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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

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DMG

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DMG#931
mhhhh makes sense but this is still very even, looking at the chart it appears more that "55:45" belongs in the even categorie most of the time.
Yeah it depends on what specifically you would label something as.

For example, a lot of Wario's +1 matchups would be traditionally known as 55:45. Usually just CP advantage or something very small pushing it towards him. His 0 matchups IMO are dead even. G^W vs him for example at a high level I don't think either character has an edge. Falco is arguably dead even as well (it doesn't occur much anymore tbh. A lot of Falco players since the beginning of Brawl have quit, and the ones that used to be in Wario populated areas like Cali now have the Wario's retiring or quitting.) For all we know, that matchup could be 6:4 either character's favor, but it's incredibly uncommon in tournament.


If you prefer having 0 encompass matchups like 55:45, then yeah there would probably be a tad more 0's out there. If you represent +/- 1 as small edge (in my book for example, anything from 55:45 to 6:4), you'd have a few more 1's.
 

DMG

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Why are we still trying to apply the old numbers to the new numbers?
Because if you're not being a doodoo head about it, you can still accurately rate matchups on a 50:50 to 100:0 scale.
 

Yikarur

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and it's easier to understand for people that doesn't internalize the new numbers yet.
 

Seagull Joe

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Would someone (Espy, SL, any wolf players) be able to give info on the MU between Sonic and Wolf?
Allow me.

Sonic has a tough time killing Wolf because of shine and laser. The entire game Sonic has to find ways to get into Wolf's zoning and then mess him up in the air. He can't follow up a billion times though because of shine, but he can still bait shine. Wolf usually kills Sonic with Fair and I think the matchup is +1 Wolf's favor.

From your experience with MegaRobMan, I can imagine he probably does what I stated. Sonic needs to outplay Wolf and mindgame the hell out of the Wolf player if he wants to win or get a kill. If Wolf shields always, stays grounded, and camps then it's almost impossible for Sonic to kill till really high percents.
 

C.J.

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If this is the case then I'm left wondering why DK vs DDD is still -4 when top DDD players still lose to DK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY8Lw7xw4TI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tE6kgbYtxY
because there's an infinite, you big dummy

-4 is when the infinite is allowed. when the infinite is banned, it's probably only -2
^^ This

You know every grab that Vex/atomsk got on Cable/Will? Assuming the infinite was legal, each was a stock. Will got grabbed more than 3 times before atomsk died once (game w/ a legal infinite) and Cable got grabbed twice on Vex's 1st stock, and a third time on Vex's second stock. Plus, after the first grab (stock) DDD can just sit there and camp DK forever and a half. Will and Cable are obviously still amazing players for winning the MU even w/ no infinite because it's still difficult, but, they're not playing w/ the infinite.
 

PKNintendo

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Okay seriously what the **** happened to Zelda. Why is she so bad? Did you guys find a game breaking exploit? I mean last time I was here she was low tier but christ she's bottom AND has horrible matchups. Honestly I think the merger between Shiek/Zelda is just her saving face.
repost because I want to know. :urg:
 

Count

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BBR diddy mains aren't 'putting down diddy'

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the other panels were pretty set in their ways regarding those characters? comments like that are so annoying.
 

Judo777

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Actually I definitely think marth beats snake if thats what you guys are saying. Marth can juggle snake LITERALLy all day. Sheik does a pretty good job at juggling snake DESPITE the fact that alot of her moves get out prioritized by snakes AND that she is slow in the air. Marth has neither of those 2 cons.

And actually i think the main reason you don't see more marths winning is for a similar reason to sheiks and peaches not winning more depsite their not too bad spread against top tier. Sheik, Peach and Marth are characters that (from what I hear although I can vouche for sheik) are very hard characters play due to the precision required to use them. As a result it is pretty tough to go an entire tournament playing so precisely and "perfectly." For real Sheik is VERY hard to play for long periods of time, mental fatiggue is DEFINITELY a factor. I think Marth suffer the same way.
 

