Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[z00ted]

The matcup is even 50:50, King Beef hit it all

 

[z00ted]

ok dark peach, sorry for bringing up general peach habits. We really do need to change this to drk peach vs zss cause thats where the help really needs to be. If we can beat that one player than no peach stands a chance amiright?

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[C.S. Dinah]

Even? Peach must be on the ground?

Got it

/Illmaticbedoublepostin

 

[TheZeroSuit]

I think most of us can agree it's in the evenish zone. I'm going to try and get this moving a lot faster while we're in summer and activity's "high", feel free to continue discussion on past matchups but moving on:

Luigi:

 

[Zero]

Hold jab to beat fireballs and Tornado.

Stagger uair combos to beat THE NAIR, just like character's with good dairs (Peach, Lucario, Fox);

umm, i dunno what else, haven't actually played a Luigi ever @_@

 

[Nefarious B]

Don't challenge a charging usmash if you're falling is all I have to say, you will probably clank because of its beast hitbox which sucks when you die at 90 from luigi's number 3 kill move. Yes this comes from experience lol

I don't have much xp though, all I'll say at first glance is that Luigi is a very slow character movement wise. Bad aerial speed, bad dash, mediocre fast fall means that we can run circles around him. That is gonna compensate for his solid comboing 0-50 and his early kills if you're not smart. Use your speed advantage to make your range more of a factor; like his bair has great range, his fair has garbs range, so use your movement to force those weaker hitboxes to go against yours.

This is a matchup where we can afford to play on the ground more, since his slipperiness makes more moves safe on shield. Luigis are used to this though so vary the timing on your moves, mix up fast falled and non fastfalled aerials at different heights to reduce the chances of getting those PSed since they're the most likely candidates.

Against his recover, while it's good distance wise, we can tack on solid damage by punishing it. Instead of challenging his rising down b, punish the substantial ending lag and knock him out, forcing him to side b which is also punishable. His up b is easily hoggable which will force him to land on stage, where you can bair him off again during his hefty landing lag.

that's all I got for now

 

[ph00tbag]

Don't try to punish aerials on shield directly. Try to predict what Luigi is going to do afterward, and punish that instead. Luigi's aerials are too fast to punish directly, but his ground moves have enough lag that you can punish them if you predict them right.

 

[Blakmane]

It seems like ZSS has a lot of advantages over luigi. Luigi's good priority in the air is mostly nulled by our better aerial priority, and his aerial attack speed isn't so useful due to superior spacing tools, and ground and air speed letting us pick the fights. We can jab his fireballs and spin. We never have to be in close enough to risk up-bs and F/U smashes (luigi must approach us to use these tools). Luigi isn't particularly good on shield or OOS if I recall (could be wrong), so our biggest weaknesses don't really cause issues in this MU.

That said, i've never played an outstanding Luigi, so I don't really know how this MU 'feels'. Any ZSS/Lui mains have more experience here?

 

[NickRiddle]

Just throw out spacing moves.
Enjoy Luigi never getting into you. If he does, take the hits, and do it again.
Eventually knock him off stage.
Watch him tornado recovery. Laugh, and hit him.
Rinse + Repeat

 

[solecalibur]

I think if Luigi spaces it right he can utilt our neutral b and forward b but he has to be dead on with hitting us but something to take note, I always hate the MU just because he just trades hits with everything, Luigi should be higher then they mention on the tier list on how many things he counters but weegee boards are even more dead then ours (IMO 55/45 weegee zss or 50/50 ),

Gimping ? / Racking up damage when off stage :
anyways when gimping a Luigi it won't happen often (depends on certain situations but normally you cant gimp but luigi's options are very limited when recovering) but this is a great time to rack up the damage as they will normally cyclone up , forward b towards the stage or just up b

I dont have much info on luigi as many do not play him but he is a winable MU vs zss when you take your time and dont go for the aireal follow ups but keep a safe distance from him then follow up(why im thinking 50/50) with more information present or I run into more luigi players

