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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

Nefarious B

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Oh.

Well yea things Fox can do to ZSS's shield and you can do anything about or just reset.

(Keep in mind that we are AC'ing the Bairs)

Dair>Jab(x2)
Nair>Jab(x2)
Shine>Nair
Shine>Nair>(Jabx2)
Bair>Jab
Bair>Utilt
Bair>Ftilt

So basically your best options are to roll, dash away (that doesn't seem to smart).

Everything in that list has to be buffered and we have to keep in mind the 10 frame reaction rule that the brain has. Most of these wouldn't work if you had better OoS options but Shine>Nair>Jab works on most of the cast anyways.
I honestly doubt some of those are unpunishable on our shield. So clarify some things for me:
--How does fox AC bair, is it SH rising?
--What is shine's frame advantage on shield
--What is nair's advantage on shield?

Here are my thoughts.

From what I've seen, Fox generally will SH rising bair and then retreat it like Marth does with his fair, landing at the end of the move to cancel it. This is great because even though Bair autocancel (if I am using that correctly) is slowish, bair has great horizontal range that makes it safe. However, I'm pretty sure that we can grab you if you do this in front of us, I don't think your horizontal aerial movement is fast enough to outspace it.

Nair is a move that cancels with little lag at any point in the move, and has a very long lasting sexkick hitbox. To me this move would be very good from a shine to falling nair, but it you're gonna do the rising one you're above ZSS way too long to not get punished by a good one.

So basically falling nair and dair to jabs seem like they would be pretty solid (read: not utilt/uairable OOS). Just be careful being above us in the first place.

As for how to DI out of a uair string, just try and get to the side of us and fast fall before can get back under you.

Check out this thread for dsmash chain info: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4401279. Basically, and we land a dsmash on you, we have another guaranteed dsmash until 58% (regardless of DI). So in real terms, if you're at 58% we hit you with a dsmash, we let you pop out and dsmash you again twice, then follow up for around 50%. So basically, if you are hit with a dsmash below 100% it will get you above or very near 100% and possibly kill. You do not want to be hit with this move ever, taking chip damage until a certain percent isn't really a way to allow you to be more aggressive.

Also, don't knock our dash away or roll away for escape options. Our froll is one of the best in the game, as is our dash.
 

Zero

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Just a thing on dsmash..

At mid-high percents you can land dsmash x 2 > fair. This is 39% fresh.

At high percents you can land dsmash x 3 > bair. This is a whopping 50% fresh. Realistically around 40%, but this is pretty much a guaranteed kill at 90-100%, unless you have perfect/very very good DI.

Note: If you only ever do falling bairs, we really should be reaction-uairing/dashing away as soon as the Fox leaves the ground.
 

ph00tbag

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Note that SH approaches should be well spaced. Dsmash is high enough to stuff SH approaches. This is the reason full jump dair is usually preferred, although a tad risky.

I don't know if a chain is possible off of a dsmash on an airborne opponent, though.
 

Nefarious B

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SO the reason why all the links are ****ed for some people is because of the number of posts per page is 30 I believe on TheZeroSuit account which is not default. Unfortunately I'm not sure how to make it work for both options
 

#HBC | J

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I've gotten what I have needed from this MU now. Thanks very much ^_^ plus reading that one Fox description was good.

wow that sounds very weird :S I always get confused when trying to click the MUs because sometimes I get lost ._.

Why not just have summaries in the OP? *sorry for randomly butting in*

On a side note i think Lucas would be a fun MU to discuss next ;o -totally not bias-
 

#HBC | J

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time to get unlazy and more active in here :mad088:

Seriously atm this MU is slower than the Lucas MU thread and that is saying something :laugh:
 

Darky-Sama

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The downsmash string is the only thing that's tipping it in ZSS's favor IMO. Otherwise, it's about 50:50. The main thing that irritates me is that Fox is pretty much immune to all three hits of ZSS's jab. He can shield and punish before the final hit of it.

55:45, ZSS or 50:50. He's definantly not our best match-up. lol
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
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It's still 60:40 Fox.
other than the stupid d-smash string (good luck landing that move on any good Fox) he has better mixups, can force us to approach, and can kill better.
 

Darky-Sama

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He limits a lot of the stuff we can do, but I didn't expect the ratio to be that high in his favor. 45:55 is understandable, but 40:60? I thought maybe I was just poor at the match-up or something. lol.
 

#HBC | J

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Well my reason for 40:60 is because of a few things.

-Fox is a fast little thing so the Dsmash lock is very hard to pull off on a good fox like Nick said, but one lucky Dsmash could start the lock which is good.
-Fox can force an approach with his Lasers he fires.
-Since Fox has good, powerful smashes he can kill us aloooot easier than we can kill him. Plus since ZSS is light she can die pretty easily due to his smashes.
-Fox racks up damage really nicely
-He is really good and stopping a few things we can do to him.