Nefarious B

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If Marth is hard to be consistent with who isn't lol. Aside from MK and Falco, im not really seeing any high tier characters that seem easy to do consistently well with (obviously generalization). Inb4 DDD, his matchup spread is not close to good enough to say that about him
 

fkacyan

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Actually I definitely think marth beats snake if thats what you guys are saying. Marth can juggle snake LITERALLy all day. Sheik does a pretty good job at juggling snake DESPITE the fact that alot of her moves get out prioritized by snakes AND that she is slow in the air. Marth has neither of those 2 cons.

And actually i think the main reason you don't see more marths winning is for a similar reason to sheiks and peaches not winning more depsite their not too bad spread against top tier. Sheik, Peach and Marth are characters that (from what I hear although I can vouche for sheik) are very hard characters play due to the precision required to use them. As a result it is pretty tough to go an entire tournament playing so precisely and "perfectly." For real Sheik is VERY hard to play for long periods of time, mental fatiggue is DEFINITELY a factor. I think Marth suffer the same way.
Pretty much every character can juggle Snake well. The issue isn't the juggling so much as getting him into the air to begin with.
 

Judo777

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If Marth is hard to be consistent with who isn't lol. Aside from MK and Falco, im not really seeing any high tier characters that seem easy to do consistently well with (obviously generalization). Inb4 DDD, his matchup spread is not close to good enough to say that about him
Im just saying what I have heard. Its true for sheik lol
 

Browny

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Actually I definitely think marth beats snake if thats what you guys are saying. Marth can juggle snake LITERALLy all day. Sheik does a pretty good job at juggling snake DESPITE the fact that alot of her moves get out prioritized by snakes AND that she is slow in the air. Marth has neither of those 2 cons.

And actually i think the main reason you don't see more marths winning is for a similar reason to sheiks and peaches not winning more depsite their not too bad spread against top tier. Sheik, Peach and Marth are characters that (from what I hear although I can vouche for sheik) are very hard characters play due to the precision required to use them. As a result it is pretty tough to go an entire tournament playing so precisely and "perfectly." For real Sheik is VERY hard to play for long periods of time, mental fatiggue is DEFINITELY a factor. I think Marth suffer the same way.
Oh ffs this argument about precision and consistency is TERRIBLE.

This just in; Lucario is extremely hard to do well with because you have to have great DI and not get gimped in every match. Sonic is extremely hard to do well with because you have to land the KO moves the very few opportunities they arise or the enemy lives to 200 every stock. Fox is extremely hard to do well with because you have to play so fast and evasive, its very tiring for long periods of time.

Repeat for EVERY single character.

Heres that matters; margin for error. The best characters have the highest margin for error while the worst, have the lowest. Thats pretty much undeniable. Characters with a low margin for error cant mess up often and have to outplay their opponents character with a larger margin for error by a considerable amount if they want to win. Whether its a repeated, small margin like messing up sheiks ftilt lock or single, large one like landing luigis fsmash, it doesnt matter. Its all cumulative and there are dozens, if not HUNDREDS of aspects of a character which all are accounted for in this margin.

Is it no surprise that the tier list of characters is effectively a list of characters in order or cumulative higest margin for error? Or basically, this margin IS how good a character is.

So when characters have overall low margins, you can call this precision or difficulty to play but really, thats just another way of describing how small their margins are. Now we factor in the human element where no player is perfect and we ALL make mistakes and the non-optimal choice probably... every 3 seconds in a match. Our characters being punished because of our inability to maximise their intrinsic margin for error is no more under our control than getting all of our attacks shield grabbed as Luigi by a DDD. If your character requires consistent high precision in order to maximise your margin, that means your character is BAD. If you apply the same level of skill in maximising any combination of the margins to ANY character that is better than them, that characters overall margin will increase further, and suddenly they are more capable of placing higher.

The argument about precision and consitency as to why characters dont place is terrible because it applies to every single character. It just affects them all in different ways. whether it is landing a 0-50 combo, bucket braking perfectly, playing evasive for 8 minutes, not getting gimped, hitting the high power KO move every stock it doesnt matter it all adds up, and it all adds up to how good a character is. It is grossly unfair to suggest that marth is hard to play because it is difficult to land his tippers at every opportunity, while conveniently ignoring facts like Lucario is hard to play, because you need perfect DI and avoiding getting gimped etc for every single character as I explained above. Precision on attacks is ONE TINY I NEED A MICROSCOPE TO SEE IT aspect of how hard a character is to play.
 

da K.I.D.

