shlike
Smash Ace
Fighting falco is fun imo
I honestly think that diddy is more annoying than falco
I honestly think that diddy is more annoying than falco
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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread
- Thread starter TheZeroSuit
- Start date
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
That's because your Diddy is better than your Falco.
Duh.
shlike
Smash Ace
Choice
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 2,578
i wouldnt imagine diddy being that bad for zss with all the infinites. at least thats what i thought, i could be wrong. ZSS is like my worst character even though i think she's really fun.
edit: does anyone else see "Page 128 of 134" at the bottom even though this is the page it turns to when you click last?
edit: does anyone else see "Page 128 of 134" at the bottom even though this is the page it turns to when you click last?
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Yes our matchup discussion is ****ed up in multiple ways lol
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
One thing that's really nice is that Falco really can't use SHDL at mid range on you if you have a suitpiece in hand. You can throw the piece as he shoots the first laser, it'll hit him before he can land to cancel his lag, before he can down b. This removes the most threatening aspect of Falco's game and forces him to either phantasm away or try and be aggressive at close range to knock the piece out of our hands.
If he tries to just SH single laser to keep the option of a reflector open, we can use our SH approaches more easily
If he tries to just SH single laser to keep the option of a reflector open, we can use our SH approaches more easily
Dakpo
Smash Lord
so nick vs dehf was never recorded?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Nope.
let the crying commence.
shlike
Smash Ace
just beat him again in dc/dallas nick
easy stuff
easy stuff
solecalibur
Smash Master
Do you want to rap this up and move on , or should we keep it for a bit? Im suprized any falco mains are not coming in here there normally pretty productive
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
i want to here what more people have to say. this should be our most thorough matchup discussion, but no one seems to want to post for whatever reason
solecalibur
Smash Master
Once I went to Apex I came to realize I really dont know this MU and I just rely on gimmicks that work in my region
I kinda already knew that but it seemed to confirm it
Haven't looked at these yet. Bout to rush to work. But here's a friendly set vs Omni's Falco a few weeks ago. We've been training harder in MD recently and it's been showing. Coney beat Shugo last night thanks to this Falco training yay!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sey4cNWLeG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3hzMqBCpbo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTIQrK8jEw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sey4cNWLeG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3hzMqBCpbo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTIQrK8jEw&feature=related
AlexoftheAura
yaylatias.gif
Tonight at 8 EST we will be discussing the ZSS matchup in the Lucario Metagame IRC, anybody who feels that they can contribute please stop by.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283638
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283638
solecalibur
Smash Master
Can we at least discuss MU #s I still think its 70/30 or 65/35 and we just out play the crap outta the falcos we beat
Ima talk to kismet about this match up in detail this weekend. I'll post anything that hasnt already been said along with what i know about the match up when i get back. IMO this match up is 35-65 except on FD where i feel it is futile to play on.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Falco is amazing on RC.
It's 55:45 Falco on that stage.
It's 65:35 ZSS on Brinstar though.
It's 55:45 Falco on that stage.
It's 65:35 ZSS on Brinstar though.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
That high on Brinstar? I assumed it was in ZSS's favor, but that's a larger advantage than what I assumed. Battlefield is definitely where I feel the most comfortable against him, but maybe I should be counterpicking Brinstar against him a bit more.
What about Frigate?
What about Frigate?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Frigate is okay, if you don't get spiked on the right.
Only reason Brinstar is SO good, is you can crawl on the bottom-right, and Falco CANNOT lazer you. This FORCES him to approach, which... never happens otherwise really...
Falco would be even if he wanted to approach us.
Only reason Brinstar is SO good, is you can crawl on the bottom-right, and Falco CANNOT lazer you. This FORCES him to approach, which... never happens otherwise really...
Falco would be even if he wanted to approach us.
Well i meant in general i felt the match up was 35/65. On stages like rainbow cruise and brinstar i'd say it was even/in our favor. I would also say on BF i feel like the match up is closer to 40/60 or at least to me. But on stages like smashville, YI, lylat cruise, and PS1 kismet makes me feel like its 35/65 :[. I havent vsed kismet on brinstar yet since he always bans it but rainbow seems close to even. I'm like 1-1 w/ him there.
