favor. Her 1 frame jab really is a pain for Ike as it interrupts his jab cancels if he is too slow with them. And due to reaction lag you can "combo" with your own jab canceled moves.
What keeps Ike in this game is the fact that after 5-6 jab cancels/combos and you're at killing % already.
Ike can predict how you plan to gimp him pretty solidly. If you are far away its pretty much guaranteed you're gonna side B (if you fsmash lol). Ike can QD to the ledge then relatively safety. If you get closer to deal with QD then Ike can aether more safely so Ike can mix up with QD and Aether relatively well, of course depending on where Ike gets hit. If you try to intercept Ike offstage, well.. Side B has a long start up to react to so it's easily avoided, your best bet is to play a bait game with fair or bair. However there are some spots where Ike will have only one option and therefore you can pretty much deal with that.
Now to be cool, you should dsmash x two > down B Spike on noob Ike's that don't recover properly
(though only probable to do it when there isn't a slant ledge, this is a pure showboating thing i just said though xD I want them noob Ike's to learn the hard way)on stage, ZSS has a frame 1 jab, but since her jab combo doesn't link so either Ike will jab you out of it or PS it then jab or grab you. Since your grab is pitifully slow, Ike can jab your shield consistently. But you can OoS jab a jab canceling Ike on your shield, be fast with that or you'll eat the jab. (you have like 1-2 frames)
If you have a habit to dsmash twice on someone's shield, Ike can utilt or ftilt you away, or bair if you're behind Ike. Yea OoS bair Ike's heaviest punisher, be careful of that.
If you get aether spiked, time your jump carefully then down B back to either a footstool jump or at least a chance to Up B Ike down with you, and if you are getting aether spiked out of that, then you're dead pretty much.
The MU itself is a spacing game between speed and power. ZSS can get in fast while playing the spacing mindgame. Juggle Ike as Ike has really no aerials to stop uair from close up, so its a guessing game in your favor. Her 1 frame jab really is a pain for Ike as it interrupts his jab cancels if he is too slow with them. And due to reaction lag you can "combo" with your own jab canceled moves.
What keeps Ike in this game is the fact that after 5-6 jab cancels/combos and you're at killing % already.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
You can d-smash Ike when he uses either quick-draw or aether.
Just throwing that out there.
Just throwing that out there.
Ussi
Smash Legend
On a slant, Ike can aether into the stage then back to the ledge where dsmash wouldn't be in range, though side B would make short work of that so its a mix up game.
If its FD or a ledge like that then yea, dsmash can handle aether, just watch out of Ike coming on stage, but if you shield aether landing onstage then a free dsmash anyways.
If its FD or a ledge like that then yea, dsmash can handle aether, just watch out of Ike coming on stage, but if you shield aether landing onstage then a free dsmash anyways.
solecalibur
Smash Master
I'm on vacation so I can test this but what moves hit ike out of his Up b?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
if ike has to recover below the stage and fails to sweetspot the ledge side-b is guaranteed every time, lol.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Perfectly spaced d-smash outranges the spinning sword, and hits Ike.
Want a list?
Fair, Bair, Uair, D-smash, side-b, grab, dair, flip-kick (the two spikes aren't easy)
So is d-smash.
Nobody believes me.
oh yay Ike! I have such trouble against good Ikes x_x Just because ZSS is light and punishments are deadly at high percentages. (I haaaate powerhouses :s)
But from what i've played, 60:40 ZSS wins. (oh gee another LT with this MU but the previous blonde was cooler x3) I gotta agree with Nick on the Dsmash can be hit just like Side-B on his recovery and it's useful as heck.
Ike's sheer power is annoying. But ZSS juggles Ike nicely, can gimp him with kindof ease, and her jab is a blessing. Air = ZSS wins obviously, Ground = ima say Ike because of KB and power plus that jab thingy he does is annoying but she can interrupt it with Jab, Offstage = ZSS 10x. ZSS' speed comes much into this MU to annoy Ike.
Pieces are really good here and I tend to actually keep more than 1. Pros and cons to this?
But from what i've played, 60:40 ZSS wins. (oh gee another LT with this MU but the previous blonde was cooler x3) I gotta agree with Nick on the Dsmash can be hit just like Side-B on his recovery and it's useful as heck.
Ike's sheer power is annoying. But ZSS juggles Ike nicely, can gimp him with kindof ease, and her jab is a blessing. Air = ZSS wins obviously, Ground = ima say Ike because of KB and power plus that jab thingy he does is annoying but she can interrupt it with Jab, Offstage = ZSS 10x. ZSS' speed comes much into this MU to annoy Ike.