The only thing I really see us excelling at is Gimping in this MU and even then you have to learn how to do it first. However we still have our options of course =P
 

Darky-Sama

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Even with those things in mind, I figured ZSS would have a more evened out ratio than 40:60 because of her pressure and air game. She also has more options that out-space Fox. He's good at punishing and down smashing him is entirely too difficult to even focus on attempting.

Grounded, I usually just approach with a shield out of dash and pressure him with down tilts. ZSS has a better air game than Fox, even though his is annoying as ****, so it speaks for itself. He just has a lot of stall tactics that make following up on him more difficult. (EX. Shine)
 

Lightning93

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Even with those things in mind, I figured ZSS would have a more evened out ratio than 40:60 because of her pressure and air game. She also has more options that out-space Fox.
Well, your side-b has a long enough start-up for us to not even have to predict it to powershield. Your moves which would send us up in the air (making us fall victim to your superior air game) in the first place are easily punishable as well. From a distance, you can't really do anything to outpressure us.
 

Zero

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Your moves which would send us up in the air (making us fall victim to your superior air game) in the first place are easily punishable as well. From a distance, you can't really do anything to outpressure us.
Wrong and wrong.

Dtilt is 5 frames, pretty safe when spaced right even on PS.

This move is not "easily punishable".

Utilt is 3 frames, not safe ever but should only be used when confident it will hit. Nonetheless, it hits you in the air so it should be mentioned.

Uair is another notable mention for being pretty safe both on rising and landing.

From a distance, dsmash is so so so safe. With 0 shieldlag, you can't punish it.

Fox can't do anything from dsmash range, except avoid being in dsmash range. How is that "outpressuring" you?
 

Lightning93

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Fox shouldn't be in dsmash range... like, in any matchup. If we are, then yes, you're safe.

Besides Upair, I've only seen ZSS consistently follow up Uptilt, which does come out on the same frame as ours. I don't understand why we would allow ourselves to be hit with dtilt, unless we just let you crawl up to us. Someone mentioned dashing into shield, at which point we can retreat with more lasers/grab etc... etc... not saying Dtilt is a terrible approach, just questioning it's reliability. If we PS your upair, OoS Upsmash I believe punishes you during landing lag. It's pretty frame tight, but that's only if you manage to hit us on shield a frame before you touch the ground.
 

solecalibur

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Fox shouldn't be in dsmash range... like, in any matchup. If we are, then yes, you're safe.

Besides Upair, I've only seen ZSS consistently follow up Uptilt, which does come out on the same frame as ours. I don't understand why we would allow ourselves to be hit with dtilt, unless we just let you crawl up to us. Someone mentioned dashing into shield, at which point we can retreat with more lasers/grab etc... etc... not saying Dtilt is a terrible approach, just questioning it's reliability. If we PS your upair, OoS Upsmash I believe punishes you during landing lag. It's pretty frame tight, but that's only if you manage to hit us on shield a frame before you touch the ground.
People approach with zss's Dtilt?
Urrghhh
 

Darky-Sama

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No, I was just implying that a dtilt out of dash -> shield is useful. It helps get into a character's comfort zone... which ZSS shouldn't be doing too recklessly in this match-up. Dtilt is still nice for spacing and pressuring though. I don't think Fox can punish her with a grab for that.

Approaching with a shield is nice, but with the dtilt itself? lolno.
 

noradseven

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Screw all of you I said it was bad for us like what spring last year, and people just made fun of me, both online and at tournies :(. But yep 60:40 Fox.

Also yeah don't try to poke with d-tilt on fox, just use it for punishing like u-tilt, and for catching landings.

basically run around like an idiot, using your aireals, and try to put him in a bad position, jab and d-smash are decent AA, over B is great for pushing off the edge as always. But fox is a pain to shut down his fast fall speed means u-air resets are harder, and many of his moves have good priority.
 

NickRiddle

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Screw all of you I said it was bad for us like what spring last year, and people just made fun of me, both online and at tournies :(. But yep 60:40 Fox.

Also yeah don't try to poke with d-tilt on fox, just use it for punishing like u-tilt, and for catching landings.

basically run around like an idiot, using your aireals, and try to put him in a bad position, jab and d-smash are decent AA, over B is great for pushing off the edge as always. But fox is a pain to shut down his fast fall speed means u-air resets are harder, and many of his moves have good priority.
Hey!
I only thought it wasn't bad for us when I didn't play a Fox.
Then I did.
And then I :(
 

Dakpo

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Yup fox sucks, the worst thing is that he is so fast and never stays still making a lot of our spacing tools hard to use. He kills very well and is just so hard to catch. BUT i have seen even some of the best foxes get caught in at least one down smash....it ***** hard my friends. Thats the only saving grace i would say we have, but foxs screws everything up. So we need to pull a snakeee and just go sheik. 6/4
 

PepsiMista

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Fox *****.
I would say 55-45 Fox just because we have the D-smash Chain.
In FD I would say 60-40 Fox.
 

solecalibur

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Conviction

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You appeared to just out play (and read) hero but at the end of game 1 and 2 its note worthy that hero got two dsmash locks on you, if they did the infinite correctly it would have been a really close match
Yea i felt that made a mistake when it landed like a misspaced or i stayed inside too long without doing anything. I think the dsmash chain will land more prediction.
 