Also i dont think frigate is really that bad for either character overall. I beat my first falco on frigate :]. So i'd say it was at least 40/60(or worse) there but i cant say for sure since i rarely see that stage.
Also i dont think frigate is really that bad for either character overall. I beat my first falco on frigate :]. So i'd say it was at least 40/60(or worse) there but i cant say for sure since i rarely see that stage.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Stagewise IMO:
FD is the worst. I duno about Japes, I never play there though and it hasn't been legal in over a year here so idc. Probly 30-70 here.
SV vs BF... I duno, I feel like I do better on Smashville for some reason. They're both similar stage length. I think I might like it because the moving plat gives us another option when we're trying to get off the ledge, which I find hard to do with ZSS in general, especially against Falco. Probly both something like 40-60
Lylat: The slope is terrible for Falco, he can't phantasm away easily and lasers can be ducked instead of crawling or will hit the stage, depending on the slope. This stage is really really good for dash locks, because they will usually have the laggy ending with phantasm. If they eat a dash lock, you should look for opportunities to dash lock them back the other way. I personally hate this stage because it makes aerials, side b, grab.. pretty much anything much harder to space. 55-45 us
Yoshis: This stage is like Lylat but less extreme. We have the same ability to crouch under lasers with the slope on the ends of the stage. I like this stage better than Lylat because it doesn't hurt our spacing yet still messes with some of the things falco does. 55-45
PS1: This is pretty much just as bad as FD imo, the transitions aren't really good or bad for us either way, and usually just stall time. This could be okay if you're going for a timeout (I haven't tried it), by using a suitpiece and crawl, though I believe there is a slight lip on the the edge that allows standing lasers to hit us, so you'd have to crawl in front of the actual edge. 35-65
Brinstar: Our best stage in the matchup. I don't agree that it's because of the lasers like Nick said though, most stages outside of FD SV BF have something that allows us to avoid lasers when we have a lead. It's good because Falco cannot phantasm, which makes his camping much much much easier to deal with. 60-40 us
RC: I agree with Nick here, this stage is not that great for us. Falco has enough vertical height and acceleration to avoid us if that's all he is trying to do. If he doesn't get hit, he shouldn't ever be forced to use his up b. I think his ability to dthrow spike us is too dangerous, it's an automatic kill on many parts of the stage. 45-55
Frigate: Not really sure. I don't see much that would make it heavily in one or the other's favor. You'd have to be really careful at CG% not to get grabbed on the first transformation, which would confine you to the edge or the plat mostly. The second transition has that lovely bowl, probly a slight advantage for us on that one. I'd say 45-55
Halberd: Not much xp, I don't really know what to think about this stage.
Delfino: Same as Halberd
FD is the worst. I duno about Japes, I never play there though and it hasn't been legal in over a year here so idc. Probly 30-70 here.
SV vs BF... I duno, I feel like I do better on Smashville for some reason. They're both similar stage length. I think I might like it because the moving plat gives us another option when we're trying to get off the ledge, which I find hard to do with ZSS in general, especially against Falco. Probly both something like 40-60
Lylat: The slope is terrible for Falco, he can't phantasm away easily and lasers can be ducked instead of crawling or will hit the stage, depending on the slope. This stage is really really good for dash locks, because they will usually have the laggy ending with phantasm. If they eat a dash lock, you should look for opportunities to dash lock them back the other way. I personally hate this stage because it makes aerials, side b, grab.. pretty much anything much harder to space. 55-45 us
Yoshis: This stage is like Lylat but less extreme. We have the same ability to crouch under lasers with the slope on the ends of the stage. I like this stage better than Lylat because it doesn't hurt our spacing yet still messes with some of the things falco does. 55-45
PS1: This is pretty much just as bad as FD imo, the transitions aren't really good or bad for us either way, and usually just stall time. This could be okay if you're going for a timeout (I haven't tried it), by using a suitpiece and crawl, though I believe there is a slight lip on the the edge that allows standing lasers to hit us, so you'd have to crawl in front of the actual edge. 35-65
Brinstar: Our best stage in the matchup. I don't agree that it's because of the lasers like Nick said though, most stages outside of FD SV BF have something that allows us to avoid lasers when we have a lead. It's good because Falco cannot phantasm, which makes his camping much much much easier to deal with. 60-40 us
RC: I agree with Nick here, this stage is not that great for us. Falco has enough vertical height and acceleration to avoid us if that's all he is trying to do. If he doesn't get hit, he shouldn't ever be forced to use his up b. I think his ability to dthrow spike us is too dangerous, it's an automatic kill on many parts of the stage. 45-55
Frigate: Not really sure. I don't see much that would make it heavily in one or the other's favor. You'd have to be really careful at CG% not to get grabbed on the first transformation, which would confine you to the edge or the plat mostly. The second transition has that lovely bowl, probly a slight advantage for us on that one. I'd say 45-55
Halberd: Not much xp, I don't really know what to think about this stage.
