Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Agrreeeeeed :D

 

[Dakpo]

^ Dunno,
But i'd like to get to know the MK matchup again too.
NR says he has n problem with it, and it'd be nice to have another discussion i can join in as well.

there is a reason NR can place well at nationals and none of us can/have.
So MK or Diddy? Both are extremely important in the current METAgame

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Meta.
You can never get too much Meta discussion.

 

[TheZeroSuit]

META KNIGHT

Pros:

Cons:

Final Verdict: 40:60​

Matchup Advice: Coming Soon

• Game Plan:
  
  
  
• Suitpiece Strategy:
  
  
  
• Long Range:
  
  
  
• Medium Range:
  
  
  
• Close Range:
  
  
  
• In the air:
  
  
  
• When Meta Knight is Recovering:
  
  
  
• When ZSS is Recovering:
  
  
  
• Matchup Unique Information:
  
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
• Stages to Avoid:

Meta Knight Contributors:

xxxx​

Meta Knight's Thread​

Really Old Information:

Orion's:

At the last two tournaments I went to, 3 out of my 4 bracket losses were to metaknights. IMO this is ZSS's worst matchup for a number of reasons.

The first thing I'd like to bring up is the normal advantage of range that ZSS has over lots of characters. There are two moves that allow this advantage, the side b and the gun. Metaknight has answers to both of these. Because of his ridiculous dash speed, dash attack and dash grab, he is able to punish the in-between time of the side b. even if you use techniques like b sticking. If you spam the gun at him, he is able to come in from above, or use his b attack on you.

That brings me to the next point I'd like to make, metaknight's b attack is imbalanced. Even with ranged moves, it's nearly impossible to interrupt or hit him out of it. If you shield the move, you may be able to punish the lag if and only if you have a full shield as soon as it's hitting you. Otherwise your shield will run out and you will be hit by the move. The best option zss has is to just run from this move. I really haven't come accross any other way to counter this move, and when I play good metaknights, it is spammed against me.

Next I'd like to talk about metaknight's punishablility. Lots of high level players have been exercising the new brawl feature of being able to act quickly without shield lag. This allows characters to do tilts or even fast smashes out of shield. Against metaknight, however, there is no lag time in between his attacks, and trying to punish him out of your shield will just end up in you eating a dsmash.

Finally, Metaknight's small size makes a lot of zss's moves very difficult to hit with. Since many of her moves are high powered with small hit boxes, it makes for a difficult time when you're trying to land one of these attacks on such a small target.

For the given reasons I feel that metaknight is ZSS's worst matchup.

MK is definitely one of Zamus's hardest matches, by far. You can side+B through both his side+B and neutral-B, but the smaller the stage, the harder it is to avoid his bullcrap. His inability to be comboed and RIDICULOUS priority with practically no lag on his moves makes him not only hard to punish, but hard to hit. His size only makes matters worse as it becomes even harder to land side+Bs since he's a small target and he can duck under several of her grounded moves. Sadly, all of the characters I play as (Zamus, Zelda, Link, and Lucario) suffer horrible matches against him due to speed and priority issues (in comparison with MK).

Snakeee:

I'll give extra attention to this one because it is one of my favorite match ups and I have a lot of experience playing top Metaknight players.

One thing to look out for, however is his tornado. This will stop both of your approaches, so whenever he does this I try to run to the other side of the stage and shield whatever is left of the attack. Metas often try to land right next to you and down smash after this, so I immediently short hop out of my shield after the tornado and B-air them after their D-smash comes out. If the tornado is close to the ground, ZSS can grab him out of it or down smash him. However, the better Metaknight players seem to come from above with it.

Most decent Metas will attempt to backwards shuttle loop as an edgeguard off the stage. It is possible to down B attack and spike him during it if you time it just right. Even if it doesn't spike, usually you will trade hits. When this happens most of the time ZSS gets sent towards the stage while Meta gets sent further away from it. So, if anyone is going to die from the clash, it's Metaknight.

ZSS can actually edgeguard Meta better than he can edgeguard her, especially with his Up-B taken away. I tend to be very aggressive with off the stage edgeguarding in general, while I hardly see any other ZSS mains do this. I use forward B a lot for this, and I even hit people with it while they're in the hourglass. This works against most characters including Metaknight.