Pieces are really good here and I tend to actually keep more than 1. Pros and cons to this?
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
You're saying that there is a spot where ZSS is far enough back that Ike can't hit her with aether by being on the very edge of the slope under the stage, but can still hit him while he's flying up to the ledge? He moves quite a bit when doing that. I've never heard of that happening in a match, at least from my side of things. Any time I've heard of an Ike being hit with Dsmash out of Aether, it was due to bad spacing, or being on a stage like FD. >_>
Teh Brettster
Smash Master
THE CRAP IS WRONG WITH YOUR THREAD?
Anyway.
I could see Dsmash maybe hitting out of Aether on FD, but stages like SV, BF, YI, and really anything else won't happen because we'll be able to move the sword to hit you further on the stage. In such a case, you should be using your side B, no? Either way, ZSS has tools to be a real jerk to Ike's recovery. She's also a VERY difficult character for Ike to punish. Fsmash will never be used by Ike in this match, and Usmash rarely.
This is just a tough match-up for Ike, really. She's light, yeah, but she's a really solid character and it's hard to get in on her.
I've played a few good Zero Suits and I'll get them to one stock, but it's tough and most of the time, they won. I think there are things I have yet to really figure out about the match-up (all I've figured out is that ZSS likes to use charged Dsmash for anti-air (lol?) and I can just come down and counter that), but as I see it right now, I think ZSS is one of the harder matches for Ike.
I think this is a 65-35 in your favor.
Anyway.
I could see Dsmash maybe hitting out of Aether on FD, but stages like SV, BF, YI, and really anything else won't happen because we'll be able to move the sword to hit you further on the stage. In such a case, you should be using your side B, no? Either way, ZSS has tools to be a real jerk to Ike's recovery. She's also a VERY difficult character for Ike to punish. Fsmash will never be used by Ike in this match, and Usmash rarely.
This is just a tough match-up for Ike, really. She's light, yeah, but she's a really solid character and it's hard to get in on her.
I've played a few good Zero Suits and I'll get them to one stock, but it's tough and most of the time, they won. I think there are things I have yet to really figure out about the match-up (all I've figured out is that ZSS likes to use charged Dsmash for anti-air (lol?) and I can just come down and counter that), but as I see it right now, I think ZSS is one of the harder matches for Ike.
I think this is a 65-35 in your favor.
Many attacks can hit aether, but on most stages bar FD, a well spaced aether is hard to hit unless it's an aerial with very good range from above. That being said, I may be able to see ZSS dashing and trying to get a quick aerial in. ZSS can mess Ike up from the ledge on a stage like FD.
Close quarters, ZSS lightness, among other things I believe have mostly been touched upon a bit brings it more towards 60:40 for ZSS. I'm still somewhat on the fence. It could be worse, but at the moment I'm not really seeing it.
Close quarters, ZSS lightness, among other things I believe have mostly been touched upon a bit brings it more towards 60:40 for ZSS. I'm still somewhat on the fence. It could be worse, but at the moment I'm not really seeing it.
solecalibur
Smash Master
Other then FD what stages would you suggest we ban / strike / Cp?
I only have played Ike's recently that charge smashes so I have no real input for this MU
I only have played Ike's recently that charge smashes so I have no real input for this MU
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
I haven't played any amazing Ike's, though the ones I did play were respectable. I seem to remember being able to shield grab pretty well.
From what I could tell this Ike liked to retreat his fairs in the air then jab to cover as I would dash in to punish. I could dash grab but the spacing is hard. I think it'd probably be better to just force them to keep retreating until they run out of stage and once you corner him try and knock him off and edguard.
I'm not sure how difficult Ike's nair is to punish on shield. I have a feeling our uair OOS would probably be able to pretty well.
Not to sure but this does seem like a 60-40 or 65-35, I don't really know enough to determine
From what I could tell this Ike liked to retreat his fairs in the air then jab to cover as I would dash in to punish. I could dash grab but the spacing is hard. I think it'd probably be better to just force them to keep retreating until they run out of stage and once you corner him try and knock him off and edguard.
I'm not sure how difficult Ike's nair is to punish on shield. I have a feeling our uair OOS would probably be able to pretty well.
Not to sure but this does seem like a 60-40 or 65-35, I don't really know enough to determine
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Nair has only a few frames of landing lag, and we aren't going to be using Nair on top of you but as a retreating move like Fair, so I believe it would be fairly difficult to punish.
As for stages: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10633852#post10633852 There is something to work with.