Delfino: Same as Halberd
These are just my opinions based off of how i do and what not. Lylat and yoshis i talked to kismet about since i felt it was his favor but wasnt sure. Not all of these explain why they are good or bad since i am not sure of them all.
Lylat- The only reason i feel this is bad is because i dont see kismet side b that often in this match up. He only does it when it truely knows its gonna hit so the tilting isnt that much of a problem for falco if he doesnt need side b. I'd say the match up there would still be in his favor like 60/40 or 55/45. The tilting helps us but at the same time it can help him hit us easier. I also dont land dash attack that often so dash attack lock isnt that big of a difference. Mainly what i got from kismet: tilt doesnt prevent falco from abusing phantasm so if they want to abuse its an option.
Yoshi- I usually dont do that well on this stage. I mean i guess i win a little more here then i do on sv but the plat form is rather annoying to me. It does help when its facing the correct way and his lasers cant hit me but overall i dont like it. 35/65 because once again phantasm isnt limited here.
FD- Like i said before this stage is absolutly futile to play on. I still dont understand how i get ***** so hard here but i might as well give up the match when it comes here. I have only ever been 2 stocked/ 3 stocked. 20/80 lol.
Japes(if legal)- I have only ever played here once and that was online(lol). Falco camped the **** out of me and i couldnt do much since side b latches onto the ledges. I also couldnt kill him very easily since the only options were the left and right sides. Not gonna stay much more since im pretty inexperienced in real matches here. 30/70 maybe even worse.
Halberd- I find this worse for us then him. We can both get earlier kills off the top but once the stage transforms it turns into an fd type of stage almost with that stupid platform in the middle which doesnt help much at all. 35/65
PS1- This stage is probably not as bad as i feel it is as long as you dont get to careless when the stage is completely flat. The only reason i lose here badly is because of my inexperience there and it being kismets favorite stage sides FD. 40/60 or 35/65
Delphino- I actually dont find this stage very bad. I cant post much about it since i dont play here but when i did i think its like 40/60 but is probably 35/65.
Brinstar and Rainbow- Probably dont have to say much about these since everyone already has talked about it. I'd agree with nick and say 45/55 for rainbow and 60/40 for Brinstar imo.
Battlefield- For some reason i feel like its much easier to approach falco here but cant explain it. Its also easier to kill him here because of the size of the stage. I'd say like 40/60.
SV: I dont like this stage against falco. I've tried using the platforms but always have little success. Not gonna say much since i dont go here. 35/65 to me.
Siege: I dont think its that bad cept for the last transformation but i still dont think its our favor. I like the enclosed space for the first form and i can escape lasers with the second. I'd say like 40/60 or something.
Lylat- The only reason i feel this is bad is because i dont see kismet side b that often in this match up. He only does it when it truely knows its gonna hit so the tilting isnt that much of a problem for falco if he doesnt need side b. I'd say the match up there would still be in his favor like 60/40 or 55/45. The tilting helps us but at the same time it can help him hit us easier. I also dont land dash attack that often so dash attack lock isnt that big of a difference. Mainly what i got from kismet: tilt doesnt prevent falco from abusing phantasm so if they want to abuse its an option.
Yoshi- I usually dont do that well on this stage. I mean i guess i win a little more here then i do on sv but the plat form is rather annoying to me. It does help when its facing the correct way and his lasers cant hit me but overall i dont like it. 35/65 because once again phantasm isnt limited here.
FD- Like i said before this stage is absolutly futile to play on. I still dont understand how i get ***** so hard here but i might as well give up the match when it comes here. I have only ever been 2 stocked/ 3 stocked. 20/80 lol.
