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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

Blakmane

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ROFL pro trolling Xonar... even managed to get the thread locked! Lucky you weren't banned though :-).

Looks like bowser is pretty straightforward. Do people think 70-30 or 65-35?
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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Yeah Oli is def even or like 55:45 in his advantage. Diddy should move to even too, he's 55:45 imo, it's just that you need extremely good knowledge of the MU, Diddy's options and especially yours.
 

Blakmane

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Where is the olimar discussion? It's not linked properly in the first page (nothing seems to be?). I'm curious as to how that decision was made.
 

Latias

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Where is the olimar discussion? It's not linked properly in the first page (nothing seems to be?). I'm curious as to how that decision was made.
snakee: its 6;4 Zss
everyone else: its 55:45 olimar

conclusion: snakee says, we do.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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Wut

No it was back in the time when sideB was useful, so we actually were able to get Olimar off the stage and edgehog like a pro
 

Blakmane

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Probably worth putting a ???? back in MU's over 2 years old IMO. ZSS metagame has changed massively over that period, so the MU's are going to be pretty different
 

Flayl

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The bowser discussion so far is ****ing awful. I'd recommend skipping onto the next character.

And for both our sakes never use that SFP video again... The Bowser is really bad, like, worse than me bad.
 

Blakmane

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The point of a MU discussion is to actually reach some resolution, Flayl. If you have more to offer to the thread, then please by all means contribute.

There's not much debate swinging around here (like there was with the peach MU, for instance) partly because the MU is pretty straightforwardly in ZSS's favour. It's more a matter of how much an advantage she has which is at stake. That's very difficult to guage, especially as there has been very little bowser input so far.

*edit*

Unless bowsers are aware of something i'm not, I doubt this is a 70:30 MU, especially after looking at your charts. 70:30 implies there is something which either entirely shuts down a character's game, or can lead to easy low % stocks (falco/ZSS in the former, ZSS/ROB in the latter). I don't think we have anything like that on bowser. Your MU chart agrees that ZSS is definitely a disadvantage, although us ZSS mains are trying to argue it's a bit more than 60:40.. more like 65:35.
 

solecalibur

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Maybe it clanks with side b and that's what you're thinking of? That's a possibility, but our side b outranges
That was what I meant, my bad


and the olimar MU is still 50/50 or 60/40 zss its easy but the topic is bowser


uair and outspace the crap out of him , zss doesnt normally have good MUs like this but this one is kind of amazing
 

Latias

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Maybe it clanks with side b and that's what you're thinking of? That's a possibility, but our side b outranges
That was what I meant, my bad


and the olimar MU is still 50/50 or 60/40 zss its easy but the topic is bowser


uair and outspace the crap out of him , zss doesnt normally have good MUs like this but this one is kind of amazing
50 50 and 60 40 are alot different, tbh its 55-45 oli
 

Flayl

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Blakmane: Why discuss a matchup if it's completely irrelevant? Until someone on this board manages to produce evidence they've played a Bowser better than me (out of the Bowsers that know what they're doing I'm worst or tied for worst), screw ratios or theorycrafting discussion.

I'll say this though, ZSS does have an easy time juggling Bowser, spacing DTilt is good and Bowser shouldn't be klaw hopping as an approach, he'll rely more on FTilt. That's all I can give you for sure out of the ZSS I have played with. The matchup is in ZSS's advantage of course, but beingmore specific than that requires two competent mains to play each other.
 

Nefarious B

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Blakmane it's a work in progress, I'm trying to change the links so that they can be viewed with any page count, at the moment most of them are only usable with the 40 posts per page setting, and some of them are no where to be found. I'm trying to have it fully functional by the end of the week.

Flayl I wasn't posting that vid to show high level play lol, just showing that our CG can be used to put bowser in a very bad position, which is the truth. If Bowser is trying to sweetspot the ledge, couldn't we just time a ledge snap? I'm not sure if his up b would outlast our invincibility though

And Latias that is a very old matchup discussion, I've had issues with it for a year and a half now and it will probably be one of our first rediscussions once we finish low tier. It's somewhere in the even range, I personally lean towards 55-45 olimar as well
 

B!squick

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Lol, I agree Flayl, Bowser discussion has been pretty lulz so far and that vid, even if it was just for the "combo", might as well have featured different characters. Not that any of this matters because no one plays Bowser.

But anyway, shields are one of the few things mentioned that was relevant. ZSS's SideB is safe against Bowser's shield, Bowser's UpB shouldn't be hitting you and if it does, space better.

The ISJR with Klaw would never be used if the player has ANY sense.

A grab is one of Bowser's few advantages. One could easily lead to a lost stock.

That's about it, sadly. Klaw can be pretty disgusting and ZSS likes to stand straight up making the aerial Klaw deadly if you're not careful.
 
