Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Ussi]

Basically what Kid said

People can basically have "MU MMs" winner gets the better MU ratio

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Apex will have some of the best player in the world and pretty much every character in the game will be represented to some extent so that might be one of the very few times you get to see a high level Luigi vs pit match or some thing of that nature with lesser played characters. to more accurate analyse certain matchups.

The players need to play each other often enough to know the MU, but not too often to know each other's habits.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah except if those match ups never happen, the two sides won't necessarily know how to play it properly (as in, you're saying the first time two good players play a match up with another good player that's definitely going to be the pinnacle/decider).

One Half Agreement Points @ Grim.

 

[da K.I.D.]

even having videos of two people that are good at the game, good at adapting and good at their characters will help give people that are looking at the matchup a better idea of whats feasible or not and whats consistent or not. some times its easy to lose track of something like that when theres nothing to base the conclusions on.

example when we were doing the sonic vs ness matchup. it just happened to be right after a weekend where X played FOW.

Fow won the set rather decisively, but it still gave enough information on the matchup for us to come to a consensus, even though that consensus was not ness beating sonic in the matchup.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can Sonic grab release Ness to a regrab?

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, it was done a lot on the videos I have watched of that MU.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Espy vs shaky @ MLG

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah except if those match ups never happen, the two sides won't necessarily know how to play it properly (as in, you're saying the first time two good players play a match up with another good player that's definitely going to be the pinnacle/decider).

The match ups won't happen because every character will be too busy losing to Meta Knight.

 

[Shaya]

I mean like, look at espy.
He's yet to lose to a true connoisseur of back air, so he thinks the marth match up is even or something. Even after he plays against higher than nike (not hard, amirite? <3) level skills.

 

[Alphicans]

looooooooool

this call out

 

[Yink]

Espy vs shaky @ MLG

Yeah that's realistic, but not really. no offense to Espy of course, but even then he knows the match up is still only +1 Sonic.

 

[Espy Rose]

All non-Mike Haze Marths are...well...unintimidating in any way, Shaya.

 

[Flayl]

Do I get to use KingKong and only KingKong as the base for Bowser's matchups? I want some of that Marth swag.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fun part is that M1keHaze thinks Marth vs Sonic is even anyway. He's like the only active US Marth who's not completely deluded about his match-ups =/

 

[C.J.]

I completely agree that Marth/Sonic is even. At the absolute best for Marth he wins like... 52.1478:48.8522

Marth is even vs like.... 2/3 of the cast. >_>


Oh, nvm. You said active.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I usually agree with you CJ but I didn't consider you because I hardly see you in FL tourney results.

 

[C.J.]

I noticed you said "active" after the fact <_<

 

[ElDominio]

Sonic goes even with the entire cast.
Trufax.

 

[Nike.]

I mean like, look at espy.
He's yet to lose to a true connoisseur of back air, so he thinks the marth match up is even or something. Even after he plays against higher than nike (not hard, amirite? <3) level skills.

The deception

 

[Supreme Dirt]

imo Marth only loses to like... Dedede, ROB, maybe Snake, maybe Donkey Kong, and Metaknight. And that's about it.

But he really doesn't **** any characters that matter except maybe Wario and Falco.

I'd make a MU chart but I really don't know Marth well enough beyond high-top tier MUs. And Ganon/Mario/Yoshi.

 

[C.J.]

Marth's MUs imo:

-1:


0:
, , , , , , , , , ,

+1:
, , , , , , , ,

+2
, , , ,

+3:
, , ,

, , , and I can see as 0 or +1
and I can see as +1 or +2
I can see as +2 or +3.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

lmao.

I have so many issues with that it's not funny.

And oddly the biggest source is you rating a couple of matchups as harder than they are for Marth. I'm... not used to telling Marth mains they **** a character harder than they thought.

Ok, to elaborate...

MK and Dedede from -1 to -2
Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, and ROB from 0 to -1
Wario, Peach, and Pit from +1 to +2
Mario and Falcon from +2 to +3
Ganondorf from +3 to +4

Olimar -1
TL even
Snake +1
Pikachu +2
Yoshi +2
Bowser +1
Samus +2

 

[Cassio]

lmao.

I have so many issues with that it's not funny.

And oddly the biggest source is you rating a couple of matchups as harder than they are for Marth. I'm... not used to telling Marth mains they **** a character harder than they thought.

Ok, to elaborate...

MK and Dedede from -1 to -2
Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, and ROB from 0 to -1
Wario, Peach, and Pit from +1 to +2
Mario and Falcon from +2 to +3
Ganondorf from +3 to +4

Olimar -1
TL even
Snake +1
Pikachu +2
Yoshi +2
Bowser +1
Samus +2

Hello there Mr. Dirt van winkle. I wish to welcome you to the late 2011 metagame. I do hope you enjoyed your 3 year slumber.

CJ I really want to believe Marth could go even with diddy, but LSC results rocked my hopes.