As for stages: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10633852#post10633852 There is something to work with.
solecalibur
Smash Master
So I see
FD SV halberd delfino YI and Frigate seem to be ok stages (incase someone looks back at this thread and the one you linked it a dead link)
FD as the worst for ike (possibly picto chat? its flat but the edge isnt as janky but you have no edges to hog)
I see us being CP'd to
Pirate ship , BF , Brinstar (dont see a problem with brinstar or BF honestly) , Norfair , green greens
Am i getting this right?
FD SV halberd delfino YI and Frigate seem to be ok stages (incase someone looks back at this thread and the one you linked it a dead link)
FD as the worst for ike (possibly picto chat? its flat but the edge isnt as janky but you have no edges to hog)
I see us being CP'd to
Pirate ship , BF , Brinstar (dont see a problem with brinstar or BF honestly) , Norfair , green greens
Am i getting this right?
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
A good start at least. I wouldn't mind taking a ZSS to Delfino, Halbred, or YI really, though I would be aiming for those other stages besides BF. Probably put PS1 in there for the more conservative areas.
solecalibur
Smash Master
I personally hate YI so I cant speak for that stage but Halberd is a ok stage as I can kill Ike vertically quickly and easily and Delfino has a lot of transformations that keep the stage flat / semi flat I personally think Ike and the water game is quite overrated
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ike has Jab 1 -> Utilt for vertical kills. I don't think ZSS would enjoy that on Halberd. Ike has one of the best water games, with or without spiking. Fair outranges most options other characters can pull out in the water. Bair is still good in the water as well.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
I don't see why we just... wouldn't go in the water?
Does jab to utilt true combo? That's pretty ****, good to know
Does jab to utilt true combo? That's pretty ****, good to know
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
It's either a true combo, or off by like 1-2 frames. I don't remember exactly. >_< Jab 1 has 11 frames of hitstun, Utilt is either frame 11 or 13, that's the part I can't remember and I'm too lazy to look up as I'm about to get some sleep. I'm starting to slip in my "remember every single possible thing" method for discussing Ike.
And it's possible to force a water to water battle (why hello there knocking you off stage at the right time at Delfino), so it should be at least noted as a risk on that stage.
And it's possible to force a water to water battle (why hello there knocking you off stage at the right time at Delfino), so it should be at least noted as a risk on that stage.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Jab has 13 frames of an advantage ONLY if the other person doesn't jump. If they jump then jab has only 7 frames of hitstun, however due to reaction lag and floatness of some characters, if they don't jump then they suffer landing lag as well, as jab knocked them in the air which makes utilt pretty legit at times. For faster fallers Ike would have to jab > jab to make them suffer landing lag.
Also jab 1 > jab 1 is the only guaranteed combo Ike has out of jab. Jab > grab has 1 frame if you jump, however without an invincible UpB you can't really get out unless Ike messes up the timing
Water isn't too overrated, Ike can still hit you there. And then you'll be in a predicament cause trying to go over Ike can get you either aether'd or Usmash baited. Just its a big emphasis on Ike has to hit you there, since ZSS tends to have the advantage on paper it shouldn't be too bad, however if you are counterpicking (implies you lost the last round) I would be warned
(Of course if its the first match cause its a 9 starter stage list then by all means nevermind what i said)
For counterpicking, first CP the player then the character. As a character though, best stage to CP Ike would be FD and frigate for his recovery is easy pickings there. There is no slant on either of those stages for Ike to aether on. RC can work, just RC isn't actually bad as Ike has no need to aether most of the time unless he didn't keep up with the stage. I'm not saying its not a good CP to use against Ike, Ike can end up getting trapped harder than normal. However for 2/3s of the RC, its really hard to get gimped.
Also jab 1 > jab 1 is the only guaranteed combo Ike has out of jab. Jab > grab has 1 frame if you jump, however without an invincible UpB you can't really get out unless Ike messes up the timing
Water isn't too overrated, Ike can still hit you there. And then you'll be in a predicament cause trying to go over Ike can get you either aether'd or Usmash baited. Just its a big emphasis on Ike has to hit you there, since ZSS tends to have the advantage on paper it shouldn't be too bad, however if you are counterpicking (implies you lost the last round) I would be warned
(Of course if its the first match cause its a 9 starter stage list then by all means nevermind what i said)
For counterpicking, first CP the player then the character. As a character though, best stage to CP Ike would be FD and frigate for his recovery is easy pickings there. There is no slant on either of those stages for Ike to aether on. RC can work, just RC isn't actually bad as Ike has no need to aether most of the time unless he didn't keep up with the stage. I'm not saying its not a good CP to use against Ike, Ike can end up getting trapped harder than normal. However for 2/3s of the RC, its really hard to get gimped.