Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Zero]

Can do it straight of a dsmash x 2 at like 20%.

fthrow chain is like 1 throw + regrab at 0%

Also dmash lock from 0-50% or so

 

[kismet2]

chaz i've beaten you so i don't have to listen jk and it's because you NEVER do it to me. i just shield everything and punish XD

also from the middle of the stage does two fthrows into dash attack(which pushes falco offstage) into dsmash work? that'd be neat for a 0-death and i personally think any stage that definitely limits falcos stage control could tremendously help zss

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The chain grab and dsmash chain are both 0-40 or 50.

The dash attack lock is 38%-55% (those are starting percents, it can actually go much higher than that).

kismet, dsmash offstage is almost never guaranteed because dsmash has a lot of start-up frames. However, it's pretty hard for Falco to avoid because of the nature of his recovery (he can avoid it though).

 

[Sovereign]

So what do you do with the items? I'm the type of ZSS that works hard to maintain suit pieces, but Falco's ******** reflector won't allow that, so I'm gonna guess that I pitch'em and go hands up with him?

 

[Darky-Sama]

I always throw the pieces in the air or at the ground depending on where I'm at on the stage. Throwing it downward can get you hit if he's close enough to use the reflector. You could also Z-Drop or throw it at him from the air while above him. But personally, I would just throw it upward to preserve them until he's offstage. They punish him EXTREMELY well if he's offstage.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Just don't throw them at him. I only keep one, though.

 

[DRN]

chaz i've beaten you so i don't have to listen jk and it's because you NEVER do it to me. i just shield everything and punish XD

also from the middle of the stage does two fthrows into dash attack(which pushes falco offstage) into dsmash work? that'd be neat for a 0-death and i personally think any stage that definitely limits falcos stage control could tremendously help zss

Lol Calvin lets mm at awa, ima beat ya this time. The 3-1 loss was me sandbagging against falco since hes so easy .

I usually keep 1 or 2 pieces of armor. I dont mind the reflector that much since it could mess them up too if they always think were gonna throw it. O ya and side b the **** out of them if they spam reflector (calvin...)

 

[NickRiddle]

After sitting down and seriously thinking about the tools in this MU, I think it's 6:4 Falco.
If I go into a match thinking I will lose due to the MU, I will.
If I go into a match thinking, "I'll just play my best," I beat Dee Eee Aych Eff.
No namesearching.

 

[DRN]

After sitting down and seriously thinking about the tools in this MU, I think it's 6:4 Falco.
If I go into a match thinking I will lose due to the MU, I will.
If I go into a match thinking, "I'll just play my best," I beat Dee Eee Aych Eff.
No namesearching.

Like i understand we Have the tools to beat Falco but the main problem with the match up is Using the tools on him. But atm i still kinda think its 65:35 Overall. Buuut thats just imo and iunno super high level since calvin sucks and all(kidding ;D).

 

[Darky-Sama]

The main problem with Falco is that he can actually jump -> immediate phantasm back and forth across the stage when we get close; and unfortunately, he limits us to doing just that. I've actually been doing this with quite a few of my characters: approaching with a dash -> shield to see how they react. If you're playing one of those Falcos that immediately phantasm when they feel you're getting too close, you can drop the shield, approach and have time to side+B before they can buffer... oh I don't know, reflector or laser?

He's ridiculously easy to punish offstage, but getting inside of his comfort zone is just plain difficult. I'm actually leaning toward 4:6 as well. The match-up is too heavily dependent on just playing smarter than the Falco. We barely have any tools that really even it out.

...also, dash -> shield -> dtilt OoS isn't too bad in this match-up if you're good with spacing and timing.

 

[solecalibur]

There is no way this is as good as the snake MU , I still feel we have to outplay falco and snake but you literally have to be reading the falco's mind (compared to snake 6/4 where you just dont charge random dsmash and take your time approaching ) to even fair with him , that seems 70/30 or 65/35 MU material

 

[kismet2]

Lol Calvin lets mm at awa, ima beat ya this time. The 3-1 loss was me sandbagging against falco since hes so easy .

