Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[TheZeroSuit]

Introduction

It has generally been concluded that Snakeee's thread should be combined into a more comprehensive and complete guide. This will also give us a chance to go over any information that is outdated or lacking and fill in the gaps.

Anyways, let's get on to the good stuff.

Alright, so I changed up OP to neaten things up since we've got a few match-ups already under our belt. It works pretty easy, check the ratio chart to look for the numbers, and if you want to know how to beat that character, just click on the name. You'll be zipped off to a match-up summary, which also happens to be the post that began the discussion (if you want to read how we came to that conclusion).

I've now also changed the format of the character guides. I will now assume that everyone that reads this thread knows ZSS basic strategy (how to approach, juggle, recover, etc.). If you do not, please see The ZSS Board Guide. This change was made to help focus on match-up specific information and not repeat basic ZSS knowledge across every match-up guide.​

IF YOU ARE HAVING TROUBLE FOLLOWING THE LINKS, TRY CHANGING YOUR SETTINGS TO 40 POSTS PER PAGE

Current Discussion:

R.O.B.










Ratio Chart:

Large Advantage (70+):

• Bowser
• R.O.B.
• Ivysaur
  

Advantage (60-65):

• Yoshi
• Lucas
• Ike
• Luigi
• Link
• Toon Link
• Mr. Game and Watch Discussion at post 139
• Olimar
• King Dedede
• Sonic
• Pokemon Trainer
• Charizard
  
• Ice Climbers
  
• Kirby
  

Even (45-55):

• Peach
• Fox
• Wolf
• Pit
• Sheik
• Donkey Kong
• Pikachu
• Marth
• Wario
• Meta Knight
• Snake
• Ness
• Lucario

Disadvantage (35-40):

• Diddy Kong
• Squirtle
  

Large Disadvantage (30-):

• Falco

Format:

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Final Verdict:​

Matchup Advice:

• Exploiting Strengths:
  
  
  
• Minimizing Weaknesses:
  
  
  
• Suitpiece Strategy:
  
  
  
• Approach Alterations:
  
  
  
• In the Air:
  
  
  
• Attacks to Look for:
  • xxxx
    Description:
    How to Counter/Avoid:
    DI: 0°
    SDI: 0°
  
  
• How to Edgeguard:
  
  
  
• How to Recover:
  
  
  
• Special Information:
  
  
  
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
• Stages to Avoid:

<character> Contributors:

xxxx​

<character>'s Thread​

 

[TheZeroSuit]

Snake Summary

SNAKE

Strengths:

• Better aerial game due to speed and mobility
• Can cover/counter all of Snake's recovery options

Weaknesses:

• Snake's great punish game will exaggerate any mistakes
• ZSS's light weight and Snake's heavy weight result in a large gap in survivability
• Snake's stage control will make it difficult for you to approach and return to the stage from the ledge

Final Verdict: ~45:55​

Matchup Advice:

• Exploiting Strengths:
  
  Better aerial game...: Aerial superiority is not unfamiliar to ZSS. However, against Snake it is pure dominance. Getting Snake into the air should be your primary goal. Since most of ZSS's attacks already focus on getting opponents into the air, there isn't much you have to worry about here, just remember to stick with tilts and throws that place your opponent above you. Read the "In the Air" section to know what to do when you've got him there!
  
  ...counter all of Snake's recovery...: ZSS has great options to stop Snake's recovery. Placing Snake off of the stage should result in a huge amount of damage every time. In order to force him into recovery situations, try to finish your aerial combos with a B-Air or F-Air. As for the ground, Dash Attacks and F-Throws should work pretty well if you're close to the edge. Remember to study the "Edgeguarding" section in order to properly rack up that damage once he's out there.
  
  
• Minimizing Weaknesses:
  
  Snake's great punish game...: Since Snake can cause amazing damage off of super fast tilts, it's best to avoid any situation where you are even moderately lagged directly beside him. This means avoid doing moves like U-Tilt, Third Jab, or F-Tilt directly onto his shield. Also, missing grabs can be severely punished, so make sure to predict the spot dodges or rolls and avoid bad situations. Side-B should also be used with extreme caution, since it will have considerable ending lag if Snake is able to bypass the sweetspot.
  
  ...gap in survivability: The best way to minimize a gap in survivability is to get good gimp kills and to practice DIing Snake's kill moves. Make sure to read up on the "Suitpiece" and "Edgeguarding" sections for gimp kills and the "Attacks to Look For" section on how to DI. Also, with Snake, it's important to remember that you want to avoid trading of hits. 10% damage to you is much more significant than 10% to him. This means you must be especially careful when Snake has a grenade in his hand, know the explosion distance!
  
  Snake's stage control...: The most important thing about Snake's stage control is to be confident in your ability to deal with it. The more panicked you are, the better Snake's stage control will seem, since you're playing their game! Make sure to read up on the Grenade, C4, Claymore (D-Smash), and Mortar (U-Smash) in the "Attacks to Look For" section. The key to regaining stage control is understanding what you are up against!
  
  
• Suitpiece Strategy:
  
  Under Construction
  
  
• Approach Alterations:
  
  Under Construction
  
  
• In the Air:
  
  His only viable aerial defense is using his B-Air. To nullify the threat, make sure to attack from the front or below. Remember to watch for pivoted grenades and C4 (to change his momentum and mix-up his landing). Also remember that Snake has poor horizontal aerial control, so after a Snake performs a double jump, he is vulnerable to landing grabs.
  
  
• Attacks to Look for:
  • xxxx
    Description:
    How to Counter/Avoid:
    DI: 0°
    SDI: 0°
  
  
• How to Edgeguard:
  
  It is extremely important that you chase as soon as possible. Most Snakes will recover high, so Up-B boost a RAR'd jump and try to B-Air him at the top of the stage. If you feel like you can Flipspike instead, feel free to do that as well. However, realize that if they are high on the screen when you spike them, they have plenty of time to cancel it and recover anyways.
  
  If they're recovering low but slightly away from the ledge, try to go for a well timed dashgrab to pull them out of the Cypher, this is rare, but one grab can change the tide of the match. If he's anywhere above ~80%, after the air release run off with him and side-b him, it's guaranteed to hit before he can C4, and since he's holding down to pop the C4, he'll DI straight into the wall. If he's at low percent, he's still going to have to recover from below the stage, try to predict his C4 and punish with a B-Air or Flipspike.
  
  
• How to Recover:
  
  You shouldn't have much of a problem tethering the edge and returning. If the Snake tries to grab the ledge to hog, he just gave up his advantage by letting you footstool/jump back onto the stage as normal. However, if he camps just above the ledge he will most likely set-up mortars, C4s, and Claymores to prevent your return. Approach with care, a ledgeattack will most likely be punished with a grab or F-Tilt. Rolling will result in the same. Ledgehopped attacks could potentially leave you open for mortars and also F-Tilts. Ledgejumping could force you into the mortars. Try to find a safe time to ledgejump and down-b past Snake, there is a chance you'll get hit out of this as well, but it would most likely hit you back into the stage, and into safety. Remember, patience is key here. Only attempt to get back on stage when you're ready! Flipjump stall if you need the invincibility in the meantime.
  