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Is it no surprise that the tier list of characters is effectively a list of characters in order or cumulative higest margin for error? Or basically, this margin IS how good a character is.


Wrong.

Falco.
Falco's margin for error is normally very small since the chance of him getting put off stage and gimped at as low as 50 is always there. Its compounded by the fact that falco only has, at most, 4 options to recover at any given time. and the opponent can always cover 1-3 of them.

DDD
DDD's margin for error is like the grand canyon. He can take a punish for a whiffed shield grab like 5 times, just waiting for the other guy to misspace one thing and than its a CG across stage into a gimping oppurtunity. Hes the fattest character in the game (vertically) and has an amazing (for covering distance) recovery. You can out play ddd for an entire stock and then get hit with a CG into a hard read dash attack and die first.

yet falco is far and away the better character.
 

Browny

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wow im mad swf went down as i wrote a big post

ffs ill reply later, making scrambled eggs. in short, no youre missing like 99% of the picture.

---

Anyway, yes falcos recovery is limited and his margin for error is small. This will have an effect every match, most likely costing him a stock or two and taking considerable damage. Now lets consider some other aspects of his gameplay... Both characters are on the ground, shielding. What is his margin for error in going for a jab? Its almost as big as you can possibly get. Almost no matter what the enemy does, his jab WILL win and if it doesnt (ie, they roll away) it doesnt matter because now it has put them in the neutral position. Falco now has lasers and side B. Both of these have enourmous margins, lasers are basically 0 risk and side b has low risk too. All of these options have tiny effects (<10 damage in most cases) yet how often will they hit? How often is falco going to be in a neutral situation where his lasers have an infinite margin for error and when that decreases, his sideb makes up for it?

Remember its ALL CUMULATIVE. You have to consider how often the character will find themselves in a situation where they maximise this margin. For falco, thats pretty much the majority of the game. Then you consider the effect of this. Look at his chaingrab. that has almost no risk once it has begin, thus an enormous margin AND it has a massive effect. However he will only find himself in this situation a few times every match. But most importantly, is how his margins compare to the OTHER CHARACTER. It doesnt really matter what falcos margins are; only how his are relative to the one he is against. How many times in a match does the enemy have a low-risk approach to beat lasers, sideb and jab? Dont only consider how precise they have to be, consider how many times they have to do this. Every time falco hits you with these attacks, your margin is cut down. You cant continue to run this risk or falco just builds up a bigger lead, and his margin is made larger (in the form of %).

So think, if every time falco hits you with jab/sideb/lasers which have a massive margin for error, your margin decreases (in the sense you are going to need to pull off a high risk, low % gimp to bring the match back), who is the better character? And this was only considering 3 attacks. I didnt even consider things like rising bair. Overall, his margin is EXTREMELY high because he has so many low risk options at any given time which cut down the enemies margins to almost 0. it doesnt matter if his margin is small in the fact of someone who can gimp him easily like mario or something, for 99% of the match he has cut marios margin down to 0 when he has absolutely no answer to jab or careful camping. Its not the total which matters, its the DIFFERENCE and falcos ability to make everyones margin tiny or 0, is what makes him amazing.

Now im not gonna go into detail like i did with falco, but DDD is no different. Yes he has those enormous margins with his weight, CG, priority and range but he does have aspects which cut his margin down, mostly mobility-wise. however DDD doesnt have a multitude of auto-shutdown options like falco does. Almost all characters can camp him. Whether its with projectiles or simply staying just out of his range and playing reactionary, if they are patient, they can punish him often. How about mk approaching DDD who is near the ledge. DDD does have options to MK's like 20 different approaches, but he cant mess one up or he WILL get punished. it doesnt end there though. Now DDD is out of the neutral position and getting pressured. He has to make the right decision every time because his reset options are terrible. He cant get away from pressure well at all. This is an ongoing thing. For every time he gets pressured, his margins decrease. It can only take 1 single dash attack from MK to start it all, but suddenly DDD's chaingrab, bair, ftilt, sideb etc are all taken out of the picture.

