Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[san.]

My opinion of Ike's MUs would probably be over exaggerated since I feel a lot of -1s are 0s to me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ dang this needs explaining. I'm not biased against low tiers having good high tier matchups, but Mario seems like he'd suffer from the common "can't kill early enough to beat Lucario" problem.

And in the same hand Mario can exploit the common "doesn't have any quick OoS options " problem that mid-tier characters like Lucario suffer from.

 

[Ussi]

My opinion of Ike's MUs would probably be over exaggerated since I feel a lot of -1s are 0s to me.

its that good mid/low tier player syndrome, causes all MUs to be 1 point higher in your favor

including the ditto ._.

 

[John12346]

I've always felt Lucario vs Mario was even, too.

Just looking at Mario's tools, his Bair and Fireballs are enough to compete with us and keep us at bay. If we could use our AS a bit more liberally, I'd go for a +1 Lucario, but it's slow enough for Mario to react to and Cape, which is a problem when it comes time for Lucario to compete with Mario's zoning.

However, the fact Mario doesn't really have any strong kill moves, doesn't really have any reliable ways to actually land his kill moves, and doesn't have a real way to *safely* get inside of Lucario would bring it back to 0, I'd say.

 

[C.J.]

Marth goes even with diddy. I'll keep screaming it from the rooftops as mike beats diddy's other than me

^_^

Good man! You're smart.

blasphemy.

Shut up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Saying DDD's don't dthrow to usmash isn't an argument. It's not hard to do, and makes killing lucario easy, probably making DDD the most efficient killer of lucario.

Despite the fact saying no one does it is true, I never said this, I said even with it it's not a -2.

For something not hard to do people screw it up a lot, simular to ICs CG on Lucario, it's not hard, but because of magic it's difficult.

well for some reason top D3s have trouble with it so IDK what to say to that. it's still something that's yet to have any effect on the matchup in practice...

and even if D3s did this consistently, fox would still be the most efficient lucario killer. lol.

fox is like... a sleeper hard counter MU IMO. he's like snake... but dies earlier, is waaaay faster, and has a competing air game. he can basically just play keep away and chip with blaster damage... forcing lucario's approach. Then fox can just pick him apart as his speed forces lucario to commit to unsafe things to try to keep up.

and snake just... is really uphill for lack of a better word. everything lucario does... snake has an answer to that does twice much damage... and kills him earlier. if snake is honestly a -1 then lucario shouldn't have MUs worse than -1 outside of D3 with Dthrow to upsmash stuff if they actually start using it. It's really hard to explain... snake can just kinda do snake things against lucario and win. there's nothing particularly notable each have on each other outside the obvious... but one has a much much better risk reward. not to mention when lucario goes down a stock against snake he pretty much just loses. But Lucarios have been losing to snake since the dawn of time... I know it wasn't way too long ago that june thought the matchup was borderline -3... not sure how he feels now though

@ish- tbh I could see wolf having a +1 on lucario. all the spacies give him trouble.

Fox is the only spacie who should beat him. Because he passes every test and is indeed a sleeper bad mu.

In recent high level sets it looks like lucario vs snake is close to even. I haven't seen much DDD vs lucario, but that's because it's incredibly rare. I think I saw atomsk vs a lucario. It was a close set I guess, but it seemed he had the set under control.

TBH, I can't see snake ****** anyone except for some low tiers.

I really think people rip on snake too much, it looks close to even with Trela against almost anyone but Razer because he is the absolute best at that mu. June did pretty well more recently and is showing how good he is at it more recently, it's still kinda hard.

^ dang this needs explaining. I'm not biased against low tiers having good high tier matchups, but Mario seems like he'd suffer from the common "can't kill early enough to beat Lucario" problem.

It's a bit more than just that, but this is a contributing reason.

 

[Gnes]

That everlasting RoyR experience tho...
Lucario is definitely not -1 snake, considering he's -1 diddy, and snake is incredibly more difficult than diddy for Lulu. Don't take Trela's prowess for granted, he researches that matchup to a ridiculous level and STILL only beats Razer 1/6 of the time.

