Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Tesh]

If you Up B out, you risk still getting grabbed and then being released hilariously to your death. DDD's grab is big enough to do that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Phil, is it natural for you to assume people to be stupid?
I don't know why you'd think I made such a shallow analysis of a character [tbh I think most people are a lot more superficial when judging characters; I usually take results from EVERYWHERE in the world into account and I never base my opinions on existing standards] but I'm not like that at all. He loses to most characters above that [-2 vs MK, Snake, Fox and potentially Wario / DDD / Olimar, at least -1 vs ICs and also vs Diddy, Oli, GW. MAYBE Marth] and the only good character he beats is Pikachu and that's also only +1. At the same time I think he's 0 vs like DK / Mario. I really don't see how that adds up to a high or high-mid tier character in people's eyes.

In my vote for the EU tierlist I had him as 20th right below ROB, Sheilda, Toon Link, GW and Sheik and I don't see what's wrong with that. Lucario isn't bad but I just don't see what makes him a better characters than those I put above him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hey, can we talk about Falco vs. ZSS?

Up until recently I considered the MU chart to be wrong, and that it is a -3 MU (Falco's favor of course). Recently though I'm thinking I was wrong. If you watch various Falco/ZSS match-ups, it's hard to figure out why it could be worse than -1. ZSS' biggest weakness in the MU is jab pressure, which is admittedly kind of a big deal. NR has lost to DEHF twice and beaten him once. Other videos of the MU are around, including Salem's sets against Bleachigo and Shadow and Dakpo's set vs. Arty.

It looks like -1 to me, I think Diddy is probably -2 before Falco is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It looks like -1 to me as well, from the videos I've seen and my knowledge of the characters.

 

[Ghostbone]

Diddy DOES NOT beat ZSS harder than Falco.
Nonononononono.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I can't remember the last time a notable ZSS player even approached taking a set from a good Diddy

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Good ZSS players aren't very good with their character imo :/

 

[infiniteV115]

SFP, I don't think you should base your opinion so strongly on results, as there probably aren't that many Falcos in NA that know the MU well.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Results are and should be the anchor for every opinion we have about this game.

Theorycraft is so close to useless in Brawl for reasons that should be obvious to any player who has even dabbled in competition.

 

[Dakpo]

falco and diddy -2

 

[Cassio]

dunno, like looking at salem he beat some falco mains then lost to a falco secondary that knew the MU.

Stretching the limits of -1 itd be fine especially if MUs like lucario v snake are advocated for -1 as well, but it just feels like people are broadening their perspective of -1 moreso than the MUs being better. Id want pika vs oli to be -1 in that case too.

 

[Laem]

Falco demolishing ZSS is based on pure theorycraft anyway.
-1 imo, -2 acceptable.

 

[Alphicans]

There is a case for -1 based on practice, but -2 is still an acceptable conclusion. Theorycraft tends to suggest it's a -2, so -2 is probably the safer number. By no means is -1 inaccurate though.

 

[Steam]

Phil, is it natural for you to assume people to be stupid?
I don't know why you'd think I made such a shallow analysis of a character [tbh I think most people are a lot more superficial when judging characters; I usually take results from EVERYWHERE in the world into account and I never base my opinions on existing standards] but I'm not like that at all. He loses to most characters above that [-2 vs MK, Snake, Fox and potentially Wario / DDD / Olimar, at least -1 vs ICs and also vs Diddy, Oli, GW. MAYBE Marth] and the only good character he beats is Pikachu and that's also only +1. At the same time I think he's 0 vs like DK / Mario. I really don't see how that adds up to a high or high-mid tier character in people's eyes.

In my vote for the EU tierlist I had him as 20th right below ROB, Sheilda, Toon Link, GW and Sheik and I don't see what's wrong with that. Lucario isn't bad but I just don't see what makes him a better characters than those I put above him.

he goes closeish to even with wario GW and marth. GW and Marth could arguably be 0. olimar is a -1, it's not close to being a -2 and not close to being a 0. and luc is even with ICs. IMO he also beats Tink who is a good character now that MK is banned... he also beats mario gtfo.