Dakpo

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I personally love fighting peaches, i know the match up fairly well... The thing with fighting peach is knowing the height in which the peach play will linger. This makes the super super easy to fair. They always go for Dair at the start of a stock and you can meet them with a fair before they get the chance. Also if the like to float high then a running Upsmash will take care of them. If you take away peach's air game then its game. also the crap disrupts there spacing along with us camping with Side B and Nut.B. Since she is in the Air sooo much this take away the greatest weapon against zss....run and shield. Although i am not to say that she cant do it, but her ground game is not that great besides the freakin slap >_<. peach is light and has a tough time killing. True peach players will know how to sway while floating very well and will lure you in to traps easily so if you get caught in dair with your shield up DONT LET GO TILL SHE TOUCHES GROUND, cause she will dair again and again and again or nair lol. Dont get caught under her is the best advice along with predicting her air game. imo 6-4 zss favor
 

Zero

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ha ha ha ha @ picture

That's really good advice Dakpo. I was recently knocked out of a tournament by a Peach player and I'm still beating myself up about it. I'll see how well I go this weekend.
 

Nefarious B

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This is an very interesting matchup imo, fun to play. I have some experience against Peaches so here are some things I have to say:

We can out maneuver Peach but it's tricky. We're faster than her both grounded (by a huge margin) and in the air, though her float give's her good enough aerial control that she can a lot of times make us miss with our aerials while throwing out one of her own to punish. Peach definitely beats us if we don't consider movement and baiting, so you're going to have to use your speed, especially ground speed, to beat her superior ground game, but again it's very doable, and you only need to land one move on the ground to put Peach in a bad position.

IMO, we don't get juggled badly at all in this matchup which is a huge point in our favor since that can be really bad against some characters. The battle in the neutral position is focusing much more on the horizontal spacing game, and who can juke the other into making a mistake. What I've noticed is that Peach will have difficulty dealing with our grounded spacing (dsmash, dtilt, jabs), especially dsmash, and will then resort to trying to float at head level to avoid these spacing moves. If you see Peach looking to start a float, I found you can usually run and shfair before they can get an aerial out to cover themselves.

The horizontal spacing game is pretty fun. Peach's fair outranges our bair slightly I think, that thing is massive, but we outspeed it so we can take advantage of that. It's also easy to see coming and shield, but do not try to punish it OOS. Peach fair autocancel to jab outspeeds even our jab OOS, unless you PS it of course. I usually try to avoid this situation all together instead, by getting Peach's face and staying in the air more.

Camp game: Peach's turnips are.. okay. With ground speed as fast as ours, you can punish Peach for pulling turnips fairly easily with either dash attack or grab, which are both excellent punishes in this matchup, so this makes the turnips a lot easier to deal with. If you let the Peach pick them all the time you will have a really hard time because of the many ways they can use them, to create grounded combos with glidetoss, for space control thrown vertically, or holding onto them in float to combo with aerials. Since they fly fairly slowly in the air, if the Peach is being predictable with how they are throwing them, we can simply jab them out of the air pretty easily to catch them. Peach can hit you right after you try to catch them though if they catch on, so don't get frame trapped.

Our suitpieces are very good if you can manage them well. They serve to get Peach off the stage, which is great because while gimping Peach is pretty tricky since we can't do much to punish their up b (besides Nick's dazzle apparently lol), Peach has a very hard time getting off the edge back onto the stage if you play your cards right.

The pieces aren't as effective in an actual juggle situation like they normally are only because Peach's dair is very good at canceling them out. You can still bait the dair with the piece and aerial to punish, however, and if she airdodges well you have a ******** amount of punish time on your hands against a slow falling character. Seriously, if you can learn to outspace the dair with our uair, Peach should never come down from a juggle. However this is easier said than done, and Peach can mix it up between floated dairs and fast falled to make it trickier for us.

Aerial peach vs us on the ground is interesting, definitely in Peach's favor. Peach will generally either fair as a transition to her ground game, or pressure our shield with dairs and nair to the ground, in my experience. If peach is dairing your shield, first of all angle up cause it pokes hard. Depending on how Peach maneuver's the float is how you can attempt to punish/escape the situation; if she dairs and stays on top or moves back in front of you, uair is a good punish. If she moves behind your shield she will probably try to come for another pass or bair/nair down to the ground. None of this is easily punishable, so i would probably just froll away and reset. The lesson to be learned here is do not attempt to shield camp this matchup at all; instead of allowing her to dair your shield, fair her to begin with before she can put you in a bad position.

I'll write more if I think of more, but I think that matchup knowledge helps ZS loads more than it does Peach, and while this is a weird one I think it's 55-45, almost 60-40 but not quite
 
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