  
• Special Information:
  
  Under Construction
  
  
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
  • Rainbow Cruise - Probably the worst Snake stage possible. He gets forced into the air and he can't control the stage. Beware of the Ship portion of the stage, since Snake can control the ship rather well.
  • Norfair - The lava can force Snake into the air and the awkwardness of the stage doesn't allow for great stage control.
  • Jungle Japes - Super high ceiling and lengthy stage. You cut the gap in survivability significantly and lower his ability to stage control. Be wary of a Snake getting the lead and camping a side platform (which disables your side-b). Japes should be considered a double-edged sword.
  • Brinstar - Same as Norfair, lava can force him into the air. However, this stage's small size can allow Snake to stage control pretty well. Also, the top platform brings you dangerously close to the ceiling. This should also be considered a double-edged sword.
• Stages to Avoid:
  • Easily controlled stages (Frigate Orpheon, Battlefield, etc.)
  • Low Ceiling stages (Corneria, Halberd, etc.)

Snake Contributors:

cycon365
bludhoundz
JesiahTEG
Ran Iji
Thanks guys!​

Snake's Thread​

Long Range:
Snake's focus will most likely be on grenades. Attempt to avoid these and slowly close the ground with Snake. Shield and dispose of the grenades when necessary. Throwing them back will most likely result in Snake Grenade Stripping, which will cause the grenade to stop in mid-air and fall to the ground.
Medium Range:
You need to start looking out for boostsmashes. If Snake doesn't have a grenade in his hand, he can quickly close the gap by boostsmashing. To avoid this, fire off repeated neutral-b shots in order to discourage his dash-attack. If he dash-attacks while you don't have a neutral-b shot out to stop him, try to D-Tilt him as he's approaching, if you are in the air, try to chase with a side-b, you might be able to reach him. When Snake has a grenade in his hand, you are safe from such boostsmashing. At this distance, you should be performing short-hop side-bs to pressure his shield and hopefully get a couple hits to knock him in the air. Be careful, if Snake rolls towards you he may avoid the side-b by placing himself in the deadzone. Try to U-Tilt to punish this, if not, retreat (Snake will respond to any shield pressure with a powerful F-Tilt or U-Tilt).
Close Range:
Avoid close range at all costs, this is where Snake thrives. Don't let yourself get baited into this range with Snake, he can easily Tilt punish you or trade hits by pulling grenades and letting you pop them. Trading hits in this matchup will only exaggerate the survivability gap, don't do it! If you shield the second hit of his F-Tilt, you can shield-grab him.
In the air:
Focus on hitting with U-Airs and F-Airs to rack up damage. Avoid using the Plasma Wire, since a spike will only ground Snake and place yourself at the disadvantage. Keep an eye out for fastfalled B-Airs, it's a powerful move and stays out for a long time. Try to bait B-Airs and punish with Side-B.
Matchup Unique Information:
Be vary wary of Snake's C4s and Claymores. They both take ~28 seconds to expire (the C4 will explode while the Claymore disappears). A Claymore can be detonated with a dash->perfect shield or a D-Smash. ZSS's D-Air will override Snake's U-Smash, allowing her to pass through it. Any attack will allow you to pass through the Nikita missile for a short period of time, a neutral-b shot is a good option here. If Snake uses his Up-B (the cypher) and you are able to grab him during or after it over the edge (easier with the length of our grab), do not pummel him, he will air release and not be able to Up-B again until he is hit again (most Snakes will c4 themselves at this point, be ready for it).

Old Information:

Current opinions derived from Orion's Thread

Snake players can be pretty annoying with the c4 and mines around the stage. However besides the fast jab attacks he deals, everything else leaves him waiting for punishment.

Against newer or just spammer players once they side b it opens up almost unlimited combo opportunities. Snake's aerials are just no where near as good as ZSS's and when they do get you to a high percent there's not much to do as long as you're smart enough to be wary of the mine/c4 since his smash attacks are so slow.

You really have no best bet in this match-up, as in whether you're the defensive or offensive type you should be able to pull off a win if you aren't too overconfident. Some may disagree but I just either haven't seen very good Snake players or he just really does not stand the slimmest of chances against ZSS.

In summary watch for any traps, keep good spacing and hope for a little side b spam action from them and follow up, also because of the "catching the cypher" you can play it safe and not chase them off the stage.

I'm going to add here that Snake has a bit better chance against Zamus than Tsen gives him here. His dash attack is faster than, and outprioritizes Plasma Whip, it also approches faster than you can run, and ends up on the other end of your shield, so it's very difficult to punish. Snake can also follow up with a dtilt, which goes under Zamus' grab, if he finishes the attack in front of Zamus.

Snake also destroys Zamus in the close up game, so we can see a lot of Snakes closing in on Zamus as fast as possible. This is also a problem in that if you try to shield ftilt, you can still get your shield broken fairly easily, and if that happens, then it's a rocket in your face.

That said, it's not so bad. Snake is relatively easy to combo, and he has a lot of trouble getting into Zamus' dead zone at about a 37 to 45 degree angle in front of and behind her, and if he tries, he's slow enough in the air that you can generally avoid him. And like Tsen said, if he recovers too close to the stage, grab him out of the air. If he's far enough out, you may not even take damage from cypher, and you can just sit on the edge until he escapes.

I've found that a properly utilized down B can make a Snake's charge useless. If you start out facing Snake, as he charges, Down+B to your back and dependent on what is the best direction to aim your kick you generally gain solid ground on Snake using this.
I find it useful to use this mainly because snakes tend to charge at about the half distance of the move so generally.

Also, Snakeee's advice:

ZSS can outcamp Snake a LITTLE, and with precision she can win. However, Snake can punish any mistakes well. The biggest problem is at close range. It's very hard for ZSS to punish F-tilt spamming (as it is with most characters -_-). Her forward B obviously out-ranges his attacks, and paralyzer shots can break his dash attack cancelled up smash. Once he's in the air, ZSS has the advantage, but even here if he beats the timing on aerials his priority destroys hers and an upwards KO attempt could backfire horribly. It's hard for her Up-B to break his aerials as well. Up-Smash is probably the safest thing to do, and the best bet at lower percentages here. On the other hand, ZSS can do a lot to Snake's recovery, as ZSS has options to spike him (if he's low enough), or forward B him while he's on the cypher.

So let's talk about some Pros and Cons of fighting Snake, where do you feel you have the advantage? Where do you have the disadvantage? What do you suggest to do to maximize these advantages and minimize the disadvantages?

 

[DeliciousCake]

First off, everyone message a mod to get this stickied.