Whilst he can escape it with a well timed, exact move, the risk is still there. if he messes that one attack up, he could find himself shuttle looped offstage and now his margins are REALLY small. His poor escape mechanisms and low mobility are just too much. So unlike falco, he has a naturally extremely high margin for error in that he can get hit 30 times and not die however he doesnt cut down the enemies anywhere near as well. The enemy has a considerable risk as always of copping a fair to the face or messing up and getting CG'd however vs MK in my example, DDD is going to be faced with a low margin of error situation for the majority of the game. He cant avoid taking lots of damage at a time and this WILL happen because of how he is. This isnt a player skill to overcome, it is his margin for error.

ugh idk if that made much sense. DDD is a tough case but the main point is, all that matters is how large the margin is between the two characters OVERALL. if your character requires repeated low margin tactics in order to win, the character is bad. You can make up for this by decreasing the enemies margins as much as possible even if the enemy has a naturally ENORMOUS margin. See Diddy vs DDD as the prime example to end them all.
 

Judo777

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Oh ffs this argument about precision and consistency is TERRIBLE.

This just in; Lucario is extremely hard to do well with because you have to have great DI and not get gimped in every match. Sonic is extremely hard to do well with because you have to land the KO moves the very few opportunities they arise or the enemy lives to 200 every stock. Fox is extremely hard to do well with because you have to play so fast and evasive, its very tiring for long periods of time.

Repeat for EVERY single character.

Heres that matters; margin for error. The best characters have the highest margin for error while the worst, have the lowest. Thats pretty much undeniable. Characters with a low margin for error cant mess up often and have to outplay their opponents character with a larger margin for error by a considerable amount if they want to win. Whether its a repeated, small margin like messing up sheiks ftilt lock or single, large one like landing luigis fsmash, it doesnt matter. Its all cumulative and there are dozens, if not HUNDREDS of aspects of a character which all are accounted for in this margin.

Is it no surprise that the tier list of characters is effectively a list of characters in order or cumulative higest margin for error? Or basically, this margin IS how good a character is.

So when characters have overall low margins, you can call this precision or difficulty to play but really, thats just another way of describing how small their margins are. Now we factor in the human element where no player is perfect and we ALL make mistakes and the non-optimal choice probably... every 3 seconds in a match. Our characters being punished because of our inability to maximise their intrinsic margin for error is no more under our control than getting all of our attacks shield grabbed as Luigi by a DDD. If your character requires consistent high precision in order to maximise your margin, that means your character is BAD. If you apply the same level of skill in maximising any combination of the margins to ANY character that is better than them, that characters overall margin will increase further, and suddenly they are more capable of placing higher.

The argument about precision and consitency as to why characters dont place is terrible because it applies to every single character. It just affects them all in different ways. whether it is landing a 0-50 combo, bucket braking perfectly, playing evasive for 8 minutes, not getting gimped, hitting the high power KO move every stock it doesnt matter it all adds up, and it all adds up to how good a character is. It is grossly unfair to suggest that marth is hard to play because it is difficult to land his tippers at every opportunity, while conveniently ignoring facts like Lucario is hard to play, because you need perfect DI and avoiding getting gimped etc for every single character as I explained above. Precision on attacks is ONE TINY I NEED A MICROSCOPE TO SEE IT aspect of how hard a character is to play.
BS! Some characters are just simply easier to play than other characters. Some characters don't require to have enormous amounts of tech skill in order to play them proficiently, nor do they require you to do it near as frequently as other character. Some characters don't get hurt NEAR as bad for screwing up and taking hits as other characters.

Also just because your character requires a ton of precision to maximize your margin of error doesn't mean its BAD. Lets pretend for a second that a game exists that is very simple. Everyone can use their characters near optimally without much difficulty to to the fact that the game is just so freaking simple. If I play a character that actually has to work and be a little more precise than the rest of the cast (while still remaining at optimal play simply because its not that difficult because everyone else is also so easy) but as a result of my extra work for precision I can completely shutdown every other character in the game does that mean my character is BAD?
 