 

[Steam]

What Gnes said. the matchup is booty.

@gheb- mario does well inside. but lucario can space him out just as well. mario can't just SH dair approach. the only threatening thing mario has is that bair.

 

[phi1ny3]

And in the same hand Mario can exploit the common "doesn't have any quick OoS options " problem that mid-tier characters like Lucario suffer from.

Except he does have a fast oos option now (dair oos). It's not a frame 3 nair, but it works almost as well considering it usually hits people by virtue of extended hurtboxes when punishing said move.

D3 is -2, Snake is -2, Fox is potentially -2, erryone else is probably -1 or better. D3 does well by virtue of having **** CPs, still good CG, and shutting out lucario well (it's about as tricky as ZSS v. Falco, ZSS can win, but has a lot of traditional options that are left out). Luckily the problems with landing a killing move in the past for Lucario have been going away, so I feel that they're not any worse than -2. Snake is def. getting better, but it's still in the solid -2 range, both are in a tricky situation once either of them gets the stock lead, but Snake has an easier time making it back, if Lucario loses it it's really, really hard to make it back to even w/o taking a bunch of damage. Trela's more recent matches show him def. starting to demonstrate stronger play v. Snake than in older sets, but Razer was not on top of his game iirc.

I feel DMG/Masky style wario is a possible -2 too.

In recent high level sets it looks like lucario vs snake is close to even. I haven't seen much DDD vs lucario, but that's because it's incredibly rare. I think I saw atomsk vs a lucario. It was a close set I guess, but it seemed he had the set under control.

TBH, I can't see snake ****** anyone except for some low tiers.

Referring to Atomsk having control or the Lucario? The most recent set of a top lucario v. Atomsk, the D3 lost , although tbh he ran into too much stuff lol.

 

[Doc King]

Lucario's IMO since people are doing it :0


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Like it. Fox really is a hard matchup because of up smash being such a good kill move and Lucario having very high traction.

Snake is much harder than D3... like tons...

Snake is a solid -2 IMO... he just is essentially the antithesis to lucario... he can eat the damage, camp him, stuff his ground options and force him to commit to risky air approaches and kill him early and pretty reliably. and if lucario is ever losing to snake by stock... aura kinda screws him.

D3 could be a -1... especially since no D3s use Dthrow>upsmash... it's just not that horrible. Lucario can camp and reasonably live a long time. not to mention go in on D3 hard when he gets momentum.

@fuujin- Zelda isn't a matchup I know all that well so I don't feel like I can confidently say lucario just bodies her. however I do know it's kinda a ***** to approach zelda if lucario winds up trailing and zelda has potential to captialize huge on minor mistakes... and can kill early. yoshi's kill setups on lucario are very specific and situational... and there aren't many bad situations yoshi can put him in anyways... not to mention lucario can operate near yoshi somewhat safely... cept dat nair.

I use d throw to up smash.

Also D3 has slope chaingrabs on Lucario and bair wall of pain. Easily a -2 for Lucario.

Also, Lucario can't camp or run away much. He only has this neutral B which can be easily avoided. You guys sometimes act like D3 doesn't have any dodging options at all.

 

[phi1ny3]

I personally find the dthrow -> buffered usmash relatively small in impact (it just makes it all the more important to avoid the grab) because at top play Lucario gets harder and harder to land a grab on (literally the output goes from like low level/mid level Lucario gets ***** every 10 seconds, to the CG practically being the only direct influence of damage D3 gets, excluding when Lucario goes offstage, while Lucario's damage output becomes much stronger), because while it is a really strong option that blocks out a lot of Luc's, it's almost quite literally the ONLY option that you directly have to focus on (aside from bair oos from lucario crossing up), at least of the ones that directly challenge your own options. Now if D3's utilt was jump cancelable, that would cause much reason to have grief, but until D3 gets a more solid kill move that doesn't take forever to kill with, or relies on heavily punishable mistakes, then I still think Lucario's ok in the MU.