I usually keep 1 or 2 pieces of armor. I dont mind the reflector that much since it could mess them up too if they always think were gonna throw it. O ya and side b the **** out of them if they spam reflector (calvin...)

no dude i was sandbagging too, the one win you had was because i felt bad

After sitting down and seriously thinking about the tools in this MU, I think it's 6:4 Falco.
If I go into a match thinking I will lose due to the MU, I will.
If I go into a match thinking, "I'll just play my best," I beat Dee Eee Aych Eff.
No namesearching.

seriously when i thought about what zss can do, i came to the conclusion that it's definitely 6:4 too and don't worry i'll tell him :D haha jk

There is no way this is as good as the snake MU , I still feel we have to outplay falco and snake but you literally have to be reading the falco's mind (compared to snake 6/4 where you just dont charge random dsmash and take your time approaching ) to even fair with him , that seems 70/30 or 65/35 MU material

well unlike falco, snake has explosives everywhere which zss doesn't not want to come in contact with plus she dies at like 90. against falco you'll have an easier time approaching since he doesn't have alot of ranged attacks in his arsenal(he does but his has slow startup and your ranged attacks just straight out beat his). you can try to pressure him into a corner and force him to use phantasm, as long as you're poking from mid range punishing the phantasm is no problem rather than trying to actually approach and have him abuse the first third

 

[clowsui]

Crawling = less sheilding and all you can do is forward b or approach us if we crawl away , Punishing Phantasm isnt that difficult but if the falco actually uses it sparingly and safely is when it gets scary in the MU , at low lvls of play most falcos will just hang back shoot lazors , forward b and jab spam and its easy to bait and punish , high lvls of play ... -.-" ugh fml lol

IDK if i did this against you or not o_o

 

[Nefarious B]

There is no way this is as good as the snake MU , I still feel we have to outplay falco and snake but you literally have to be reading the falco's mind (compared to snake 6/4 where you just dont charge random dsmash and take your time approaching ) to even fair with him , that seems 70/30 or 65/35 MU material

The thing is that Falco doesn't punish as hard outside of CG, which means you have more opportunities to read him and figure him out before you're dead.

If you watch Nick's most recent vids vs MVD you see exactly why Snake is not even (though I think it's 45-55). You can **** him hard but it only takes 3 mistakes for you to be at kill percent. Normally, ZSS has the same ability to **** you off like, 3 reads, but Snakes weight means we have to put in more work than usual to finish him.

 

[DRN]

Kismet sucks, I lost to him 2-1 in our mm :[. This also gave me some more info on delfino and halberd though.

Smashville still sucks and i hate it :[. I couldnt really do to much there unless i was on the platform(kinda). My main problem was that i couldnt get him midrange because of how long and flat it is. His first laser always hit my feet when i was on the platform so i couldnt use it too much to my advantage unless i jumped but doing that still didnt help since all i was doing was avoiding. This stage basically made me play to his rhythm which was stupid and i just ended up getting grabbed easily at low %'s even when i was super careful. But i'd say at worse its 35/65 and at best 40/60

Delfino i wasnt really to sure but i like this stage against most characters. I took advantage of the platforms whenever he was hit above which was probably the main factor that helped. The water can give us early kills if hes far enough away since if he lands in the water u can side b right before you land in it (<3). If u dont think u'll have time for it he'll most likely phantasm to get back on the stage so either prepare for it by either jabbing him out then follow up with like a dsmash or by punishing his landing. If hes close in the water i'd suggest trying to dsmash him if u think it'll reach. I didnt have a problem with any of the transformations since they benefit us as much as him. You can try to walk off chain grab (dsmash or fthrow) if you can get it off. I believe the ceiling is lower so that helps both us and him. The match up here imo is around 40/60 or 45/55.
Small Edit: I forgot u can also down b him or dair him when hes in the water but i wouldnt suggest that at all.

