Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Nidtendofreak]

It's not more logical if it leaves MK with three neutral MUs. >_>

 

[Hylian]

It's not more logical if it leaves MK with three neutral MUs. >_>

You are biasedly nitpicking because you disagree with an opinion. IMO mk is even with snake and ics but you don't see me forcing my opinion down peoples throats by trying to make them feel stupid.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not more logical if it leaves MK with three neutral MUs. >_>

The problem isn't with the number system, though--It's with people thinking that Meta Knight isn't as good as he is. I think it would've happened, regardless of the system in place.

IMO mk is even with snake and ics--

Well, that'd make you wrong. <3

There are pretty large problems for both of those characters.

 

[vato_break]

In theory he's even with those characters but, in practicality he probably wins both solidly.

 

[Alphicans]

Ummm is -3 like 20-80???

At least that's what I understood from the chart.

-1 = 40-60
-2 = 30-70

A -4 would be like a 10-90 MU.

The numbers cover a range of difficulty, it's not supposed to be specific.

0 - 50-50
+1/-1 - 55-45
+2/-2 - 60-40
+3/-3 - 65-35 - 70-30
+4/-4 - 75-35+
I think

Read above.

Stop associating ratios with the numbers people. This is not quantitative, it's qualitative.

Lol hylian... MK beats snake pretty badly. -1 doesn't give it justice imo. IC's... not sure really.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm still wondering why people are still trying to keep ratios alive.

0 - No advantage to either side
1 - Small Advantage
2 - Medium Advantage
3 - Heavy Advantage
4 - Unwinnable

No ratios involved. It's that simple.

 

[Hylian]

Lol hylian... MK beats snake pretty badly. -1 doesn't give it justice imo. IC's... not sure really.

Oh wow I'm convinced....it's called an opinion. Think what you want, but laughing at other people for having a different opinion than you is extremely elitist. Especially when it's not that unreasonable.

 

[Alphicans]

I am not meaning to sound elitist. Sorry it was just like an initial reaction type thing. It just seems outdated to me to consider snake vs MK even especially when the best snake is dropping him due to him getting *****. :/

 

[Judo777]

No i like Zeldas MU's. I agree with most of them. Its funny because I always said Wolf is one of Zeldas worst MU's and it totally is. Also Zelda beats ganon pretty soundly. Zelda is literally Ganondorf with better frame data.

And Olimar Zelda is pretty freaking terrible. Worse than GW IMO.

 

[Tagxy]

It's annoying how many people who claim MK has no even MU's, is broken, or undervalue how bad a certain character is beaten will simply insult the opinion rather then try to make an argument. Most times it appears it's regarding or includes MUs they have no experience or authority to speak from, which is common when such a broad claim is made.

In fact making such broad claims about anything requires a ton of experience and proof that few, if any, single persons hardly ever has. So it surprises me how frequently people just toss out such comments.

 

[PKNintendo]

Okay seriously what the **** happened to Zelda. Why is she so bad? Did you guys find a game breaking exploit? I mean last time I was here she was low tier but christ she's bottom AND has horrible matchups. Honestly I think the merger between Shiek/Zelda is just her saving face.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm still wondering why people are still trying to keep ratios alive.

0 - No advantage to either side
1 - Small Advantage
2 - Medium Advantage
3 - Heavy Advantage
4 - Unwinnable

No ratios involved. It's that simple.

Can we get this put in the OP or somehow make it at the top of the every page in the thread, like a tournament listing?

 

[DeLux]

It IS in the OP.

 

[Browny]

Hmmmm

I wonder if there is any ambiguity if I was to say, guess which character(s) artificially made their matchup ratios much higher than in reality, in order to give the impression their character is better than it actually is. Is it just me, or is it painfully obvious which one(s) gave matchup spreads to accurate represent their character vs those who want a boost on the next tier list?

 

[Steam]

It's quite obvious to me too... lol

 

[Judo777]

Hmmmm

I wonder if there is any ambiguity if I was to say, guess which character(s) artificially made their matchup ratios much higher than in reality, in order to give the impression their character is better than it actually is. Is it just me, or is it painfully obvious which one(s) gave matchup spreads to accurate represent their character vs those who want a boost on the next tier list?