Doc King

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I'm just wondering something, but wouldn't Dedede vs Falco be pretty even because Falco can do major stuff to Dedede like chain throwing, lazer camping, and meteor and combo him pretty good. But I actually think that Dedede can do some major stuff to Falco like if you send Falco in the air and off the stage, you can pretty much keep hitting Falco while he tries to recover and him having a poor recovery makes dedede have an advantage towards him so he can mindgame him and gimp him easily. Dedede can also tech chase Falco, even though its kindof risky cause of Falco's chain throws and dedede can combo him with his nair>up tilt and stuff. Dedede can also dodge Falco's lazers kindof easily with shielding.
 

Steam

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If Falco tech rolls Dthrow away he's safe unless he runs out of stage iirc.

and D3 can't just keep lol bairing falco's recovery off, and that's all he really can do since his mobility is total balls.

also Falco camps D3 all day long
 

Browny

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Also just because your character requires a ton of precision to maximize your margin of error doesn't mean its BAD. Lets pretend for a second that a game exists that is very simple. Everyone can use their characters near optimally without much difficulty to to the fact that the game is just so freaking simple. If I play a character that actually has to work and be a little more precise than the rest of the cast (while still remaining at optimal play simply because its not that difficult because everyone else is also so easy) but as a result of my extra work for precision I can completely shutdown every other character in the game does that mean my character is BAD?
Once again you are ignoring the ability for THE OTHER CHARACTER, you know, the one who just sent you to losers bracket, to maximise their margins.

Lets say you work on your precision with sheik so much so they you rarely miss a DACUS and maximise the damage done from an ftilt lock. I work on my evasive skills with Lucario such that I avoid getting gimped and carefully air/platform camp. Now suddenly Lucario is living to 180% every stock and his margins are tiny because your risk in approaching him is now doubled.

You REALLY cant simply ignore the fact that there are countless aspects towards margins for error that ANY character can become proficient at, all of which can directly counter yours. If, when your character works harder, you have better matchups, you MUST directly consider when the other player has worked harder to any other aspect of their game. How about a Snake who has studied dthrow reactions extensively to punish everything you do, a Sonic who times you out from the first hit, an olimar who camps perfectly or a peach who can do that crazy uairx9 combo or whatever it is.

People need to get the idea out of their head that single characters have one single aspect which when mastered, makes them better because there are probably HUNDREDS of aspects towards playing a character. it could well possibly take one player making a tiny bit of effort across 20 aspects to completely overpower your relative a lot of effort in 1 single aspect.
 

Doc King

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Dedede can bair Falco all of the time, but he can do other special things like the wall of pain, dair comboing, etc. Basically Dedede can beat Falco if he keeps Falco in aireal game situations and leave him so he can't lazer camp or chain throw Dedede.
 

da K.I.D.

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i like how browny changes the point of the conversation from in general character attributes to specific matchups at his personal convinience.
 

Tagxy

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Trying to quantify how much success a difficult character might have given theory crafted "potential" is impossible to do, especially when there has been absolutely no evidence or evidence works against them. It becomes even more questionable when many other hard to use characters (pika, fox, diddy) have demonstrated at least once or twice that the possibility of their uncommon potential exists, meaning that if its been three years and several characters have at least hinted at their potential why have we not seen it from these other characters? It just seems dumb that while some players have worked hard demonstrating their characters potential, characters like marth are basing their MU's based on theory that has almost no evidence while theyve had plenty of time to do so.

Theory crafting can be fine, but without evidence at some point you have to face reality and question whether that potential actually exists.
 

Judo777

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Once again you are ignoring the ability for THE OTHER CHARACTER, you know, the one who just sent you to losers bracket, to maximise their margins.

Lets say you work on your precision with sheik so much so they you rarely miss a DACUS and maximise the damage done from an ftilt lock. I work on my evasive skills with Lucario such that I avoid getting gimped and carefully air/platform camp. Now suddenly Lucario is living to 180% every stock and his margins are tiny because your risk in approaching him is now doubled.