Halberd I didnt expect him at all to bring me here but it was definitely one of the stupidest places to play falco along w/ FD. The only good thing that happened for me on this stage is living to 200%. First stock he completely dominated me so i cant really give to much advice on the first/second moving part of the stage. I just played really dumb here. The 3rd Transformation was a lot like FD so it was easier for him to stay away and a lot harder for me to get him at midrange. The ceilings low so it helps getting earlier kills w/ up air. Whenever he landed on the platform it was easy to take advantage w/ upsmash(shield poke) and sometimes upair. I really hate this stage now and would say the match up is around 35/65 or 30/70.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I agree that Falco's difficulty is often overstated because he is a frustrating match-up. You have to completely change the way you play and be very aware constantly of why you are changing what you're doing.

I'm not sure that makes it unwinnable, although 6/4 is stretching it a little bit.

Just because you take a lot of laser damage doesn't mean it's unwinnable. That's the problem I see when we analyze this match-up. "We can't get close!" Actually ZSS has some pretty strong anti-Falco camping tools with a few good reads and she can put on some hurt.

 

[solecalibur]

Its those dam freaken jabs and reach of his grab, I could care less about lazor spam and forward b spam , I like that its predictable

edit - I'll stop being counter productive...

 

[kismet2]

Kismet sucks, I lost to him 2-1 in our mm :[. This also gave me some more info on delfino and halberd though.

Smashville still sucks and i hate it :[. I couldnt really do to much there unless i was on the platform(kinda). My main problem was that i couldnt get him midrange because of how long and flat it is. His first laser always hit my feet when i was on the platform so i couldnt use it too much to my advantage unless i jumped but doing that still didnt help since all i was doing was avoiding. This stage basically made me play to his rhythm which was stupid and i just ended up getting grabbed easily at low %'s even when i was super careful. But i'd say at worse its 35/65 and at best 40/60

Delfino i wasnt really to sure but i like this stage against most characters. I took advantage of the platforms whenever he was hit above which was probably the main factor that helped. The water can give us early kills if hes far enough away since if he lands in the water u can side b right before you land in it (<3). If u dont think u'll have time for it he'll most likely phantasm to get back on the stage so either prepare for it by either jabbing him out then follow up with like a dsmash or by punishing his landing. If hes close in the water i'd suggest trying to dsmash him if u think it'll reach. I didnt have a problem with any of the transformations since they benefit us as much as him. You can try to walk off chain grab (dsmash or fthrow) if you can get it off. I believe the ceiling is lower so that helps both us and him. The match up here imo is around 40/60 or 45/55.
Small Edit: I forgot u can also down b him or dair him when hes in the water but i wouldnt suggest that at all.

Halberd I didnt expect him at all to bring me here but it was definitely one of the stupidest places to play falco along w/ FD. The only good thing that happened for me on this stage is living to 200%. First stock he completely dominated me so i cant really give to much advice on the first/second moving part of the stage. I just played really dumb here. The 3rd Transformation was a lot like FD so it was easier for him to stay away and a lot harder for me to get him at midrange. The ceilings low so it helps getting earlier kills w/ up air. Whenever he landed on the platform it was easy to take advantage w/ upsmash(shield poke) and sometimes upair. I really hate this stage now and would say the match up is around 35/65 or 30/70.

you suck and got lucky on delfino jk i kept dying at low percents but in general it's harder to abuse phantasm because of the small stage you have to start off on and the platforms help you manuever around the stage(along with other tranformations) next time it'll be 2-0 haha and we still need to falco ditto on ps2 it's my best stage i promise

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falco's grab game and jabs usually don't bother me, it's definitely the laser and phantasm shenanigans that cause problems. Taking him to a stage that limits his camping abilities seems to be the smartest choice.

Avoid Final Destination.

 

[DRN]

you suck and got lucky on delfino jk i kept dying at low percents but in general it's harder to abuse phantasm because of the small stage you have to start off on and the platforms help you manuever around the stage(along with other tranformations) next time it'll be 2-0 haha and we still need to falco ditto on ps2 it's my best stage i promise

Naa u'll never beat me 2-0 although next time i vs u in tourney ima win 2-0.