@Doc King: do you plan on releasing videos of some sort on this slope CG? I keep hearing about it, but I haven't actually seen how it works and whatnot. If you have frame advance, that would especially help clarify this, because the only slope infinites I've seen are on extreme slopes like YI: Melee lol

 

[Steam]

Also, Lucario can't camp or run away much. He only has this neutral B which can be easily avoided. You guys sometimes act like D3 doesn't have any dodging options at all.

running away is the best thing lucario has going for him in the matchup lol. D3 has **** approaching options because he's huge and extremely slow. outside of D3's bair lucario can zone D3 really well... and D3 can't really... bair approach and expect to be very successful.

 

[Doc King]

I personally find the dthrow -> buffered usmash relatively small in impact (it just makes it all the more important to avoid the grab) because at top play Lucario gets harder and harder to land a grab on (literally the output goes from like low level/mid level Lucario gets ***** every 10 seconds, to the CG practically being the only direct influence of damage D3 gets, excluding when Lucario goes offstage, while Lucario's damage output becomes much stronger), because while it is a really strong option that blocks out a lot of Luc's, it's almost quite literally the ONLY option that you directly have to focus on (aside from bair oos from lucario crossing up), at least of the ones that directly challenge your own options. Now if D3's utilt was jump cancelable, that would cause much reason to have grief, but until D3 gets a more solid kill move that doesn't take forever to kill with, or relies on heavily punishable mistakes, then I still think Lucario's ok in the MU.

@Doc King: do you plan on releasing videos of some sort on this slope CG? I keep hearing about it, but I haven't actually seen how it works and whatnot. If you have frame advance, that would especially help clarify this, because the only slope infinites I've seen are on extreme slopes like YI: Melee lol

I hope I can be able to get a video of the slope chaingrabs. I have done this before and this definitely works.

running away is the best thing lucario has going for him in the matchup lol. D3 has **** approaching options because he's huge and extremely slow. outside of D3's bair lucario can zone D3 really well... and D3 can't really... bair approach and expect to be very successful.

Lucario run away isn't even close as good as characters such as Sonic, Falco, and Olimar.

D3 has a hard time approaching sometimes. Although for Lucario, you can just jump in mid air sometimes and just dodge Lucario's projectiles easily.

It's a not good option sometimes but it doesn't make the matchup even. Like I could say D3 vs. Oli is even because D3 has some good tools to use like tech chasing, bair wall of pain, and gimping, but ignore the fact that Olimar can camp D3 really well, juggle him very well, space very well, and chaingrab him fairly good. That stuff makes Oli one of D3's hardest matchups.

 

[Steam]

yeah lucario can't camp like falco, oli or snake. but he's still faster and has the better projectile.

and honestly I don't want to be anywhere near D3's grab range so I'd just run away and throw things

 

[Tesh]

And in the same hand Mario can exploit the common "doesn't have any quick OoS options " problem that mid-tier characters like Lucario suffer from.

How is Mario gonna make Lucario shield. Doesn't Lucario generally out prioritize Mario? And trades start being really bad after Lucario hits a certain percent right?

 

[Steam]

How is Mario gonna make Lucario shield. Doesn't Lucario generally out prioritize Mario? And trades start being really bad after Lucario hits a certain percent right?

lucario's moves pretty much always beat out mario's. dem disjoints

and trades aren't always terrible with lucario. really depends on the move. like you can trade with his fair all day since it does like 8% at absolute max... but like his bair fluctuates between 11 and 22% iirc... so yeah

 

[Doc King]

yeah lucario can't camp like falco, oli or snake. but he's still faster and has the better projectile.

and honestly I don't want to be anywhere near D3's grab range so I'd just run away and throw things

lol.

D3 can just catch up with him. It's not like he has mk aireals or Sonic speed or something fast for him to use when he's near an edge. D3 will eventually catchup with him and do something big like chaingrabs or bair. Lucario is a very poor example of someone who can run away from D3. Plus, you gotta man up and fight instead of running from your fears.