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Luigi likes pressuring, be resistant to that. It takes a while to get used to his quick cooldowns though.
Luigi's like catching landings more than other characters I've noticed, keep your downB for if he really wants to.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think if Luigi spaces it right he can utilt our neutral b and forward b but he has to be dead on with hitting us but something to take note, I always hate the MU just because he just trades hits with everything,

There's no way utilt is disjointed enough to beat our side b lol. It cancels our nB though but he'd be better off jabbing if he wanted to do that. It's true he trades hits a lot in the air though

I'd call this a solid 60-40 advantage, our normal disadvantages aren't exploited as much in this matchup

 

[Blakmane]

I dont have much info on luigi as many do not play him but he is a winable MU vs zss when you take your time and dont go for the aireal follow ups but keep a safe distance from him then follow up(why im thinking 50/50) with more information present or I run into more luigi players

There's no way we shouldn't be following up in the air. Properly spaced, an upair out-prioritises every aerial move he has.

*ninja edit*

I am inclined to agree with you NB, but this debate feels extremely one-sided. Where are the lui mains?

 

[solecalibur]

There's no way utilt is disjointed enough to beat our side b lol. It cancels our nB though but he'd be better off jabbing if he wanted to do that. It's true he trades hits a lot in the air though

I'd call this a solid 60-40 advantage, our normal disadvantages aren't exploited as much in this matchup

I'll test it tomorrow, my memory isnt that bad

 

[Dakpo]

K guys ill throw my input on this since i co main luigi :o
I feel sorry for any luigi who has to play me in a tourney because the match up is so easy. Luigi has to focus on air game for most of the damage with a few down throw follow ups and finishes at low percents with tilted Fsmash, Up B, and Up smash (lol i revenge kill will bair a lot.) The thing about this one is keeping luigi away from you! If you hit his shield he slides way back and this happens often when using side B a lot. His fire balls are slow moving jabable, shieldable, laughble projectiles that do almost nothing. Thus said, the best way to really dig in to a luigi is to camp him which will force him into the air giving you a prime time to show him your Uair. This beats his nair and you can usually get away with it.

Another thing that is really important to use is Up tilt OoS after he is trying to dair Nair you or for that matter any air approach. Camping him plus your super speed advantage on the floor and in the air should shut him down. When you reach 80% ( yea i know its really low) watch out for the desperate and broken Tilted Fsmash!!! its ok to be afraid of it. its better to get punished for camping than to get killed when hit at 80%(of course this depends on the stage, luigi loves halberd). Honestly think of it like when you know you are in up tilt country against snake and you are staying out of its range like there is no tomorrow!

Luigi has a pesky move that both helps and hurts him...The tornado . The tornado is interesting and can come out fast and cover distance fast. it also destroys Neutral B and is too fast for side B counter. It recovers well and can punish a lot of things. So how do we get around it? *looks around* oh hey there pal long time no see OoS Uptilt. The ending lag to this move is really easy to punish. I, and i know im not the only one who does, like to lift off the ground after i reach my target and they shield. (sometimes i nair right after) Now for that recovery. K there is a generic way a lot of bad luigi players recover (80%) and then there is a small portion of luigi players that recover the smart way (20%). The easy to punish recovery is Side B --> to Jump--> to tornado. The problem with that is that the tornado lag should always be met with a fair or bair. But the smart way to recover with luigi is Side B-->to tornado--> then jump (maybe thrown in an attack)--> then Up B. Up B to grab the ledge is really hard to punish as you know . If they recover the second way , i dont think i can think of any way to punish that with out getting super risky.
So my points in the match up are

1. space as far away with side B and Neutral B as possible
2.Punish him when he gets close with OoS Up tilt when he is in the air
3. Watch out for Tilted F smash at around 80% on
4. Take Advantage of your speed in the air and ground.
5. And always be ready for a really fast tornado.

i rest my case, as i have played good zss players with my luigi and i also happen to co main the two so i know the match up. of course any one can beat zss if they PS everything (basically -__-) but i really do feel that the match up leans more towards 6-4 but isnt quite there

 

[Blakmane]

Awesome post, Dakpo.