While I do actually agree alot with what ur saying lol, to be fair some of the MU's may truly just be that we don't honestly know how they pan out. I DO however get the same feeling you do.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

why don't you guys just say which characters you think it is? because i am curious due to the fact that i only know pit, marth, DK, and weegees match ups pretty well due to pit/marth being my mains and DK/weegee being my best friend's mains. (btw weegee does not beat diddy. whoever posted that was wrong. it is 0 because of counter picks but if it is just neutrals it is -1 for weegee. or so we think any ways)

 

[Steam]

I dunno, naners are pretty bad against luigi...

 

[Spelt]

marth, pikachu and pit immediately stick out to me as the most questionably high MUs.

surely if marth's MUs were THAT good we would see him do something notable more than like, once every few months.

 

[Tesh]

0 - 50-50
+1/-1 - 55-45
+2/-2 - 60-40
+3/-3 - 65-35 - 70-30
+4/-4 - 75-35+
I think

This is exactly why the ratio system does not work.

 

[da K.I.D.]

herp a derp, leon/mr r in europe derp werp.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

marth, pikachu and pit immediately stick out to me as the most questionably high MUs.

surely if marth's MUs were THAT good we would see him do something notable more than like, once every few months.

no because marth loses to mk, and over 50% of smash uses mk. thus over 50% of tournies that mk does not win will not be 50% marth, it will 50% all the other characters and marth who win that less than 50% of tournies. also besides snake not being at 0 and g&w not being -2, wat is wrong with pit's mus at all? and wat is wrong with pikas? just because these characters are not as tourney common or easy to use (cept pika vs spacie lol) why would that mean they should have worse mus?

i am actually asking this as seriously wat do you guys think is wrong with these characters placement. hell i think pit should actually be 2 spots higher on the mu list when you compare his overall +/- match ups as he has 1 more positive than zss and tl and just as many evens. but seriously why should they go down besides obscurity?

(i mean it's not just cause im a pit/marth main that im saying this. i just don't get how their match ups are super boosted in your guys opinion as i may just be out of the loop. but then again im pretty sure i keep up with pit/marth's results in tourney and know a lot about pit's match ups in general. honestly he does go about even with almost every1)

 

[Steam]

no because marth loses to mk, and over 50% of smash uses mk. thus over 50% of tournies that mk does not win will not be 50% marth, it will 50% all the other characters and marth who win that less than 50% of tournies. also besides snake not being at 0 and g&w not being -2, wat is wrong with pit's mus at all? and wat is wrong with pikas? just because these characters are not as tourney common or easy to use (cept pika vs spacie lol) why would that mean they should have worse mus?

i am actually asking this as seriously wat do you guys think is wrong with these characters placement. hell i think pit should actually be 2 spots higher on the mu list when you compare his overall +/- match ups as he has 1 more positive than zss and tl and just as many evens. but seriously why should they go down besides obscurity?

according to the chart this happens to most characters worse than it does to marth. and some of them still outplace Marth....

I think peach is a little questionable too

 

[DeLux]

I think Ice Climbers is high as well because if their matchup chart were correct they really ought to be placing consistently higher than they do.

 

[da K.I.D.]

pikachus and pits matchups dont seem to give off the Grossly over estimated vibe you are saying. i mean, pikachu v mk def isnt even but its relatively close, and most of the other stuff i see is only like one point off and as a whole they both seem generally correct. even though I dont believe pit goes even with diddy.

@ (lux)
or maybe you need to step it up and stop dropping grabs on everyone not named KIDGoggles...

 

[DeLux]

Well that's the things, the IC matchup chart is based on the notion that IC's won't drop grabs. But statistically and from a game mechanic standpoint, it's almost a relative certainty that there will be one dropped grabbed in the course of a match.


Although I don't want to get into that argument again because we already did that like 40 pages ago lol

 

[Alphicans]

^ Not sure if that's true. I seem to remember some talk in IC's boards about dropping grabs vs certain characters. This is not my territory to speak on, so I'll let an IC panel member answer that.