 

[Steam]

it's how the matchup is played for lucario. D3 doesn't just get in for free and lucario can actually cross over pretty decently.

tbh lucario mostly bodies D3 when he's not getting CG'd off the stage... shame

 

[da K.I.D.]

tbh lucario mostly bodies D3 when he's not getting CG'd off the stage... shame

this is the case for sonic too, id assume its like that for at least 2/3rds of the characters that get CGd

 

[Laem]

That's like the essence of d3
Silly character xD

 

[mikeHAZE]

Either Even for Sonic's that have no idea what to do against Yoshi (Cause then their mindset is "CAMP ALL DAY"). Or +1 Sonic's favor for ones that know what the hell they're doing like Espy X or Speed for Example.


I don't keep track of character specifics, but you beat Neo. Yosh has a either 2-0 or 3-0 record with Nike.
I have a 0-3 with Nike, and Polt recently lost to Mikehaze in tournament.

Provide more statistics if you can.

game 3, last stock btw

 

[Sinister Slush]

game 3, last stock btw

Left early with Carpool so missed all of pro Bracket, Does anyone even know the Yoshi MU?

 

[phi1ny3]

tbh comparing Luc's camp game to D3's is like comparing two different types of feces.

Difference is, one is much more threatening when you leave him alone >

Also, Lucario is still really good at approaching in the MU too, FH aerials are safe on block, and it's really hard to truly pin down Luc's options each time if he's coming down with his assortment of DJ -> dair (when spaced, this can't be grabbed, but it can be utilted sometimes), ASC/breversals, nair, AD, and frame 1 FP. Whenever I see a grab it happens usually from either a slipup like a dair that was too close to the ground, or a correct guess from D3 from Lucario trying stuff on the ground (which tbh, is pretty high risk-high reward for luc, which is the main reason lucarios will go for stuff like that).

D3 wins though, don't worry your pretty little head about that, but I have to chuckle a little each time someone says he's a "counter" to lucario. Snake is much more akin to this than the former.

Also, when I first thought about Gheb's opinion on Lucario, I thought it was the "sorta trolling about him being mid-tier, but nooooot really, rite guyz?" sorta thing

After seeing how low he REALLY thought Lucario was (like Low-mid tier), I can't say that's even rational, there's clearly a drinking of "he's not popular in Japan and he's 'slow', there4 he's bad" koolaid

 

[Doc King]

it's how the matchup is played for lucario. D3 doesn't just get in for free and lucario can actually cross over pretty decently.

tbh lucario mostly bodies D3 when he's not getting CG'd off the stage... shame

Lucario doesn't body D3 at all. I mean he has some stuff that make it no worse than it is, such as his fair. You gotta except that this is one of Lucario's wost matchups.

Also you still didn't explain how Lucario can successfully run away from D3. You're sounding like Jebus now.

 

[phi1ny3]

How 2 "run" from D3:

See, When your main method of approach is dash -> shield with a pinch of ftilt landing punishes, with as slow of a dash as D3's is, it's generally not... the quickest way around. Are we saying this character can time him out? Probably not, but he certainly has a hard time pinning his options down completely. Lucario has a lot of ways to make D3 put up his shield, like ASC mixups (yes, it's borderline "mindgames", but with how fast he can cancel and access his options, it's really good for pressuring the opponent in this way), and aerials, not to mention his roll is a good pinch-hitter for resetting things back again and resuming, provided you don't make it predictable.

Does Lucario force D3 to truthfully approach, by outright outcamping him? Not exactly, but waddles can't either, and that letting your opponent charge a really good tool without much pressure is a really silly idea, especially since he can still approach pretty well.

I also don't think he means "body" in the sense of a tangible advantage, more or less, but he is saying that when Lucario gets in, D3 usually suffers taking a lot of damage along the way, it certainly looks disheartening for D3 (until he lands on the ground again, then things resume to having to zone D3 a bunch to avoid getting grabbed as best as possible).