 

[Laem]

Sorry Dirt.
CJ besting you right now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Spoiler

*lays down bear trap*

Ike's MU IMO

Spoiler

In the order they appear as smiles in that smiley pop up window because I'm too dang lazy to do it any other way

:

55-45
60-40
45-55 to 50-50
60-40
50-50
45-55 to 50-50
55-45
45-55
55-45 to 60-40
60-40
40-60
40-60
60-40
45-55
40-60 to 45-55
40-60
45-50
45-55 to 55-45
55-45
45-55
30-70, not that it really matters anymore
40-60, maybe 35-65 but I highly doubt it.
40-60
45-55
40-60
40-60 to 44-55
55-45 to 60-40
45-55 to 50-50
55-45 to 60-40
65-35
45-55 to 55-45
45-55 to 55-45
40-60
60-40
40-60
50-50 to 55-45
55-45
45-55 to 55-45
45-55
45-55 to 50-50

A lot of MUs are harder to pinpoint to a number because it either looks one way on paper but keeps playing out another way, or every time the MU is played the skill levels of the players aren't close enough together to get a good feel.

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Cassio]

I dont know Ike well enough to know which of those MUs are supposed to look controversial. You have him at a disadvantage with virtually all of high tier and top of mid though so it doesnt look too overpowered. Actually that spread doesnt look very strong at all, his first notable advantage is vs ROB... The best that could be said is that he doesnt get destroyed by anyone.

ICs and wolf confuse me but I wont question it.

 

[C.J.]

lmao.

I have so many issues with that it's not funny.

And oddly the biggest source is you rating a couple of matchups as harder than they are for Marth. I'm... not used to telling Marth mains they **** a character harder than they thought.

Because I understand that while in super theory bros Marth wins or is even at best with 99% of the cast, in practice it is a very different story.

MK and Dedede from -1 to -2

I can understand your thinking about MK as many people have held it in the past. However, almost all of the Marth and MK boards will disagree with you on the MK MU. Mike has shown time and time again that Marth has the options that are necessary to win the MU. While it's an oversimplification, you can generalize the MU into: It's Marth getting a GR->spike or tipper fsmash vs MK getting a gimp and juggling. It's a very slight MK edge.

DDD is definitely -1. This is near inarguable. I've played 4GOD (this past weekend actually) and CO18 multiple times in the past. Time and again, as long as I'm patient, it goes to last stock- and I'm not even good at this game, lol. Marth has to play campy as fk and the matches WILL take 6-7 minutes, but it's a super even MU in general. DDD lives longer but gets juggled HARD to offset it. They both **** each other offstage and on the ledge. It pretty much just comes down to the fact that DDD gets Marth to the ledge easier than vice-versa due to the chaingrab. Almost everyone I've talked to about it agrees with me on the matter.

Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, and ROB from 0 to -1

IC I can understand- some other Marths agree. Others think Marth wins. It's REALLY complex and annoying MU and depends really heavily on stage list. If you really really care enough, go to the Marth boards at the end of next week or so.
DK- Last time Mike played Will, Mike won. NEO has a winning record vs Will (and Will is a significantly better player than NEO. <3 NEO) as well. He outranges us but we outdisjoint him by a LOT. He lives longer but we **** him offstage hard as well as on the ledge. We juggle each other about as hard as the other does. It's pretty even <_<
ROB- ROB has ftilt and projectiles... and bairing our recovery? That's about it. He kind of juggles us but his uair is SDIable and punishable on hit. We juggle him far worse, we **** him offstage far worse, and ledge trap him for years. He lives slightly longer and can ftilt our fair which is annoying as hell.

Wario, Peach, and Pit from +1 to +2

Marth can zone Wario for days... this is true. Too bad we mess up once, get dair combo'd for 30%. Then we mess up again and die to waft. Offstage we can't really pressure him that hard and he can do it to us though. We can ledge trap him though which is a godsend.

Mario and Falcon from +2 to +3

Ehh, I can agree with this. Kinda. Maybe. I don't have a strong enough opinion to argue it.

Ganondorf from +3 to +4

Same thing as Wario. If we commit to anything, and mess up or miss, then we take half of our stock or just straight up die.

Olimar -1

How on earth do we lose to Olimar?!?

TL even
Snake +1

I'm okay with these

Pikachu +2

Pika is annoyingly small. Not overly relevant, but it's true. Basically, Marth can't jump in this MU. If we can't jump... we're inherently going to be limited away from a lot of our best options.
Yoshi +2

Bowser +1
Samus +2

I can agree with these

CJ I really want to believe Marth could go even with diddy, but LSC results rocked my hopes.