Lucario is good because he's a character who can succeed solo having no horrible matchups. That and he has 4 -2 matchups... 1 of them is now banned and 2 of them are almost mid tier so they're not so common... but yes, he is not very good on paper. However (in the NTSC Metagame) he sees success at top level. Lucario should probably be 20th in the EU metagame because no one plays him there and he's still meh on paper.

 

[Coney]

I can't remember the last time a notable ZSS player even approached taking a set from a good Diddy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkENJEV1Zpc

 

[_Kadaj_]

Seriously Delta >.>

You can't make claims like that with the apparent weaknesses for you character in the mu just because you actively practice the mu and the people you beat haven't.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Seriously Delta >.>

You can't make claims like that with the apparent weaknesses for you character in the mu just because you actively practice the mu and the people you beat haven't.

Which is why I still stand by my statement... Who actually even studies the Yoshi MU?
That's the thing with low tiers/most mid tier characters. Since they're Lower in the list, they have to read up on anything that's above them if they bother too.
While high tier mains almost never expect to meet them in bracket so you focus more on MU's starting from Peach and up. Anything below her noone bothers with, Maybe people trying to learn the Sonic MU but that's about it...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkENJEV1Zpc

Didn't he get owned game 3 after barely winning this game?

 

[Doc King]

How do you do it on Halberd?

You dash dance forward and back from you're opponent and then you pivot grab.

 

[-LzR-]

Care to explain what the hell is the dashdance about? And doesn't it double your triprate to make it even less useful?

 

[Flayl]

You dash dance forward and back from you are opponent and then you pivot grab.

You didn't answer the question

 

[phi1ny3]

Phil, is it natural for you to assume people to be stupid?
I don't know why you'd think I made such a shallow analysis of a character [tbh I think most people are a lot more superficial when judging characters; I usually take results from EVERYWHERE in the world into account and I never base my opinions on existing standards] but I'm not like that at all. He loses to most characters above that [-2 vs MK, Snake, Fox and potentially Wario / DDD / Olimar, at least -1 vs ICs and also vs Diddy, Oli, GW. MAYBE Marth] and the only good character he beats is Pikachu and that's also only +1. At the same time I think he's 0 vs like DK / Mario. I really don't see how that adds up to a high or high-mid tier character in people's eyes.

In my vote for the EU tierlist I had him as 20th right below ROB, Sheilda, Toon Link, GW and Sheik and I don't see what's wrong with that. Lucario isn't bad but I just don't see what makes him a better characters than those I put above him.

I didn't call you stupid.

I called you crazy

there's a difference (we have an "intellectual conspiracy theorist" in our smash community, which definitely defines things)

I just think that the notions you mention of how bad Lucario is seem to straddle the lines of people like A2Z/Almost Legendary or whatever his name is, and usually derive from this notion that things like frame startup is the only thing that matters in this game. It's all good though, just means they have yet to experience a good one used on them

Yes, exactly, Lucario is definitely not ROB/Kirby caliber, I feel he's closer to Pit/ZSS level (yes, I think Pit is a decent mid-high/high tier), basically a lot of really solid tools lacking an extremity/huge bolstering factor. Mid/mid-low feels like the characters are good with some really smart play, but have weaknesses that debilitate them from going further, they don't feel like those "skill level is the limit" characters, you can tangibly feel their weaknesses almost.

Lucario's MUs seem really mediocre, but considering the results and the fact that they're all pretty doable, I just feel Luc's MU ratios are just more... honest lol.

 

[Steam]

I didn't call you stupid.

I called you crazy

there's a difference (we have an "intellectual conspiracy theorist" in our smash community, which definitely defines things)

I just think that the notions you mention of how bad Lucario is seem to straddle the lines of people like A2Z/Almost Legendary or whatever his name is, and usually derive from this notion that things like frame startup is the only thing that matters in this game. It's all good though, just means they have yet to experience a good one used on them

Yes, exactly, Lucario is definitely not ROB/Kirby caliber, I feel he's closer to Pit/ZSS level (yes, I think Pit is a decent mid-high/high tier), basically a lot of really solid tools lacking an extremity/huge bolstering factor. Mid/mid-low feels like the characters are good with some really smart play, but have weaknesses that debilitate them from going further, they don't feel like those "skill level is the limit" characters, you can tangibly feel their weaknesses almost.