 

[FadedImage]

advantages:

• Vastly superior air game: mobility and speed
• Better camp game: paralyzer shots to stop boostsmashes, pressure his nade pulls with side-b, and better ground mobility in general
• Don't have to worry about gimped recovery: Snake never leaves the stage
• Snake has to worry about gimped recovery: flipspikes are easier to aim on a cypher, b-air hits off cypher, and increased grab range means easier grab-release gimps (all of this easier with ZSS insanely good air mobility and Snake's inability to defend himself off stage).

disadvantages:

• Snake has much better punish game.
• ZSS's light weight makes Snake's U-Tilt that much better.

Synopsis:

Getting Snake into the air is your main goal here. Once you've got him there, you can proceed to combo him with aerials. Once he catches on to this, he'll start fastfalling b-airs and such. Bait the aerial, then stun/side-b the predicted landing zone, and punish further.

However, getting Snake into the air is a task all of it's own. You should be able to out-camp him, since the only real ranged attack he's got are nades, which you should be able to shield and toss back. If he's pulling them out constantly, space a side-b at him, he'll shield, drop the nade, and then be stuck in his shield (threatened by the nade). A lot of Snake's will roll out of this situation. If he rolls towards you, U-Tilt punish. If he rolls away, reset. Snake also doesn't have a lot of approach options, since even small charge neutral-b shots will stop his boostsmash in its tracks. He can't really approach with aerials, and if he does you can shield and punish with basically anything.

The thing that makes people lose to Snake is his insane ability to punish. You have to play extremely safe when approaching and spacing a Snake, because one wrong move means a 15%+ Jab/F-Tilt combo or (if you're over 100%) a U-Tilt for the KO. This is double important because Snake's have the tendency to pull out nades any time they feel threatened, and if you pop the nade on both of you, Snake wins (trading hits in this matchup is BAAAAD).

Overall, play it safe, out-camp that hoe, and when you get him off the edge, PLAY AGGRESSIVE. You've got the speed and recovery to do it, so chase like crazy!

Overall scores: 50-50 in theorycraft, 45-55 in reality


EDIT:
I just thought, should we invite Snake players to this discussion for a super sweet flamefest or what?

 

[ph00tbag]

I guess we hadn't gotten to this by the time Orion's thread died, but it should also be mentioned that our dair goes through usmash, so if Snake has you above him and goes for the usmash, then immediately dair to go through the mortar and try to punish Snake. This is better if he's at high percent.

Furthermore, I don't see it in the preceding synopses, but if you ever see Snake pull out a Nikita while you're in Paralyzer range, a small Paralyzer has enough priority to disable a Nikita that hasn't been out long. He shouldn't be doing this, but it helps to know.

I might have more later.

 

[Bouse]

Yeah Faded, we actually should. They tend to get all perturbed when we don't include them.

 

[Yankee]

You guys covered pretty much all that has to be said. Once snake is off stage, the kill is yours for the taking. The only thing stopping an offstage kill is hitting himself with a c4 and thats not guaranteed. Just space him out, predict the snake dash, and avoid his traps and you are fine. The tilts are the hardest part about this match up. ZSS has enough mobility to maneuver around without being hit. I personally love fighting snakes,its really fun =)

 

[James Sparrow]

ZSS has great combos on snake because he is pretty fat. Dsmash should lead to at least 60-70 percent if you land it at an early or mid percent. This is achieved by up b out of dsmash followed by more dsmash or tech chases if he is good. I've had luck just doing dsmash out of the dsmash as well, i'm not sure if this actually chains but it will work sometimes. Snake is pretty easy to edgeguard because of his predictable up b. You can jump off the level and plasma whip him if he's coming from below, which will force him to take the hit or, alternatively, airdodge and die. You can do the whole grab him and release at the edge to leave him without up b, and it's fairly easy to get an edge dsmash which you can follow up with a flip jump spike.

Snake ***** with jabs, ftilt and utilt, and that is where most of zss's trouble in this matchup comes. These moves are only viable at close to medium-close range, and it's therefore avoidable at your own discretion. Make sure if you're going to give the snake an oppurtunity to tilt you that you have a full or nearly full shield. His 2 hit ftilt will bring your shield very low, and you will need to give yourself some time to restore it. This is what I mean by playing near him at your own discretion. Space yourself with whip and gun and use this time to let your shield regenerate. Punish his tilts with ftilts of your own, or if you're feeling saucy you can dash attack from your shield as well. I find if I try to shield grab the ftilt I often end up missing due to spot dodge and then eating and up tilt or something.

Snake wants to up tilt you because up tilt is broken. You can, however, use this to your advantage. When you see a snake being very up tilty, you will be able to predict and counteract this heavy hitting attack. Remember that utilt has a hitbox that extends in front of snake nearly as far as his ftilt, so he can use it when he's not even in range to grab you. A way that snake may try to land this attack are upsmashing when you're falling from above to provoke an airdodge making you fall right into an uptilt. Another way he might try to get this is if you're on the edge, and coming back up with an attack. Say you jump off and uair his shield on the way up, chances are he's going to up tilt you right after. My way of counteracting this is to uair his shield and retreat somewhat, often times coming back with a flipjump kick or maybe another uair after the uptilt is released.

Always make sure to know where C4 and proximity mines are planted, as they can drastically shorten one of your stocks if you're not careful. Also know the general timer on the C4 (i think it's like 20 seconds cycon365 says it's 30 seconds for both c4 and proxies) so you can judge when it might go off without him going "NOW!!"

Oh yeah about the snake dash, it's easy to stop with zss because of small paralyzer shots. You should basically be using these a lot when approaching or camping from a distance because they will prevent him with making a quick advance to close range on you with a snakedash.

I would personally put this at about 55-45 in snake's favor. ZSS has really good options and combos/strings that work well but snake's moves are just a lot better in certain respects like killing and priority.

To summarize:
pros:
Great combos on snake
Easy to edgegaurd effectively
Able to control game from a distance

cons:
Snake's ftilt and utilt will kill you very easily
C4 and proximity mines can gimp you if you're not careful
Snake is really heavy and can live from your best kill moves for quite a while

 

[cycon365]

Always make sure to know where C4 and proximity mines are planted, as they can drastically shorten one of your stocks if you're not careful. Also know the general timer on the C4 (i think it's like 20 seconds) so you can judge when it might go off without him going "NOW!!"

I love the C4 and landmines so much that I timed and tested them

C4 and Landmine both last 30secs (going off the timer in brawl)

C4 Explodes after 30 secs., landmindes disappear.

If you're in the middle of a level change (ie. Wairo ware, Delfino, Castle Siege) the landmine will usually explode, the c4 will never explode

 

[bludhoundz]

Snake can camp pretty well with grenades.

Throwing them back against a good Snake won't always work, as he can just strip another grenade and that negates all the momentum of the one you just threw (so it'll stay right next to you). Also he can cook them and shield / dodge while holding them (dangerous if you're attacking him).