When Metaknight recovers to the stage with his Shuttle loop and glide attack I do the following. Usually he'll Up-B from under the stage so I've learned to stay away from trying to D-Smash - B-air stage spike him like that.
Instead I'll shield when I expect the Up-B, then when he gets close with his glide (and he's going to glide attack)I usually short hop backwards and forward B him.

Metknights D-Smash out of their shield a lot, especially when you're behind them at higher percentages. Try to anticipate these and counterattack. What I normally do is shield the D-Smash and short hop out of shield and go for a B-air on the other side of him.

ZSS' Down B is perfect for getting out of Meta's combos in general. I don't mean to do the attack part, just the inital down B which will get rid of hitstun quickly, give you invincibility, and give you space to break out. An evasive ZSS is very hard for Metaknight to both combo and KO.

So, now that the MK debates have settled, let's talk about this highly anticipated match-up!

 

[Dakpo]

some more stuff i found while digging in the past

Not a big deal at all, but a small contributor to why I only keep one piece.

The info on this match up like the others is outdated but some of it is still true. Metaknight is the reason I began my new playstyle btw. Spacing forward B's and D-smash does leave you vulnerable, and is not really worth it against someone who knows the match up well.

Ground

65/35 Metaknight

Meta obviously has the advantage here. His fast shieldgrab, makes it hard to make use of your jab and tilts, but they are still useful if you have pressured him a bit or at the right point of an aerial approach. His tornado is so-so against ZSS. It's not too hard to avoid for her, and she can use down B (sometimes with the special footstool) to avoid it a majority of the time. A missed tornado can be punished with a dash attack or grab if Meta is close enough to ZSS at the end of it.
ZSS basically has to bait Meta to leave an opening. Although his approaches are hard to punish, there are instances where she can counterattack. If he goes for aerials, she can up air him out of shield at the right moment unless the approach is too low. If it is too low however, she can jab or up tilt him out of shield. He can put a ton of pressure on her though, so this can not remain effective forever. If Meta goes into the air, falling up airs become very effective and lead into nice combos.

Air

60/40 ZSS

Of course, this is where you want to keep the battle as ZSS. ZSS is more mobile, and has more range and priority than Meta here. Up airs are very key in this match up. It's disjointed hitbox usually beats meta's aerials from any direction. B-air beats his aerials by great range, and is very safe against him for the most part. This isn't to say that Meta is defenseless in the air, becuase this is not true. The fact that his aerials last so long messes up with ZSS' airdodging (like her up airs but to a lesser effect). His up B is a good follow up to them as well, and tornado can be useful in the air also to punish airdoges, but sometimes leave him open. ZSS is also a little better at avoiding aerial approaches because of her down B.

Edgeguarding

55/45 Metaknight

Metaknight has a very slight advantage here. If he makes just the right reads while ZSS is recovering he can punish it, and on occasion, gimp her. If ZSS goes for a tether recovey, and metaknight gets in just the right position, he can actually hit her with an aerial as she is in the start of the grabbing animation.

Meta's Up B is a double-edged sword for edgeguarding ZSS. Whoever predicts the other's move correctly will have the payoff, since ZSS' down B can counter this. In fact, if she does it at just the right moment, Metaknight will be spiked out of his Up B. If the timing is close, but ZSS does the down B a little early, the attacks will usually clash. Metaknight will often be sent further off the stage, and ZSS will be sent back towards the stage. However, if Metaknight waits until after the Down B comes out, he will hit ZSS and not get hit himself at all. This results in a KO at a relatively low percentage.

From the edge, ZSS doesn't have much of a problem at all in recovering. She is one of the best ledgecampers in the game (close to Metaknight) and she can safely shoot paralyzer shots or do Side-B's until Meta gets hit, or it hits hit shield. Either way she can usually just down B footstool over his head after that. Her get up attack while over 100% is very useful as well, and if Meta shields it, she actually can shield herself before Meta's d-smash will come out.

ZSS' edgeguarding isn't too much offstage. The best she can usually go for is one or two forward B's off the stage from a safe distance. It's usually great in most match ups, but it's too risky against Meta to try for much besides the forward B. If it does connect though it's pretty powerful. This is considering that the Meta player knows how to recover well against her though. If they go for the typical recoverys like gliding or side-B these can easily be punished by her side B.