Yea lasers and phantasm are the bigger problem as long as the falco uses them at the right moments instead of using them randomly. I really dont have a problem with falco grabbing me (unless he cg to spikes me on stage).

The CG is indeed dumb but to me its really just a minor inconvenience unless he spikes me on stage. As long as i stay calm and play normally i'll be able to catch right back up with our shenanigans. The reason the chain grab really only effects if he spikes me back on stage is because there are so many follow ups for falco depending on how i respond when im on the ground. The major follow up that happens to me at times is---Whenever i use my get up attack after being spiked on stage he'll usually follow up with a jump to dair to another dair and then maybe into a back air. I cant really do much(not anything that would put me in a bad situation at least) to prevent it either if he predicted the get up and lands the dair :/. Sometimes trying to get out of it makes it worse too. Mulitple times when i've tried up air, nair, or air dodging kismet has followed up his dair to fsmash.

Jabs are semi annoying but i really dont think u should be that close anyway. U should pretty much always remain midrange if your on the ground unless u see an opening u think u can take. I also believe u can jab him in the middle of his jabs because of the speed of ours.

 

[Dakpo]

i want to just see a vid of nick playing a good falco....thats all i need

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8omUWEaopno This is notable.

The prevailing idea here is that Dazwa uses Dash Attack to close gaps when Falco short hops.

 

[Dakpo]

LMAO that match was funny. It's been a long time since I played Pelca. Pelca played so stupidly -__- you would think a falco main would know that up tilt would kill zss after 150% after a power shield (instead he grabbed -__-). lol dawza's like screw zss gimmicks im going to go super agro the whole match XD. All in all if pelca truly had his mind in the game those final stocks the set would have most likely been his. Not that im saying anything bad against dazwa (inb4flame) just kinda seemed like a dumb fluke on falcos part. I'm not sure that's the style we should play against falco, but hey, to each is his own.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think he got it right (cept he was being a baddie with the armor pieces). Dashing powershield until you get close, when you can crouch a laser or hit the falco out of SH with a DA, is the way to go.

I think Dazwa could have been much more aggressive with his edgeguards though. You can stand at the ledge and hold jab, as long as he's not close enough to abuse the first 1/3 invincibility he'll get hit and then have to recover low. Fair is also really good since it lasts long enough to cover both an on stage and ledge snap phantasm. Even just charging a nB then ledgehogging kills Falcos options if he's lost his double jump

 

[Zero]

Pelca really likes to dair after getting dtilted, should abuse that to land dsmashes.

 

[Nefarious B]

Moved to the BR for more discussion

10 nvms

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

So did ZSS move up any tier lists since like 6 months ago?

 

[Zero]

She's in B now

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Sweet...I might get back in the game now...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wow that's been a while...

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik boards are discussing the ZSS MU.: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=289684

We need help. Not many of us have played the MU.

 

[Z1GMA]

Large advantage Vs ROB?
Why is that?
I find it pretty neutral.

Also, Dsmash -> Footstool Infinite is crap.
Not reliable at all. Not even the best ZSSs use it in high level play.

 

[solecalibur]

Large advantage Vs ROB?
Why is that?
I find it pretty neutral.

Also, Dsmash -> Footstool Infinite is crap.
Not reliable at all. Not even the best ZSSs use it in high level play.

Completely agree, I still think its at least a soft counter but I agree for the most part


So do we want to move on and go to ROB or some other character?

 

[Nefarious B]

Has there ever been a "high level" ROB vs ZSS match? That's what I thought lol

 

[NickRiddle]

Are there any "high level" ROBs?
That's what I thought.
ROB sucks.

 

[Zero]

loooooool get done Cheebo

 

[solecalibur]

I've seen a lot of better ROBs in my own region (I think he is the far end of my region but he isnt even as successful)

 

[solecalibur]

double post

What do you want to do next?
Im feeling motivated to do something
(I'll update by tonight and probly update the personal MU thingy also)

 

[Dakpo]

How long since we discussed Sonic??? or Diddy??? maybe even snake

 

[solecalibur]

Im working on a new MU thread , I hate this one