I'd say close the gap to a range where he can't really camp you with grenades safely, and can't reach you with his tilts either. Space him (plasma whip and paralyzer shot are useful for this). Grab him and throw him skywards. Keep him in the air / offstage as much as possible.

 

[FadedImage]

So is everyone pretty much in agreement here?
45-55?

disadvantage to ZSS because she has to be super, super careful in this matchup, whereas Snake just plays like normal. Otherwise, even matchup.

 

[NeoZero]

I'm fine with that, but are we going to give the Snake mains a chance to express their opinions on this?

Heck, are we going to allow our Snakeee to have a chance to express his opinion on this before we end?

 

[Snakeee]

Oh I just noticed this thread was made. Well, my info on Snake that Cake quoted is old, but it's still pretty accurate except for that up smash bit (wtf was that about >_>). Also, if Snake does the second hit of the f-tilt ZSS can shield grab it.

A key thing to keep in mind is that ZSS' Down Smash outranges Snake's F-tilt. This is definitely something that you can use to your advantage.

And I agree on 45-55.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I didn't make this thread... >.>

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I agree with whats been said snake has a slight advantage but its still pretty even.

 

[JesiahTEG]

This matchup is pretty bad for ZSS, nowhere near 45:55. I'd put it more at 60:40 Snake, if not more.

Part of the problem I've noticed with most character boards is that they base off of matchup statistics, but forget to take into consideration individual character traits. Example:

You guys say that ZSS combos Snake well in the air, which is true. You say she can pressure Snake well and edgeguard him very well. It's all true.

Fact is, every character can do this to Snake. Every character can capitalize on his weaknesses well...When he's in the air, his recovery etc. ZSS isn't the only one.

This does not however make the matchup even close. Snake's Ftilt will always deal 21% damage, regardless of how well you can combo him in the air. His Dthrow will always lead to at least 12% damage, most of the time around 30, and if it's a good player with good prediction sometimes between 40-50.

Penetrating Snake's Ftilt is nearly impossible for ZSS. It's a wall that she's hard pressed to get around.

Snake is heavy, we all know this. You're not hard pressed to find a Snake living in the 170 % area vs ZSS, and ZSS is lucky to live to 120 vs Snake. Sometimes Snake can live past 200 vs ZSS. He can do it vs every other character, ZSS is no exception.

So while ZSS may win in some areas, you have to keep in mind this is still Snake. Yes he has weaknesses, but his strength, weight, speed of attacks, killing power and range far, far outweigh anything ZSS can do to Snake. Every Ftilt hurts ZSS SO much in comparison to other characters like DDD that can live long.

Snake wins this by a longshot. 65:35 I say.

 

[FadedImage]

You guys say that ZSS combos Snake well in the air, which is true. You say she can pressure Snake well and edgeguard him very well. It's all true.

Fact is, every character can do this to Snake. Every character can capitalize on his weaknesses well...When he's in the air, his recovery etc. ZSS isn't the only one.

True, she's not the only one, but she's much much better at it than most. She can move faster in the air than most characters and packs a much bigger punch in the air, (her best KO move is B-Air).

Penetrating Snake's Ftilt is nearly impossible for ZSS. It's a wall that she's hard pressed to get around.

lolololol. I don't mean to be a ****, but honest. Have you played a ZSS? Her primary spacing move (side-b) outranges it, as well as her combo opener (d-smash), and obviously her projectile (neutral-b). All moves that we use a frequent amount.

Snake is heavy, we all know this. You're not hard pressed to find a Snake living in the 170 % area vs ZSS, and ZSS is lucky to live to 120 vs Snake. Sometimes Snake can live past 200 vs ZSS. He can do it vs every other character, ZSS is no exception.

I agree, this is the only reason why I think this matchup isn't 60:40 in ZSS's favor.

So while ZSS may win in some areas, you have to keep in mind this is still Snake. Yes he has weaknesses, but his strength, weight, speed of attacks, killing power and range far, far outweigh anything ZSS can do to Snake. Every Ftilt hurts ZSS SO much in comparison to other characters like DDD that can live long.

Some areas? She beats him at range, in the air, off the edge... The only place Snake wins is up close, which is exactly why you have to avoid him like the plague. As for moveset, Snake doesn't have a lot of variety, he's basically limited to his tilts and u-smash (and Ajax's F-smash). This allows a ZSS to be able to play according to her opponent a lot easier.

And yes, we're light, I agreed with you already on this.

 

[bludhoundz]

It's not like Snake can't fight you from afar either.

Nades > paralyzer shot

C4 is awesome stage control, also.

Snake isn't going to be approaching ZSS. He's going to wait for you to approach him while he's nade camping. With ZSS, you're going to have to be out of ftilt/utilt range, but close enough to harass him with paralyzer shots, plasma whip and dsmash(I think this might be outranged by ftilt/utilt, though).

 

[Snakeee]

This matchup is pretty bad for ZSS, nowhere near 45:55. I'd put it more at 60:40 Snake, if not more.

Part of the problem I've noticed with most character boards is that they base off of matchup statistics, but forget to take into consideration individual character traits. Example:

You guys say that ZSS combos Snake well in the air, which is true. You say she can pressure Snake well and edgeguard him very well. It's all true.

Fact is, every character can do this to Snake. Every character can capitalize on his weaknesses well...When he's in the air, his recovery etc. ZSS isn't the only one.

This does not however make the matchup even close. Snake's Ftilt will always deal 21% damage, regardless of how well you can combo him in the air. His Dthrow will always lead to at least 12% damage, most of the time around 30, and if it's a good player with good prediction sometimes between 40-50.

Penetrating Snake's Ftilt is nearly impossible for ZSS. It's a wall that she's hard pressed to get around.

Snake is heavy, we all know this. You're not hard pressed to find a Snake living in the 170 % area vs ZSS, and ZSS is lucky to live to 120 vs Snake. Sometimes Snake can live past 200 vs ZSS. He can do it vs every other character, ZSS is no exception.

So while ZSS may win in some areas, you have to keep in mind this is still Snake. Yes he has weaknesses, but his strength, weight, speed of attacks, killing power and range far, far outweigh anything ZSS can do to Snake. Every Ftilt hurts ZSS SO much in comparison to other characters like DDD that can live long.

Snake wins this by a longshot. 65:35 I say.

First off, one d-smash combo from ZSS will do more damage than Snake's two f-tilts.

Second, ZSS can kill a lot quicker than you think and also has the ability to gimp Snake. If she drags him down with Up B while he is recovering he may be forced to recover low and get down smashed - down B spiked. If not he's still likely to get hit by forward B or B-air.

Snake does not have more range in most aspects either

 

[FadedImage]

I agree, c4 is great for stage control.

however, nade camping doesn't force ZSS to approach. They're just nades. Pulling them is actually a weakness for Snake, since that means all he can do with one in his hand is shield. And when he shields, he's stuck with ticking bomb at his feet/in his hand. Unless he rolls, he's gonna be stuck shielding/spotdodging in that location.