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That video was just to show off the CG, sasook isn't a Bowser main and I'm sure if he could post here he'd tell you that he isn't very good with him.

In any case, it isn't a 0-death, but Bowser only has one recovery option, and that is to drop low and sweetspot the ledge with up+b. This is similar to the Falco CG on Link etc in that it is escapable by DI and teching, but if the Falco doesn't spike and you attempt that, you die anyway.

I don't think it's a huge factor in the match-up, but Bowser is very easy to grab compared to a lot of the cast. Many of his moves are laggy on shield and can be shieldgrabbed, even some moves that many other cast members CAN'T.

Bowser is for whatever reason dash attack locked and chaingrabbed by ZSS for a wider percentage window than any character, which is hilarious. Bowser can be dash attack locked at like 25% until 70%+. This is kind of a big deal IMO because it makes mistakes near the edges of the stage very bad for Bowser, especially laggy mistakes. Dash Attack is a fantastic punish in this match-up.

Bowser's claw-hop camping is annoying because ZSS is really tall. It is especially annoying on Battlefield, but the stage is still better for ZSS overall because Bowser is really big and easy to juggle through platforms. Uair strings on bowser are very effective.

Of course Bowser will die late. His recovery is often underestimated; generally speaking you won't gimp a Bowser that is recovering smart unless you manage to footstool him during his second jump (not super likely) or he doesn't sweetspot with up+b. I recommend keeping a kill move fresh (probably fair) or we're talking 200%+ deaths from Bowser. Pressuring him offstage is effective, but only if you predict his second jump. I don't think any aerial but uair beats his up-b.

Bowser can exploit ZSS' bad shield pressure game because up+b out of shield is really ugly. As a result it is probably better to try to force Bowser to approach. This isn't that hard. Bowser's claw-hop camp game is effective but I BELIEVE is easily beaten with a simple usmash, repeatedly and effectively.

Fair is really annoying when spaced well, but I think dtilt beats it and is probably ZSS" best ground option.

I would give a large advantage to ZSS in this match-up at 7/3 or worse. Bowser's fat, lack of aerial options, mediocre ground game (even ZSS' is probably as good), and weakness to CGs, locks, and easy damage strings make this one of ZSS' easier match-ups.
 

Darky-Sama

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Supermodel From Paris basically covered everything I was gonna say.

ZSS has the advantage almost both ways.
Camping and spacing: Her options greatly outrank Bowser's options.
Aggressive and offensively: Bowser is generally a large target that is ridiculously easy to pressure. I'm sure Bowser might have some OoS options that could pose as a 'slight' problem for ZSS up close, but even then it's difficult for him, without a doubt.

70:30 sounds about right to me as well.

Bowser should try to avoid the buffered chaingrab -> Down+B spike too. Even though most were friendlies, I can't even count how many times I've gotten quick kills against Bowser mains with that string.
 

swordgard

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KKong is over here and hes saying that he would be willing to MM any ZSS 5$ at apex, we are both convinced its nearly even. You guys are overestimating how easy it is to both camp bowser, approach his shield, use side-B safely(when fair ***** side b), how easy it is to kill him too. Bowser has the tools to not get killed until very late, especially since ZSS cannot effectively land any kill move even on mistakes like airdodging into the ground.
 

Rybaia

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For 90% of Bowser mains almost every mu is even for some lulzy reasons.
And lol at "ZSS cannot effecively land any kill move".
 

Rybaia

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why do people still think ZSS has no kill moves? It's like we really are living in 2008
The real question is: why people still think that ZSS cannot land any kill move?
swordgard actually I'm not questioning Kkong skill level, I'm questioning his (and your) toughts about the mu.
 

solecalibur

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I would take him up on that MM if I KNEW the MU , Im not gonna walk in fighting the considered best bowser not knowing the MU at all, but seriously you guys are still on the you can power shield everything BS about zss still? That was 5 months ago complaint
 

Flayl

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KingKong's view on matchups is the exception rather than the rule... Thought I would point that out.
 

Dakpo

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KKong is over here and hes saying that he would be willing to MM any ZSS 5$ at apex, we are both convinced its nearly even. You guys are overestimating how easy it is to both camp bowser, approach his shield, use side-B safely(when fair ***** side b), how easy it is to kill him too. Bowser has the tools to not get killed until very late, especially since ZSS cannot effectively land any kill move even on mistakes like airdodging into the ground.
hahahahhahaha.*wipes tears* even ?
no freakin way. Is bowser even with mk too?
If this is the same kKong on aib that mains bowser than i have beaten him every time we played and i doubt offline would be much different
 

Vex Kasrani

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hahahahhahaha.*wipes tears* even ?
no freakin way. Is bowser even with mk too?
If this is the same kKong on aib that mains bowser than i have beaten him every time we played and i doubt offline would be much different
ZSS =/= MK

And accept the challenge if you feel its so easy, although I think its an awful matchup myself.
 
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