I've posted again in the Wigi thread, trying to drum up some counter-arguments, but they seem awfully shy o.o.

If there's no strong reply in 1-2 days, shall we set this one as 60:40 ZSS and move on?

 

[yoshq]

shy my ***, lazy and inactive more like it. i agree with whatever you guys think this is, to the extent that i don't play this matchup with luigi, but with fox. yes, fox, the guy with the 0-60 combo. i have my reasons. as luigi i get spaced the **** out of, and it's just not fun. to put this main-switching in perspective, i only switch from luigi for 3 mus, sonic, zss, and mk. sorry, but unless i have a sudden burst of energy while lurking on swf i won't be making a huge post about this mu.

 

[Dakpo]

its true, i beat his luigi last time we played but lost to his fox D:

 

[Blakmane]

Fox isn't a favourable MU for us if I remember correctly: it's only vaguelly even because of the chain.

People happy with 60:40 then? Who has the power to update the initial post? Who shall we do next?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

just to post something extra, I'll edit this more. I played a completely even match with Snakeee's Zamus on Lylat last tournament, last hit type of game. Ill edit this later.

And yes, I think it is 60-40 Zamus overall, Zamus does better on neutrals, plain and simple.

 

[Dakpo]

have we done TL yet? if we have then please fix the links on first page. also which page is the diddy match discussed. oh and oli

 

[HyL!]

i don't use luigi against zss either, it's too frustrating, so i've got really no input as i've only faced like, 2 then swapped from luigi.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol, we used to say Luigi was a bad match-up.

 

[AxelPurpleMissle]

Fox isn't a favourable MU for us if I remember correctly: it's only vaguelly even because of the chain.

People happy with 60:40 then? Who has the power to update the initial post? Who shall we do next?

I dont agree with the match up ratio, or maybe its because i haven't playd a good samus player offline or online. Anyways i think the ratio should be almost even, I dont think zzs is such a hard match up for luigi. What happends if luigi gets inside zzs? D:!

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

If Luigi gets inside ZZS you restart the game and select ZSS

 

[NickRiddle]

If Luigi gets inside ZZS you restart the game and select ZSS

Yup.

Did you ahve fun trolling DP btw?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It was horribly fun, I even closed one of the most important threads on the boards by doing so. Thanks for your interest :D

 

[Nefarious B]

I mean, we can just... jab if Wigi is in close. I'm looking at this and thinking that it's definitely one of our better matchups, Wigi is susceptible to all our stupid **** that usually doesn't work. If there wasn't the chance of running into a kill move at 70% I'd say this was a 65-35 for us.

I'll test it tomorrow, my memory isnt that bad

Maybe it clanks with side b and that's what you're thinking of? That's a possibility, but our side b outranges IC's blizzard, it's (I believe) the longest disjoint in the game.

I wasn't gonna update the thread until tomorrow though because I was hoping for more Wigi contribution, but this does look very cut and dry to me (is that even a phrase?).

Xonar where is this trollage you speak of?

 

[Dakpo]

Oos uptilt stops luigi easy or pushes him back enough if he is on the floor ...its not that bad

 

[ph00tbag]

lol, we used to say Luigi was a bad match-up.

I never did.

I just knew Luigi's blockstrings moderately well. I figured someone really smart would do even better than I would.

 

[TheZeroSuit]

So I'm looking to have the matchup directory fully cleaned up by the end of the week, hold tight until then.

Moving on, we're finishing up mid tier with:
Bowser

 

[Dakpo]

l thanks.......lol bowser
Juggle city folks. Now i cant remember exactly but isnt there something different about bowsers grab than the rest of the cast

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Really annoying for Bowser ;[

Bowser has a ground grab release chaingrab on ZSS iirc, and can grab release to Klaw, so don't get grabbed.