If a Snake is nade camping me, I just play his way. Grab em, throw em back. If he cooks them, short hop a side-b in his direction. I guess you could consider that an "approach", but really, there's little-to-no chance of punishment.

 

[bludhoundz]

I agree, c4 is great for stage control.

however, nade camping doesn't force ZSS to approach. They're just nades. Pulling them is actually a weakness for Snake, since that means all he can do with one in his hand is shield. And when he shields, he's stuck with ticking bomb at his feet/in his hand. Unless he rolls, he's gonna be stuck shielding/spotdodging in that location.

If a Snake is nade camping me, I just play his way. Grab em, throw em back. If he cooks them, short hop a side-b in his direction. I guess you could consider that an "approach", but really, there's little-to-no chance of punishment.

The grenades are one of Snake's best moves. I do not see how pulling one is a weakness. I see how leaving one just at your feet could be one (unless you are trying to prevent an opponent from shield pressuring or grabbing you). He will generally be placing them strategically and moving away from them, or throwing them in your direction, not just holding them. If he cooks a nade it probably won't be for too long.

Snake can grenade strip -- meaning that if you try to throw a grenade back at him, he'll pull out another nade and shield drop it, which then causes the one you just threw to lose all horizonal momentum. This kinda prevents you from pressuring him with his own nades (it can still be done, but this is his main defense against it).

A SH plasma whip can be shielded, and then Snake can do a dash attack / mortar slide, which reaches a very similar distance. I am not sure if this would punish, but it would definitely close the gap which you do not want him to close.

Sure, you don't HAVE to approach. But ZSS has no long range projectile, as the paralyzer shot doesn't reach that far. She has to be at least mid range to throw out attacks of her own. She tends to outrange Snake by a little, but it isn't by too much. I believe this matchup is slightly in Snake's favor, but no worse than 60:40.

 

[FadedImage]

The grenades are one of Snake's best moves. I do not see how pulling one is a weakness. I see how leaving one just at your feet could be one (unless you are trying to prevent an opponent from shield pressuring or grabbing you). He will generally be placing them strategically and moving away from them, or throwing them in your direction, not just holding them. If he cooks a nade it probably won't be for too long.

the problem is, while holding an item, he can't use any of those broken tilts. This severely hinders his game. So if he cooks the nades, you won't be threatened by tilts and whatnot, but if he throws them without cooking them, you can just dispose of them (not necessarily use them against him).

A SH plasma whip can be shielded, and then Snake can do a dash attack / mortar slide, which reaches a very similar distance. I am not sure if this would punish, but it would definitely close the gap which you do not want him to close.

dash-attacking in this situation would probably be a bad idea. Unless you powershielded the side-b, you'll be a pretty good distance away, far enough that ZSS will be able to fire off a neutral-b or d-smash before you have time to get to her. If you -do- powershield it, we can still d-tilt/jab in defense.

She has to be at least mid range to throw out attacks of her own. She tends to outrange Snake by a little, but it isn't by too much.

I don't see how Snake is going to force ZSS out of her mid-range game.

EDIT: thanks for the input!

 

[bludhoundz]

the problem is, while holding an item, he can't use any of those broken tilts. This severely hinders his game. So if he cooks the nades, you won't be threatened by tilts and whatnot, but if he throws them without cooking them, you can just dispose of them (not necessarily use them against him).

True, but if he's pulling out a nade he's probably not fighting close quarters. His tilts aren't really needed when he's at a distance. I do not think nades are the greatest camping tool. ZSS definitely has the mobility and speed to run around and dodge nades fairly well. They are still a nuisance, though.

dash-attacking in this situation would probably be a bad idea. Unless you powershielded the side-b, you'll be a pretty good distance away, far enough that ZSS will be able to fire off a neutral-b or d-smash before you have time to get to her. If you -do- powershield it, we can still d-tilt/jab in defense.

Don't you have to wait until you're grounded again, before you can really retaliate, though? You don't really have many options while falling to the ground after the plasma whip (unless you do it while falling).

Also Snake can use his mortar slide, which even if you do paralyze him out of the dash attack, might be useful in protecting him from any followups.

Honestly I wasn't too sure if dash attack / mortar slide would be an appropriate punishment, but I think if Snake sees the plasma whip coming, he can run -> shield -> attempt to punish. If he's lucky he might enter the blind spot.

I don't see how Snake is going to force ZSS out of her mid-range game.

What attacks does ZSS have at her disposal for her mid range game?

Plasma whip, Dsmash, paralyzer shot, grab, fsmash. Anything else?

Grab and dsmash are fairly punishable if avoided. Plasma whip is an issue because of the range, and paralyzer shot is quick so pretty much impossible to punish at mid range. Fsmash is just plain slow, a pretty much unused move, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think you can just keep the whole fight mid range and win. Snake is best on the ground. Your best bet is to knock him off the stage or get him up in the air. You can zone him and look for an opening, but he has the same option.

Maybe we are focusing on the wrong points, though. What is your gameplan, as ZSS, to beat a Snake of equal skill level to you?

EDIT: thanks for the input!

Sure thing.

 

[Adapt]

What attacks does ZSS have at her disposal for her mid range game?

Plasma whip, Dsmash, paralyzer shot, grab, fsmash. Anything else?

Grab and dsmash are fairly punishable if avoided. Plasma whip is an issue because of the range, and paralyzer shot is quick so pretty much impossible to punish at mid range. Fsmash is just plain slow, a pretty much unused move, if I'm not mistaken.

It is very hard to punish a d-smash, due to little ending lag. ZSS should be able to jab or shield any followup

Also, I wouldn't even consider f-smash or grab part of the mid-range game. The only time you will see grab is either as a mixup with the armor, out of a stun, or I think we might be able to shieldgrab a ftilt/utilt. And f-smash might be used out of a stun, but likely no where else.

ZSS can normally avoid a lot of Snake's tilts and explosives by spacing correctly. If snake can break down the spacing game with proper stage control he can get an in and then ZSS will have to strive to reset, which is where Snake can come in and do some damage.

I personally consider the matchup a 60-40 advantage for Snake because ZSS has much less margin for error and dies really easily.

 

[FadedImage]

They are still a nuisance, though.

**** right they are... lol

(unless you do it while falling).

yeah, we do. A proper sh plasma whip will have the hitbox released just before landing. So we basically land without lag (or very little).

Also Snake can use his mortar slide, which even if you do paralyze him out of the dash attack, might be useful in protecting him from any followups.

I'm a little confused about this statement. If you get hit with a paralyzer shot, that means a combo is comin'. If it's a neutral-b projectile shot, dashattack->jab/tilt is coming, if it's a d-smash stun, you're in for a world of hurt, lol.

Honestly I wasn't too sure if dash attack / mortar slide would be an appropriate punishment, but I think if Snake sees the plasma whip coming, he can run -> shield -> attempt to punish. If he's lucky he might enter the blind spot.

true, this can be a pain to deal with as ZSS, improperly spacing a side-b and having them run in on you.