You REALLY cant simply ignore the fact that there are countless aspects towards margins for error that ANY character can become proficient at, all of which can directly counter yours. If, when your character works harder, you have better matchups, you MUST directly consider when the other player has worked harder to any other aspect of their game. How about a Snake who has studied dthrow reactions extensively to punish everything you do, a Sonic who times you out from the first hit, an olimar who camps perfectly or a peach who can do that crazy uairx9 combo or whatever it is.

People need to get the idea out of their head that single characters have one single aspect which when mastered, makes them better because there are probably HUNDREDS of aspects towards playing a character. it could well possibly take one player making a tiny bit of effort across 20 aspects to completely overpower your relative a lot of effort in 1 single aspect.
Your now arguing something that is not related to my point. My point is this if sheik plays Snake (one of her better MU's btw in the high tier) and they are at neutral reset. They are at that range where it is really kind of a guessing game as to who will win the neutral reset and build momentum. When sheik loses that reset she loses a MINIMUM of 1/5 her life. Now when sheik wins she might get about 20% right off the bat about 1/9 snakes total health. If she reads him correctly she might get to tack on an additional 20% 1/9 more. However this only works at low percents. Above 60% sheik will probably only be getting punishes for about 12% each time.

So everytime i mess up i take 1/5 my health (sheik dies at about 85% to utilt fresh. Meanwhile he will at first lose maybe 2/9 of his stock. Then only about 1/12 his stock each other time. So snake has this MU pretty freaking simple as far as punishes go. However sheik easily has the potential off of one punish to juggle snake for about 60% every single time. It just requires very precise spacing and reads as well as reaction time. However that means that Sheik has to work MUCH harder than snake in the MU. However this is completely doable (infact i do it regularly). It doesn't necessarily mean the MU is bad (its not its only slightly in his favor) but it is alot of work for sheik. I have been to tournaments where I had to play 3 or 4 snakes in a row. I was playing absolutely awful at the end of the last game simply because Snake is very mentally exhausting for sheik to fight. You have to get him in the air the KEEP him in the air for at least 60% each time in order to even out the weight difference. It is completely doable and doesn't require much guessing its just hard.

Just because a character has an easier time in the MU doesn't actually make it better for them.
 

Neon!

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personally i do think marth is better than those guys, but like i said he is far harder to use so people say screw it imo. unless your name is mikehaze, duh zex, mr. r, neon. zex always takes first in norcal, mikehaze gives m2k a run for his money and has come out on top several times even tho the glaring disadvantage character wise.
i hope your talking about Neo beacuse I'm definitly not that good with marth.
 

etecoon

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mike took a set off M2K? when did this happen? not saying I doubt it I just never heard that
 

da K.I.D.

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a lot of people have beaten m2k over the years. but i dont recall mikehaze being one of them, but it might have happened a long time ago. as far as tournament sets go, if it ever did happen it was a while back.

I remember he beat ally in like 2 or 3 tourneys in a row, but i dont know about m2k.
 

C.J.

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Mike's never beaten M2K in a set as far as I know (not a tourny set at least) but he's taken him to game 5 (almost?) everytime they've played.
 

2-DJeff

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For IC
peach 0
diddy kong 0
pikachu +1 or even 2+ (i have esam in my region and even though he beats me the MU is still way in our favor at least 55-45)
Marth +1
ZSS 0 ( I also play nick riddle and being the fact that i dont know the mu and he dose he dosnt beat me that bad ushally 1 stock he 2 stocked me once)
 

Matador

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Well, he obviously doesn't literally mean literally when he says the word literally...
:awesome::awesome::awesome::awesome:!!!!!!!
 

Conviction

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you gotta liter ally man
Look at your comment. Back to mine. Back to yours NOW BACK TO MINE.Sadly,it isn't mine. But if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate crap it could LOOK like mine. Look down,back up, where are you?You're scrolling through the comments, finding the ones that your comment could look like.Back at mine,what is it?It's a highly effective counter-troll. Look again,MY COMMENT IS NOW DIAMONDS.Anything is possible when you think before you comment.I'm on a computer.

:awesome:
 
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