 

[Doc King]

How 2 "run" from D3:

See, When your main method of approach is dash -> shield with a pinch of ftilt landing punishes, with as slow of a dash as D3's is, it's generally not... the quickest way around. Are we saying this character can time him out? Probably not, but he certainly has a hard time pinning his options down completely. Lucario has a lot of ways to make D3 put up his shield, like ASC mixups (yes, it's borderline "mindgames", but with how fast he can cancel and access his options, it's really good for pressuring the opponent in this way), and aerials, not to mention his roll is a good pinch-hitter for resetting things back again and resuming, provided you don't make it predictable.

Does Lucario force D3 to truthfully approach, by outright outcamping him? Not exactly, but waddles can't either, and that letting your opponent charge a really good tool without much pressure is a really silly idea, especially since he can still approach pretty well.

I also don't think he means "body" in the sense of a tangible advantage, more or less, but he is saying that when Lucario gets in, D3 usually suffers taking a lot of damage along the way, it certainly looks disheartening for D3 (until he lands on the ground again, then things resume to having to zone D3 a bunch to avoid getting grabbed as best as possible).

That makes sense. D3 would still have a +2 on Lucario. I know Lucario has some options like how Marth and Snake have, but it's still the kings favor.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, agreed, Lucario's still got some exposable flaws when it all comes down to it, although tbh if it weren't for the fact that D3 lives for super long, I almost feel it could be -1 as Luc, but it's def. -2 especially considering there are some really unfair stage advantages.

 

[Doc King]

Yeah, agreed, Lucario's still got some exposable flaws when it all comes down to it, although tbh if it weren't for the fact that D3 lives for super long, I almost feel it could be -1 as Luc, but it's def. -2 especially considering there are some really unfair stage advantages.

I think it's a lot of that up smash thing that makes the matchup a lot. Slope infinites are good for mostly counterpicks if you want to combo Lucario more. His survivability does look like a threat when you get the first kill because Lucario will get weaker and it will just be tough.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Where can these slope infinites be performed?

 

[Doc King]

Every stage in the unity ruleset except for BF, FD, and SV.

10/13 stages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How do you do it on Halberd?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Guess I'm optimistic about him.

 

[C.J.]

How do you do it on Halberd?

I would guess the flying part of the stage with the slopes on it?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Those slopes are so slight though, I have trouble believing Lucario can get infinited there.

 

[Flayl]

There's a weird part on the Halberd itself that stops people from tumbling over it after a DThrow, I've seen Dedede doing a standing chaingrab there but I couldn't find the vid. If I recall correctly, it's where the floating stage's ledges emerge from the ship

 

[Steam]

I also don't think he means "body" in the sense of a tangible advantage, more or less, but he is saying that when Lucario gets in, D3 usually suffers taking a lot of damage along the way, it certainly looks disheartening for D3 (until he lands on the ground again, then things resume to having to zone D3 a bunch to avoid getting grabbed as best as possible).

I'm saying that when lucario isn't being CG'd off the stage, lucario kinda ***** D3... really hard.

but unfortunately for lucario he gets CG'd across the stage a lot and the mere presence of it limits his options.

it's definitely still D3 favor lol... though that reminds me I need to start training my falco again for D3s since I don't have MK to turn to anymore XD.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i want a video of somebody doing something other than a normal cg on yoshis story, cause those slopes are pretty much miniscule...

 

[Ussi]

Those slopes ruin my AC aerials though ;-;

 

[phi1ny3]

There's a weird part on the Halberd itself that stops people from tumbling over it after a DThrow, I've seen Dedede doing a standing chaingrab there but I couldn't find the vid. If I recall correctly, it's where the floating stage's ledges emerge from the ship

Yeah, I saw a video of Seibrik doing a standing CG on wolf on Halberd on that spot you mentioned.

 

[ElDominio]

The timing required to chaingrab Sawnik is really strict (D3's chaingrab),
or maybe PR D3's aren't good at CG'ing?

I usually mash UpB to get out of the CG, and usually get out after maybe like 3 Dthrows