Grab and dsmash are fairly punishable if avoided.

Well, grab should be used sparingly, especially in a matchup like this, (Snake is spotdodge happy). D-Smash is unpunishable, unless you hit her before she starts it up (the hitbox counts as a projectile, as such, if it hits your shield, you'll be in shieldstun, but ZSS won't, we can immediately jab/jump/shield after the release of the d-smash).

F-smash is just garbage, so you were right about us not using it.

I don't think you can just keep the whole fight mid range and win. Snake is best on the ground. Your best bet is to knock him off the stage or get him up in the air. You can zone him and look for an opening, but he has the same option.

the point isn't to keep the -entire- fight there, we're just hoping to get a stun/side-b hit in to pop you into the air, and then try to keep you there as long as possible.

Maybe we are focusing on the wrong points, though. What is your gameplan, as ZSS, to beat a Snake of equal skill level to you?

Okay, quick outline.

Match starts, harass with suitpieces to try and get an edge, hopefully push Snake off the stage and get a gimp kill. Suitpieces have really good knockback and have a wicked trajectory angle (pretty much below horizontal). Of course, we don't rely on that, but it is a factor, a good ZSS should have the lead by the end of the first stock.

After that, when Snake is on the ground and at long range, focus on avoiding nade shenanigans and watching for boostsmash attempts. While he's not pulling/throwing nades, repeatedly fire neutral-b shots to wall yourself against boostsmash attempts. When he's pulling nades, try to close some ground, but of course, keep an eye on the boostsmash.

When you're at mid-range, mix up between short hop paralyzer shots and short hop side-bs. Watch for the Snake's rolls. If he predicts a short hop side-b, he may roll/dash->shield into the deadzone. If you have enough time to punish a roll, throw out a U-Tilt, if not, just jump and get out of there, he'll just shield/spotdodge your tilts/jabs and respond with **** (f-tilt/jab).

If you successfully connect with a side-b or paralyzer shot->dash attack->tilt, you've got him in the air, try to keep him there with u-air and u-smash. If you feel threatened by the falling b-airs, try to bait them, and then punish him on landing, since all of his aerials have wicked lag.

If you've landed a horizontal hit and got him off the stage, go after him. Most Snakes will recover high, so up-b boost a RAR'd jump and try to b-air him at the top of the stage. If they DI it properly, they'll get ceiling KO'd, and if they don't they'll get wall KO'd, win-win! If they're recovering low but slightly away from the ledge, try to go for a well timed dashgrab to pull them out of the cypher, this is rare, but one grab can change the tide of the match. If he's at high percent after the grab, run off with him and side-b him, it's guaranteed to hit before he can c4. If he's at low percent, he's still going to have to recover from below the stage, try to repeat the process. If he's at mid-percents, try to predict his c4 and punish with a b-air.

Of course, always be aware of c4s and mines (which should be detonated with d-smash or dash->shield). I'm not saying you'll never get punished, you will, it's Snake, but ZSS has the tools to avoid a good amount of damage with proper spacing.

 

[bludhoundz]

**** right they are... lol

yeah, we do. A proper sh plasma whip will have the hitbox released just before landing. So we basically land without lag (or very little).

Okay, cool.

I'm a little confused about this statement. If you get hit with a paralyzer shot, that means a combo is comin'. If it's a neutral-b projectile shot, dashattack->jab/tilt is coming, if it's a d-smash stun, you're in for a world of hurt, lol.

I meant the mortar might be useful in protecting Snake if he does happen to get paralyzed. But generally, he is going to take a lot of damage out of being paralyzed, you're right.

Well, grab should be used sparingly, especially in a matchup like this, (Snake is spotdodge happy). D-Smash is unpunishable, unless you hit her before she starts it up (the hitbox counts as a projectile, as such, if it hits your shield, you'll be in shieldstun, but ZSS won't, we can immediately jab/jump/shield after the release of the d-smash).

Yeah I know the grabs are not to be abused but they will be used sometimes - I know they're pretty key to playing some characters as ZSS, and if you want Snake in the air, throwing him isn't a bad way.

When I said avoided, I specifically meant no shielding, only spotdodge / out of hitbox range. However if the spotdodge isn't timed correctly, I guess you can just jab. The only way to punish (that I can see) would be predicting the dsmash and attacking from the air (not Snake's forte). So yeah, dsmash also seems pretty unpunishable. Does it outrange Snake's tilts, though?

the point isn't to keep the -entire- fight there, we're just hoping to get a stun/side-b hit in to pop you into the air, and then try to keep you there as long as possible.

Got it.

Match starts, harass with suitpieces to try and get an edge, hopefully push Snake off the stage and get a gimp kill. Suitpieces have really good knockback and have a wicked trajectory angle (pretty much below horizontal). Of course, we don't rely on that, but it is a factor, a good ZSS should have the lead by the end of the first stock.

Yeah, I think this is actually an important factor in the matchup. If ZSS can take a strong offense with the armor parts, she's off to an early lead. The rest of the match is more uphill.

After that, when Snake is on the ground and at long range, focus on avoiding nade shenanigans and watching for boostsmash attempts. While he's not pulling/throwing nades, repeatedly fire neutral-b shots to wall yourself against boostsmash attempts. When he's pulling nades, try to close some ground, but of course, keep an eye on the boostsmash.

Seems solid.

When you're at mid-range, mix up between short hop paralyzer shots and short hop side-bs. Watch for the Snake's rolls. If he predicts a short hop side-b, he may roll/dash->shield into the deadzone. If you have enough time to punish a roll, throw out a U-Tilt, if not, just jump and get out of there, he'll just shield/spotdodge your tilts/jabs and respond with **** (f-tilt/jab).

Also seems pretty well thought out. What if Snake corners you to the edge, though?

If you successfully connect with a side-b or paralyzer shot->dash attack->tilt, you've got him in the air, try to keep him there with u-air and u-smash. If you feel threatened by the falling b-airs, try to bait them, and then punish him on landing, since all of his aerials have wicked lag.

I notice you didn't mention up b, which is a good spike / used for the cake combo, among many other damage rackers. I actually think that you were right not to mention it, because grounding Snake if you mess up the combo could cause you to lose momentum. Also if Snake is in the air on a non platformed stage, his c4 can be useful in covering him from an up b. Not to say up b can't be useful in this match...

Also if Snake times the aerial correctly so that it ends while he lands, he won't have much lag.

If you've landed a horizontal hit and got him off the stage, go after him. Most Snakes will recover high, so up-b boost a RAR'd jump and try to b-air him at the top of the stage. If they DI it properly, they'll get ceiling KO'd, and if they don't they'll get wall KO'd, win-win! If they're recovering low but slightly away from the ledge, try to go for a well timed dashgrab to pull them out of the cypher, this is rare, but one grab can change the tide of the match. If he's at high percent after the grab, run off with him and side-b him, it's guaranteed to hit before he can c4. If he's at low percent, he's still going to have to recover from below the stage, try to repeat the process. If he's at mid-percents, try to predict his c4 and punish with a b-air.