While Meta is on the edge, ZSS has quite a few options. She can go for a down smash, b-air, up air, or side-B and be relatively safe since these outspace anything he can do. If he goes for a ledge hop aerial, it's good for her to shield it and do an up air, jab, or up tilt out of shield.

KO ability
55/45 ZSS

Metaknight's main KO moves are Up B, Downsmash, F-smash, and N-air.
Up B often KO's the earliest, since it is often offstage, or hits her in an angle that makes it hard for her to recover and is pretty strong compared to his other moves.
Downsmash is strong too, and is a bit hard to punish.
F-smash is rare to hit with, but is pretty powerful. It's only real practical use is as a punisher.
N-air is a good move to kill with offstage.

ZSS's KO moves include B-air, Up-air, Side-B, F-air, and Down B.
B-air is the most viable to KO with than anything else. It's abnormally powerful for the speed and range of the attack, and isn't that hard to hit with.
Up-air is the 2nd most viable surprisingly, since it's not too hard to KO Meta with in the air, and it's the easiest to hit with out of these.
Side-B is hard to hit Meta with, but it's not very punishable when used in the air, and has pretty solid kill power.
F-air is like the poor man's B-air XD.
Down B is her strongest move, and can be used in the middle of an aerial assault randomly and will often punish an airdodge. It's mainly used to punish though, like if he's in the middle of a smash attack.
Overall ZSS has more attacks that can kill well, and it's actually easier for her to hit hit with a kill move than it is for him.


Wow I can't believe I ended up typing basically a whole guide on this again. I feel like I got a little lazy on the KO section, but I think that's good for the most part. I give this match up 55/45 Metaknight now.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

dtilt is pretty good in this MU.

 

[FIERCE]

D-tilt is very fetch in this matchup to punish. (:

I like using U-Smash to deal with D-airing Metaknights, but I may be alone on that one. ):

 

[Dakpo]

I had a long talk with dojo about the match up and learned a lot!!! Dtilt is very very useful. Every time i jumped he would nado me. I tried to jump over it but he was really fast at cornering me into it. (of course its dojo ) So i found Dtilt to be extremely useful

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Best things to do against nado?

The only thing i've found useful is to run away and pivot grab.
Usually i end up getting punished for trying to hit dsmash

 

[solecalibur]

Its better that I answer questions then write a summary of What i think or its going to be a jumbled essay

Nado : Run, Cry, Scream , Punch opponent
none of these are the correct answer but if you really want to deal with it;

-Power Sheild Cancel to Utilt
-Run , You out run the nado
- Change your DI while in nado, to make it so MK cant follow up with some dumb shuttle loop
-Hold sheild up
-When the nado retreats dont do anything but stand in place unless it comes back to attempt to get you for another hit
- dont get to discouraged when spammed against it, it doesnt do that much damage if its spammed just discouraging
- if your sheild is more then half gone , your most likely gonna get poked so you can
1. milk time in sheild so you dont get poked for to long
2. forward roll
3. Spotdoge spam , Forward roll
DONT back roll , its way too slow
-Standing and waiting for there approach of nado, Standing is the best mind game


* Things that can beat it , (good luck against a good MK, better off to play D) *



Pivot Grab
Dsmash
Down B
Fsmash (lul)

(in order of usefulness / probability of working)


edit - Id also like for us to work around are main weakness against this character,
Not being able to grab that quickly as a punish , as there are ways to punish just not grabbing, so taking advice from other plays when they grab punish, we have to work differently

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Fsmash?
Epic.
I'll aim for the back hit box

 

[Deathfox30]

You can crawl under an aerial tornado too. And I think Plasma Whip hits him out of it during the first few frames.

 

[Nefarious B]

The hardest thing to deal with in this MU IMO is when MKs mixup ftilt 1>dtilts with grabs. From what I can tell Nick tries to avoid that situation entirely by forcing MK into his shield with dsmash and side b

 

[Dakpo]

The hardest thing to deal with in this MU IMO is when MKs mixup ftilt 1>dtilts with grabs. From what I can tell Nick tries to avoid that situation entirely by forcing MK into his shield with dsmash and side b

I hate that too. His Ftilt can out reach down smash if they space it right. If you get lucky and dont trip from down tilt, then you can down dodge the grab. I have t to see nick play any mk besides seibrik. And i have to say seibrik lets NR get away with lots of trash that he shouldnt lol. so i really want to see some matches from another good MK. or even better, i just want to see more video of nick (i dont know if the m2k video was very helpful). I feel i learn something every time i watch a new video.