 

[Steam]

if you're assuming that ICs will never drop grabs then they +2-+3 most of the roster :/

 

[DeLux]

Trust me, in terms of tech stuff, I'm the authority on the ICs. I'm sure anyone on the panel would agree. I might not be good in tourney results, but in terms of mechanics, I literally know what's known as of now.

From a game mechanic standpoint, you have to deal with windows of opportunity that are 2-3 frames (possibly even 1 on some characters but I didn't make the connection on spacing and things until AFTER I did my frame testing). Obstacles which are as simple as ramps will interfere with CGs. If an IC CGs in place to minimize the risk of obstacles affecting, tripping can occur.

Opponent and outside factors also come into play. They can mash. They can play a character that is perceived as difficult to CG (although in terms of spacing there is a definite tier list of who is harder to CG). They can start beatboxing over even mashing buttons to a weird rhythm that throws off your timing subconsciously. They can tell 'Yo Nana jokes to break your concentration.



Then there's the PRESSURE. If the matchups are dependent on not dropping grabs, you have an internal struggle in dealing with pressure.

Fortunately I've been trying to help ease the psychological strain with the following http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12259921&postcount=1

You should really just do a quick run through of that practice procedure and you'll see what it's like playing ICs in tournament.

 

[Tagxy]

I dont think the IC's numbers seem overall inflated. They may have a high average, but if you look at the chart you see that they generally lose or go even with the upper portion of the cast, then beat/wreck the lower portion of the cast giving them a higher average. That doesnt seem inaccurate.

However I said this earlier about Marth

1. Marth has better MU's then diddy/snake/falco/wario/everyone that isnt MK? Really? Marth for MK tier . It seems like every MU they might have controversy with (Pika, Lucario, DK, Rob, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, ZSS, etc.) fell to their favor. At least it was consistently bad

By looking at marth's MUs youd think hes a better character then diddy, snake, falco.

 

[Spelt]

if leon or mr r came here and placed in a national like whobo than i'd be more inclined to believe that he deserves a higher placing, but even then #2 is pretty irrational...

I never said anything remotely close to "grossly over estimated"
keep that bs to yourself.

 

[da K.I.D.]

so, i decided to really look at the matchup chart, and i came to the conclusion that people still view sonic as a bottom/low tier character. Because it seems like he beat the characters below him on the actual tier list generally more so than the matchup chart shows.

just based on the mobility desparity, zelda, samus, bowser and link should be further in sonics favor.

 

[Trent]

Would someone (Espy, SL, any wolf players) be able to give info on the MU between Sonic and Wolf?

 

[Technodeath]

Seagull could give you a good bit of information I reckon.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

personally i do think marth is better than those guys, but like i said he is far harder to use so people say screw it imo. unless your name is mikehaze, duh zex, mr. r, neon. zex always takes first in norcal, mikehaze gives m2k a run for his money and has come out on top several times even tho the glaring disadvantage character wise

and character wise beats the characters you listed or goes even with them, and only loses to mk and DDD (since when does marth not beat diddy? ive always thought marth was cp on him. is it really diddy's favor?)

also wat about pit and pika? wat was wrong with their mus? all i saw was the one guy who said he doesn't really disagree with pit's mus. oh wait the one guy said he doesn't think pit diddy is even but let me assure you from my experiance it is only 50:50 (if my opinion as a pit main who has played many diddy kongs in his day). i will disagree with any pit who says it's in our favor tho. while i used to think that, that was way back in the day. and also like no1 mentioned pika's matchups really.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy should be higher in average just because -1 vs. Peach and Luigi is just not true.
and I don't think he loses too Wario, it should be about even :/

I don't understand even with Pit, Kirby and Rob too D:

but I already heard BBR Diddy Mains are putting Diddy down all the time

 

[DMG]

-1 for Wario vs Diddy meaning 55:45. Mostly CP advantage tipping it a tad for him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All Diddy has to do vs Luigi and Peach is camp imo

 

[etecoon]

diddy mains are just as bad as MK mains about putting down their own character so people won't recognize their true strength, and they have no threat of a ban to worry about l m a o

 

[Yikarur]

-1 for Wario vs Diddy meaning 55:45. Mostly CP advantage tipping it a tad for him.

mhhhh makes sense but this is still very even, looking at the chart it appears more that "55:45" belongs in the even categorie most of the time.