Japes(if legal)- I have only ever played here once and that was online(lol). Falco camped the **** out of me and i couldnt do much since side b latches onto the ledges. I also couldnt kill him very easily since the only options were the left and right sides. Not gonna stay much more since im pretty inexperienced in real matches here. 30/70 maybe even worse.
Halberd- I find this worse for us then him. We can both get earlier kills off the top but once the stage transforms it turns into an fd type of stage almost with that stupid platform in the middle which doesnt help much at all. 35/65
PS1- This stage is probably not as bad as i feel it is as long as you dont get to careless when the stage is completely flat. The only reason i lose here badly is because of my inexperience there and it being kismets favorite stage sides FD. 40/60 or 35/65
Delphino- I actually dont find this stage very bad. I cant post much about it since i dont play here but when i did i think its like 40/60 but is probably 35/65.
Brinstar and Rainbow- Probably dont have to say much about these since everyone already has talked about it. I'd agree with nick and say 45/55 for rainbow and 60/40 for Brinstar imo.
Battlefield- For some reason i feel like its much easier to approach falco here but cant explain it. Its also easier to kill him here because of the size of the stage. I'd say like 40/60.
SV: I dont like this stage against falco. I've tried using the platforms but always have little success. Not gonna say much since i dont go here. 35/65 to me.
Siege: I dont think its that bad cept for the last transformation but i still dont think its our favor. I like the enclosed space for the first form and i can escape lasers with the second. I'd say like 40/60 or something.
kismet2
Smash Ace
it actually is one of the many reasons...his phantasm helps him camp you hard and take you from 60 to 90 from phantasms and lasers. with phantasm you're allowed to outrun zss and reset spacing. btw you don't punish a well space phantasm with shielding...by then he's on the other side of the stage, you have to roll into the direction he's going.
kismet2
Smash Ace
oh i'm sorry i forgot that you had a sixth sense for punishing phantasm...no lol XD do you know about the first third of the phantasm? falco doesn't neccessary have to be in your face to use it and crawling doesn't get you anywhere(assuming that you're approaching or even trying to camp with it)
Dakpo
Smash Lord
very useful kismet keep going please!!!
solecalibur
Smash Master
Crawling = less sheilding and all you can do is forward b or approach us if we crawl away , Punishing Phantasm isnt that difficult but if the falco actually uses it sparingly and safely is when it gets scary in the MU , at low lvls of play most falcos will just hang back shoot lazors , forward b and jab spam and its easy to bait and punish , high lvls of play ... -.-" ugh fml lol
kismet2
Smash Ace
yeah i agree crawling does mean less shielding which is awesome but unless zss has the lead i'm not sure if falco would try to approach that so getting the lead is always crucial vs falco so he won't camp you to death and it'd force him to approach(and his approach options are meh). yeah zss just has a problem with falco in general his chaingrab takes half of your stock away, lasers limit her options, can reflect, he can run from her, kill her at a decent percent, and pressure her very well. zss kill moves are side b, uair(they have to be in the air), and bair but what are zss options vs falco?(i'm being serious >_>)
solecalibur
Smash Master
Just get rid of killing at decent % and I agree with you , I still think falco cant kill any better then sonic imo
kismet2
Smash Ace
XD i'll actually agree with you on that, i forgot that there is a difference between being able to kill and being able to land those moves and falco imo has an easier time landing his moves than sonic
but yeah zss "dash attack lock" what percents does it work and what can you do out of it?
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I'm not too certain about the percentages, but I usually follow up with a down tilt once the dash attack string reaches a ledge. Once, I dash attacked a Marth off stage and used an up tilt and it stage spiked him somehow. I've done it two or three times in the past, not sure how it worked.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It's after 40%ish and you can low angle ftilt falco at the end of the stage which forces him to use his second jump to recover. She can also followup to any move with 6 frames or less of hitstun. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235429 info is here
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Repost? D:
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
utilt hits slightly below stage level, so yeah you could feasibly dash attack to utilt stage spike them
kismet2
Smash Ace
wow that's really good and can't you set it up from a dsmash at like 50? that's be cool and does she have a fthrow chain grab on falco? if so fthrow into dash attack near the ledge for possible gimps from dsmash
This guy doesnt listen at all. I've told him about dash attack lock before including around when it starts and he never believes me >:[. Yea Zss has a fthrow chain on falco which i have also told u about.....