Lucario's MUs seem really mediocre, but considering the results and the fact that they're all pretty doable, I just feel Luc's MU ratios are just more... honest lol.

seems about right... lucarios could probably theorycraft most of their bad mad matchups to even if they really tried lol... though either way everything is very winnable for him.

but of course he hasn't played a good lucario... no one uses him in EU...

 

[Coney]

Didn't he get owned game 3 after barely winning this game?

oh maybe, it was just the only thing that popped into my head, since he took a game off

 

[NickRiddle]

I get ***** by Diddy.
But I'm bad.

I bet Salem'd win.

 

[Laem]

Yoshi is underrated imo.
All you hear is ppl don't know the mu but multiple yoshi's consistently place well, well above what could be expected for a character at his place in the tierlist.
+ When I play vs him i don't feel like he's half as bad as he supposedly is. He has options and stuff and things.

 

[Chuee]

I get ***** by Diddy.
But I'm bad.

I bet Salem'd win.

Salem would win.















































against you in zss dittos

 

[NickRiddle]

Salem would win.















































against you in zss dittos

Oh you're RIGHT!
That's why I'm taking 50 from him at Apex. :3

 

[da K.I.D.]

even i sometimes forget why yoshi is bad. he has good priority but you have to pressure and make him put up a shield.

 

[Shaya]

Theory crafting is everything.
Just your theory crafting isn't high level like myself, orion or The Nick Riddler.
At the very least, theory crafting works once you take into consideration reaction speeds, technicality and how salty you or your arguer are.

 

[Strong Badam]

Assuming both players are of equal or relatively comparable skill, each know the match-up equally well, and are high to top level players, what is the expected outcome of a game between two characters when a match-up ratio us -2? -3? Should a +2 character 1 stock low percent a -2 char, 2 stock medium percent, 2 stock high percent...?
Just trying to get an idea of the relative metrics of this chart here.

 

[Flayl]

Depends on the stage

edit: I should probably add that I look at matchups considering the likelihood of the outcome of a set, not the outcome of a match.

 

[Shaya]

Let's say a -2 is a match up in which would normally be even, but it has an annoying chain grab.

In any one game, the result could look even if one of the players avoided the cg in all 3 stocks.
Another game, could be 1 cg, and it could look absolutely destructive for the -2, or it could still look relatively even.
etc etc etc

Fox v ZSS, which most consider evenish could look like -3 for Fox if the ZSS was capable of pulling off the downsmash one or MORE times in a match.

In other words, equating it to "their percent after the opponent wins" is really hard to quantify for the match up. But in the case of a -4, it is at least considered that you're likely able to 3 stock the opponent.

 

[Strong Badam]

Depends on the stage

edit: I should probably add that I look at matchups considering the likelihood of the outcome of a set, not the outcome of a match.

...o
i mean game 1
stage striking having found the least polarizing stage of the starters for both chars.

& yea that's true shaya, outcomes aren't always consistent (hence sets being best of 3 or 5). but what about match-ups that are -2 but don't have CGs?

 

[Steam]

-2 is like... a distinct advantage in the MU that if players are even will be won by the advantaged character a good majority of the time. However it's not that hard to overcome if the disadvantaged player is better... if players are even I'd usually expect these to end with the adv character at a low% 1 stock.

 

[Shaya]

Lucario v Meta Knight.

A lot of the time the best players in the mu will go to the last stock, very often.
But most of the time you're viewing Lucario "coming back", and very rarely in an advantageous position in terms of percent. Matches in which lucario wins often comes down to the sheer power of aura + a mistake from MK or a HARD READ from Lucario.

In other words, it looks to consistently be an upwards struggle in the match up, and Lucario players are relying on hard reads in terms of killing MK, as well as avoiding dying to MK (gimps/etc).

 

[Strong Badam]

Alrighty thanks Shaya! It's very hard to quantify things like this with so many variables that aren't even quantifiable themselves so I understand the difficulty in such a project, as well as even defining what match-up values mean. Any plans of a v2.0 of this Matchup Chart?

 

[Alphicans]

Working on it now.

 

[Anthon1996]

Ganondorf is +4 against Snake.

He can win with just 5 moves.

 

[BlueXenon]

Are you removing MK's even match ups in the next match up chart?