Looks like a good edgeguarding strategy. You won't gimp him every time, but at least ZSS can cover pretty much all of Snake's options.

Of course, always be aware of c4s and mines (which should be detonated with d-smash or dash->shield). I'm not saying you'll never get punished, you will, it's Snake, but ZSS has the tools to avoid a good amount of damage with proper spacing.

Agreed.

I think Snake has pretty much as good a time when ZSS is offstage as vice versa. He's not really going to be jumping off much, but thanks to his great stage control / multiple projectiles and his own hitboxes, he can control very well where opponents returning to the stage will go, and punish accordingly.

I think that ZSS has pretty good tools to fight Snake with, but his killing ability matched with his heavy weight tilt the matchup slightly in his favor.

 

[FadedImage]

Does it outrange Snake's tilts, though?

I can't confirm this, I would guess that it outranges u-tilt and first hit f-tilt, but probably not second hit of f-tilt. I'm not very familiar with the d-tilt's range (it's not often used against me).

Also seems pretty well thought out. What if Snake corners you to the edge, though?

Very good point. I would probably attempt to jump over Snake. ZSS has pretty good horizontal speed and great jump height. She should be able to clear him pretty easy. However, this does set up a sort of air chase situation where ZSS can get punished pretty hard if Snake predicts her landing choice. This landing situation is alleviated a little bit since ZSS has 3 jumps, one of them with invincibility frames and a pretty powerful attack.

I notice you didn't mention up b

lol yeah, I purposely left it out. Grounding Snake is the LAST thing you want to do.

Also if Snake times the aerial correctly so that it ends while he lands, he won't have much lag.

True, and B-air is really good for that since the hitbox stays out for a pretty long time, so you can afford putting it out a little early. However, if you can bait a b-air, a side-b should be pretty easy to hit with, whether or not there's landing lag.

I think Snake has pretty much as good a time when ZSS is offstage as vice versa. He's not really going to be jumping off much, but thanks to his great stage control / multiple projectiles and his own hitboxes, he can control very well where opponents returning to the stage will go, and punish accordingly.

This is very true. It's not hard to get to the edge against Snake, but it is a very, very difficult to get back on the stage. ZSS has pretty good mix-up edge game (down-b onto stage has invinc frames, tether allows invinc frames on ledgehop, etc.) but still, it can be a pain to get past Snake.

I think that ZSS has pretty good tools to fight Snake with, but his killing ability matched with his heavy weight tilt the matchup slightly in his favor.

truth, I guess I underestimated his edgeguarding abilities (or rather, forgot). I'll agree with a 40:60, Snake's advantage.

 

[TheRockSays]

ZSS imo does not have such a disadvantage of 60:40 on snakes favor. The way i play ZSS is not spamming side b like most ZSS Players i have seen on youtube.(including Delicious Cake) Well ZSS can harass most snake players by using the paralyzer(neutral b) they can't get in with the snake motar slide follow up by a grab after that. The best way to annoy most snake players is spamming the down smash its very essential to weaken Snake most of the time. But in order to do this i have my own stradegy i always start by getting close to snake usually they grab a grenade expecting me to dash attack them but i would stop in range for neutral b do it maybe twice since he dropped a grenade then move in for a grab. But you must always stay close to Snake since his shield is going to be weak feel free to spam down smash. Next week im hoping to get my cable modem and i will try to get some videos fighting snakes on this board. I know Truely that ZSS is not at a 60:40 on snake favor. I just think most ZSS players should change there stradegy on snake and use the side b less and use the paralyzer more often(This is the best stradegy against snake)!

 

[Ing.]

Another Effect Tatic could Be the option of DownB in order to counter hes recovery off the edge. occasionaly i like to personaly keep him in the air since nearly all of hes air moves are kinda slow compaired to ZSS. An Easy way of countering hes Dash Atk is to simply gamble (predict when hes gnna do it). for me its easy to tell since hes running.

The Trikyest thing for me is handling hes trip mines.. hard to alwayz memorys where he puts them.

TIP: Never Hold to long to the edge since he can just drop a mine down. i learned that the hard way

 

[bludhoundz]

Snake can initiate a dash attack nearly immediately out of a crawl. Crawling also allows him to avoid all paralyzer shots. I'm not sure if it goes below the plasma whip or not. It is obviously weak to downsmash, though (so Snake will probably not be crawling when close).

TheRockSays: If you don't believe it is 60-40 Snake's favor, then what is it?

 

[TheRockSays]

I believe its 50:50 Zss is very quick an agile and oviously first we harass snake with armor pieces. All snake has are grenades to fight back but armor pieces stop them in there tracks. i would reduce 75% usage of side b and only use it if he has about 125% damage using it early on its just a waste of finishing move against snake. Always try to be close to snake in side b distance but always start with a neutral b atack. The only thing We have ZSS players have to watch out for are creative snake players after we learned there strategy it should be equal playing field.

i just saw that about the crawl i will down smash you.

 

[FadedImage]

I believe its 50:50 Zss is very quick an agile and oviously first we harass snake with armor pieces. All snake has are grenades to fight back but armor pieces stop them in there tracks. i would reduce 75% usage of side b and only use it if he has about 125% damage using it early on its just a waste of finishing move against snake. Always try to be close to snake in side b distance but always start with a neutral b atack. The only thing We have ZSS players have to watch out for are creative snake players after we learned there strategy it should be equal playing field.

i just saw that about the crawl i will down smash you.

couple flaws in your argument:

we get 3 suit pieces, they get infinite grenades.

without side-b, how are you doing damage? are you stun shotting him to 125%?

so you're going to approach with neutral-b, at the range of a side-b. If he crawls under the neutral-b, you're going to use our slowest ground move to stop him? Somehow I expect a d-tilt/f-tilt is coming your way.

 

[TheRockSays]

couple flaws in your argument:

we get 3 suit pieces, they get infinite grenades.

without side-b, how are you doing damage? are you stun shotting him to 125%?

so you're going to approach with neutral-b, at the range of a side-b. If he crawls under the neutral-b, you're going to use our slowest ground move to stop him? Somehow I expect a d-tilt/f-tilt is coming your way.

I'm sorry i believe most ZSS players know what to do most of the time and im not going to give you a perfect lecture step by step on how to handle a snake.

Lets get the facts right.

1-Harass snake with armor pieces atleast try to kill or do high damage on his first stock.

2- To damage snake you should keep him in the air most of the time Grabs are essential to this make sure to Use the foward grab so he can have less time to think.

3-MOST DAMAGE SHOULD BE DONE WITH YOUR FRONT AIR AND UP AIR. Or double down smash, up b chain.

4-Snake Grenades by the time hes throwing them im already hitting him with a dash attack.