 

[solecalibur]

Any video vs M2k isnt helpful, he plays the character so different, the way I see ally play with his makes me just as afraid. Why the character is dumb as you can play him so differently lol

Just getting a feel of certain play styles as I feel there are at least 10+ different ways to play MK that ppl play like and you need to know the MU xD

 

[Dakpo]

What do you guys think Counter picks and Bans should be?

 

[solecalibur]

Bans seem more preference but I love castle seige/delfino/halberd/battlefield

and I ban RC/(most ppl would ban brinstar but Im fine on that stage)/somestage you just dont like since mk does well on all of them about

 

[Dakpo]

I like BF too. Do you think Picto would be ok since its really hard to get gimped. That seems to be the main reason i lose to good MKs

 

[solecalibur]

FD works also , I forgot to mention but picto works if you have trouble killing as well, might try out picto as a cp next time

and how do you get gimped? i barely get gimped in general unless its my own fault

 

[Dakpo]

I get gimped playing players like Dojo. This weekend i should be putting up a bunch of vids, including a set vs him. It should be interesting lol

 

[solecalibur]

even though i lose rly hard to top lvl i never seem to get gimp =x show me the vids and c if we can help, we have a ton of options to recover.

 

[Dakpo]

Uhg Pinnacle studios is ****** me sideways...i cant upload any of the vids from WHOBO

 

[solecalibur]

what problems are with the files?

 

[Dakpo]

well i try to start pinnacle studios 14 and i get to the front screen of it where you can edit the videos. Then i try going to the record screen and it always crashes and says Pinnacle studios has stopped working for an unkown reason

 

[solecalibur]

I have 12, but when i get that error it means the settings are not correct, unless you have something that records your computer screen (and post it somewhere), Im not sure how i can help with the problem, unlesssss


you have them on an Sd card and you can zip the files and send em to me

 

[Dakpo]

Ima try downloading Pinnacle 12 and if that doesnt work, i will just put this files in a zip folder for you

 

[solecalibur]

sounds good, I shall record

.....Ill start uploading videos sunday, I'm 4 hours behind as it is but tell me which vids u need

 

[Dakpo]

OK me vs DOJO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnSNtTmze94

 

[BioDG]

Yeah, agreed about the d-tilt thing.

So what's the best strategy vs. the glide attack? MKs I play usually try to bait the attack. I assume fair is the best thing or is there something I'm missing?

 

[Dakpo]

Yeah, agreed about the d-tilt thing.

So what's the best strategy vs. the glide attack? MKs I play usually try to bait the attack. I assume fair is the best thing or is there something I'm missing?

Fair is a good option that usually throws them off; however, shielding the glide attack and than down dodging what ever they cancel into is another way to punish it. You can also run under it and Up Smash.

I was also given some nice advice on this match up. When even we can get the grab release to regrab we should be doing it. It may suck when we mess up, but it may fluster/frustrate the other player, slow momentum, get a few extra damage, refresh moves, and lead to killing up air.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I find PSing and Jabbing works well.
Bad choice?

 

[Dakpo]

i find PSing really hard since there is such a huge time frame of when they can use the glide attack

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

i find PSing really hard since there is such a huge time frame of when they can use the glide attack

REally? I find it pretty easily readable.
Maybe the meta's i play against are scrub.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Usmash beats glide attack pretty solidly, as does utilt. Utilt needs to be used as an anti air more often.

Grab releases are indeed quite valuable in the metaknight matchup, it leads to an uair, fair, regrab and I must still test but I have no wii, walking regrab and walk fsmash.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Does anyone have vids of the grab release?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

THE grab release?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Well.
However you would better phrase that -.-

The grab releases?
The one on MK.

Maybe grab release -> ___

What do you want from me lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The grab releases.

Right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3QPcEPqJ7o
Grab release > uair is the only one we have.

Id love to record all our grab releases on the whole cast but there are 2 problems
1. I have no wii
2. I have no recording device

Ohwell.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Oh okay.
Thanks :D

I have problems with the MK matchup...
As i'm sure most people do. Since it's MK.

I'm still having Diddy problems though :-\

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I dont really mind MK really.

I do have massive problems with Diddy, its like my worst MU with ZSS, worse than Falco imo, lol.