 

[Nefarious B]

Bowser boards are like, a million times deader than ours so I wouldn't expect much input from them.

I'm just gonna post this to start off conversation lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krL5J6mLX18

So basically, our CG is a 0-death on Bowser. Time a dsmash and spike him (or dazzle him for sexy points).

Now Bowser's like to camp in shields a lot, because their up B OOS is pretty beast. Bowser also has a 10 frame advantage when he grab releases another character, so his grab game is something to fear as well since he can get jabs, regrab CGs, side b, and tilts off from a grab.

Since we have a huge threat on Bowser at low percents in a 0-death, he's risking more by shield camping, which is definitely a huge point in our favor.

Another common tactic they'll use is klaw hopping, where they klaw before hitting the ground to renew their second jump. This is good for mindgames, increases Bowser's mobility (he's actually faster in the air then us, though his ground speed is pretty bad), and also means that punishing landings is more difficult. Even though our grab has a good hitbox above the whip, you're risking more by trying to grab landings, dsmash is probably a better option. Bowser's attacks in the air aren't really fast enough to compete with ours though, so you can find room in between the mandatory klaws to punish him and start juggles

Aerial klaw has a ******** hitbox and is a command grab, one of Bowser's best moves, so watch out for it.

Juggling Bowser is lulsy, his dair is garbs, his airdodge is bad, he has a huge hitbox, and you can see down b coming a mile away (you suck if you get hit with this move). This is going to be the core of our damage wracking.

Dash lock has a very large percentage window against Bowser, so if you fail to get the CG you can look to that for easy damage at mid percents.

Bowser's fat as hell, so gimps are preferable to killing from the blast zones, and the linear nature of his up b and bad vertical increase means that first hit of fair and first hit of side b can knock him low enough to fail at recovering. He can kill us early if we're not careful, his smashes are strong but slow with marginal hitboxes (besides fsmash), he can still kill fairly early with utilt, side b, or fair especially if you DI poorly

I'm gonna go ahead and say this is one of our best matchups, 70-30.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser boards are like, a million times deader than ours so I wouldn't expect much input from them.

I'm just gonna post this to start off conversation lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krL5J6mLX18

So basically, our CG is a 0-death on Bowser. Time a dsmash and spike him (or dazzle him for sexy points).

No, he just wasn't sweetspotting, the downsmash can be avoided :/

 

[ph00tbag]

Spacing with dtilt makes Bowser a sad koopa.

 

[Blakmane]

That 0-death doesn't look like a true combo: those were pretty sloppy recoveries by bowser. I can test it tommorrow to find out.

Otherwise: yeah... bowser... this isn't a good MU for him :-(. Even his down-b gets out-prioritised by up-air, or can be punished by a FF side-B, meaning that every time he's airborne, bad things will happen. Side-b's let us avoid the Klaw while chasing off stage also.

65-35 IMO. 70-30 if that 0-death is truely unescapable.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

That 0-death doesn't look like a true combo: those were pretty sloppy recoveries by bowser. I can test it tommorrow to find out.

Otherwise: yeah... bowser... this isn't a good MU for him :-(. Even his down-b gets out-prioritised by up-air, or can be punished by a FF side-B, meaning that every time he's airborne, bad things will happen. Side-b's let us avoid the Klaw while chasing off stage also.

65-35 IMO. 70-30 if that 0-death is truely unescapable.

Alot of things beat Bowser's downb :/

It's not a death combo.

Matchup is probably between 65:35-70:30 ZSS favor.

 

[Blakmane]

Alot of things beat Bowser's downb :/.

Casual bowser players seem to spam the move whenever they're in the air. I've never faced a pro bowser before though so please forgive my lack of specific knowledge.

Regardless, I meant that more to mean, she has effective tools to counter it, even if it's used simply to get out of the air after horizontal spacing.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Xonar where is this trollage you speak of?

Page 420 and onwards in the Tier list discussion thread