5-Snake is overall kinda of a slow character with alot of priority. But the human brain can react faster then Snake's capabilities and snake the character cannot counter attack everything.

6-Never be affraid of Snake grenades charge him always if he drops grenade via shield is that time were you can either stop use neutral b or just go grab him there should't be an excuse.

7-Snake on battlefield is more deadlier do to platforms if you manage to win here you should be good. Stages against Snake i would use Final D cause is my favorite stage But overall snake Does not have that much advantage in final D all he has working for him is his Motarslide if you time it correctly you would shoot the neutral b when he is in striking distance.

8-Do i spam? Yes i do its my stradegy against snake players and it seems to work.

9- Side-B is not how your supposed to damage to snake try something else.(Use your brain who ever i quoted.) You can use this as a finishing move When hes trying to come back.

10-If snake tries to come from above always try to up b him force him try to use air dodge and punish him after that.

11-Back to who ever i quoted i said if he crawls ill down smash him neutral b is only to prevent him from using motar slide which gets pretty annoying.

12-Finally The slowest Move that you can ever use with ZSS is The Front Smash its such an awful move YOU WILL RARELY see me use that move seriously.

 

[Ing.]

Snake can initiate a dash attack nearly immediately out of a crawl. Crawling also allows him to avoid all paralyzer shots. I'm not sure if it goes below the plasma whip or not. It is obviously weak to downsmash, though (so Snake will probably not be crawling when close).

TheRockSays: If you don't believe it is 60-40 Snake's favor, then what is it?

im not sure but its just how all the snake players i have versed. They never seem to be able to get the upper hand. well im not saying that im the best but thats how i have had it

 

[FadedImage]

I'm sorry i believe most ZSS players know what to do most of the time and im not going to give you a perfect lecture step by step on how to handle a snake.

that's the point of this thread...

common advice and stuff that doesn't work on cpus over the level of 5

seriously, do you go to tournaments? What Snakes have you played? Yes, it matters.

12-Finally The slowest Move that you can ever use with ZSS is The Front Smash its such an awful move YOU WILL RARELY see me use that move seriously.

I was talking about the D-Smash, it comes out in 20 frames, tied for slowest ground move with F-Smash.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Stuff

Pretty much all of this is ****. I'm sorry, but you do not know what you're talking about. I'll post later when I have time.

 

[Adapt]

3-MOST DAMAGE SHOULD BE DONE WITH YOUR FRONT AIR AND UP AIR. Or double down smash, up b chain.

I stopped reading right there... Good luck getting more than a single "dsmash>dsmash>up-B"

 

[Sesshomuronay]

A bunch of people dunno what their talking about. Im hoping cake will say something good.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I'm very pissed, I wrote out a long explanation against all of this and my browser crashed posting it. My responses will likely be much angrier now.

1-Harass snake with armor pieces atleast try to kill or do high damage on his first stock.

This is so blatantly obvious to do against any character that it should not be considered in almost any matchup.

2- To damage snake you should keep him in the air most of the time Grabs are essential to this make sure to Use the foward grab so he can have less time to think.

Getting her opponent in the air is ZSS' general strategy. This doesn't have any effect of the matchup either.

3-MOST DAMAGE SHOULD BE DONE WITH YOUR FRONT AIR AND UP AIR. Or double down smash, up b chain.

I am going to punch you with the fist of an angry god. "double down smash, up b" IS NOT A COMBO/CHAIN/SANDWICH WHATEVER THE **** YOU WANT TO CALL IT. IT WILL BE DI'ED BY ANYONE WHO IS NOT A MORON.

4-Snake Grenades by the time hes throwing them im already hitting him with a dash attack.

Any Snake player will do one of the two in this situation: 1. Have another grenade already cooked, or 2. Shield grab you because you're an idiot.

5-Snake is overall kinda of a slow character with alot of priority. But the human brain can react faster then Snake's capabilities and snake the character cannot counter attack everything.

Snake is one of the fastest heavy characters. Mortar-sliding and his dash attack allow him to cover large areas with little retaliation. And don't give me that "paralyzer shots stop him" bull****, you can't react that fast. Stop trying to pretend you're a super human. The only time it's going to stop him is if he's trying to hit you with a mortar-slide from halfway across FD or if you're already charging one beforehand.

6-Never be affraid of Snake grenades charge him always if he drops grenade via shield is that time were you can either stop use neutral b or just go grab him there should't be an excuse.

So what you're saying is that charging a Snake with a cooked grenade is your best option? He is not going to shield-drop it if you're charging him, he's going to roll-drop backwards so you're standing on the grenade. If you do manage to grab him you're still standing on the grenade. Yes, that's bad, no matter how you look at it. If he doesn't drop it and you go for the grab, you're equally ****ed. Playing a guessing game is not a strategy, it's a guessing game.

7-Snake on battlefield is more deadlier do to platforms if you manage to win here you should be good. Stages against Snake i would use Final D cause is my favorite stage But overall snake Does not have that much advantage in final D all he has working for him is his Motarslide if you time it correctly you would shoot the neutral b when he is in striking distance.

Final Destination only makes it easier for Snake to camp and play defensively. Just because it's your "favorite stage" does not make it the best counterpick.

8-Do i spam? Yes i do its my stradegy against snake players and it seems to work.

I'm assuming these Snake players are quadriplegics and amputees.

9- Side-B is not how your supposed to damage to snake try something else.(Use your brain who ever i quoted.) You can use this as a finishing move When hes trying to come back.

B-air is much more effective in KO'ing Snake, ESPECIALLY if he's recovering. He's a big fat target on his Cypher, why would you not go with your best option? Try using your own brain before telling others to turn on theirs.

10-If snake tries to come from above always try to up b him force him try to use air dodge and punish him after that.

Nobody is ******** enough to fall in a perfectly straight line above you.

11-Back to who ever i quoted i said if he crawls ill down smash him neutral b is only to prevent him from using motar slide which gets pretty annoying.

Snake does not need to crawl, he outranges you. You are forced to approach him. Snake's d-tilt is faster than your d-smash anyways.

12-Finally The slowest Move that you can ever use with ZSS is The Front Smash its such an awful move YOU WILL RARELY see me use that move seriously.

You and every other ZSS main. Stop trying to act like you're the only smart one.

Oh, and take the time to respond to people individually. Basically you're showing to us that you don't really care about this argument when you blow people off.

 

[M.K]

couple flaws in your argument:

we get 3 suit pieces, they get infinite grenades.

without side-b, how are you doing damage? are you stun shotting him to 125%?

so you're going to approach with neutral-b, at the range of a side-b. If he crawls under the neutral-b, you're going to use our slowest ground move to stop him? Somehow I expect a d-tilt/f-tilt is coming your way.

1- They only get 2 un-exploded grenades on the field at one time, so that somewhat limits their powers.

2- Aerials? Tilts? Side-B isn't really even a "rack up damage" move.