All I saw was Mike dying at 60 because he got overly aggressive offstage and being outplayed by Gnes. Gnes is a better player than Mike (Love you if you see this though) and while Mike's item game has gotten significantly better (I take credit for that <_<) it's still not at the same level as a Diddy main's item game/item control. Give it time. The MU is even, but it requires an equal level of item control as Diddy mains have which isn't the easiest thing. I recognize that this is a bit more theorycraft than I usually do but I honestly believe it to be the case.
Also, even working under the fact that gnes is a better player than Mike (and Mike dyed so early game 2), the matches were STILL really close.

Sorry Dirt.
CJ besting you right now.

<3

 

[Ussi]

Long post on Ike's MUs

Converting that into the MU chart language of +4/-4 looks like it'll be a... mess.. considering what the MU chart is going to look like.. can't really give my opinion on what you think since well I think in the +4/-4 now

 

[Nike.]

I think Zss is the only +1 Marth has that should be 0. Maybeeeee olimar, but we still haven't completely dived into it like MK/Diddy/Snake.

Everything else is still +1 imo (Pika/Lucario/Pit/Kirby/Sonic/other +1's).

IC's could go like... anywhere lol.

Every good Marth is going to Apex. The whole Marth is great/overrated argument will finally be answered then (inb4 every Marth loses to MK twice in bracket).

 

[Ussi]

Nah man, every Marth is going to lose to mid tiers

/datMUexperience

 

[C.J.]

I think Zss is the only +1 Marth has that should be 0. Maybeeeee olimar, but we still haven't completely dived into it like MK/Diddy/Snake.

Everything else is still +1 imo (Pika/Lucario/Pit/Kirby/Sonic/other +1's).

IC's could go like... anywhere lol.

See, and I can understand all of that. It's just a bit farther on the side of theorycraft as opposed to what real life probable to happen.


@ Niddo- I thought Oli was closer? Ditto Falco. Marth is probably closer to 45:55 imo. Also, I would have thought Diddy was more 40-60

Other than that though, I largely agree tbh.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Converting that into the MU chart language of +4/-4 looks like it'll be a... mess.. considering what the MU chart is going to look like.. can't really give my opinion on what you think since well I think in the +4/-4 now

Screw the +/- system. I can't think in those numbers at all.

@ Niddo- I thought Oli was closer? Ditto Falco. Marth is probably closer to 45:55 imo. Also, I would have thought Diddy was more 40-60

Other than that though, I largely agree tbh.

I've heard of 45-55 for Olimar before, but that was pretty much rejected. That was, granted, a little while ago, but I don't think it's in that range. Falco depends on who you ask: 40-60 or 44:55. Marth is another one where it seems to depend on who you ask...Diddy I firmly think is around the range I put it.

No arguments from Mario/Luigi/ICs/PT/Peach/Fox people? Man these topics have gotten boring.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I don't care about MUs enough to actually discuss them unless they sound really laughable.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Marth's match-ups are supposed to be like this:

-1
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

and are undecided between +1 and 0 [Pikachu feels closer to 0, TL closer to +1]; MK as -2 is dumb pro-ban populism at this point imho. My opinion generally doesn't fluctuate at this point any more, if anything changes it's just the fine-tuning between 0 to +2 where I can't tell if Samus/Link are +1 or +2 for example.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Surprised at the amount of people who put Marth vs Yoshi down as +1.
I really expected most of everyones opinions to have it down as +2.

 

[Browny]

I think Marth's match-ups are supposed to be like this:

-1
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

and are undecided between +1 and 0 [Pikachu feels closer to 0, TL closer to +1]; MK as -2 is dumb pro-ban populism at this point imho. My opinion generally doesn't fluctuate at this point any more, if anything changes it's just the fine-tuning between 0 to +2 where I can't tell if Samus/Link are +1 or +2 for example.

looks 100% accurate to me, case closed guise.

 

[C.J.]

Sorry Gheb, Browny agreed with you- you're automatically wrong.
<3

 

[Mr. Johan]

Why not. 's MU spread, imo

-2:
-1:
0:
+1:

I don't believe Sonic beats anyone higher than a small advantage, and for some of the ones he does beat, it's due to his sheer mobility and his ability to time out matches.

 

[Chuee]

I think Marth's match-ups are supposed to be like this:

-1
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

and are undecided between +1 and 0 [Pikachu feels closer to 0, TL closer to +1]; MK as -2 is dumb pro-ban populism at this point imho. My opinion generally doesn't fluctuate at this point any more, if anything changes it's just the fine-tuning between 0 to +2 where I can't tell if Samus/Link are +1 or +2 for example.

Ganon only +2?

 

[Delta-cod]

Surprised at the amount of people who put Marth vs Yoshi down as +1.
I really expected most of everyones opinions to have it down as +2.

I believe as of late that Yoshi has a VERY good track record against Marth.

Why not. 's MU spread, imo

-2:
-1:
0:
+1:

I don't believe Sonic beats anyone higher than a small advantage, and for some of the ones he does beat, it's due to his sheer mobility and his ability to time out matches.

You're missing Yoshi.