Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Anthon1996]

This is gold.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doc King vs. the world.

Grim didn't you tell me Dedede vs. Puff was like +3 at ACL Melbourne? Or am I making that up. I'm so confused ;~;

I might've said that. Before I actually played against D3 I thought that because that is what everyone else was telling me, lol, and I thought it'd be better to follow consensus than get laughed at for my uneducated opinion.

Now I've learnt more about both characters and the game as a whole, I feel more comfortable discussing it. I still haven't had any recent matches against D3 mains, only Shaun's D3, so I am not entirely certain about what I posted above.

I'd be keen to play against you again and put it to the test, though!

 

[san.]

DDD vs Puff is like -1 from my experience. Easy to get hits in, but it's easy for everything to stale after a while. It's not very difficult at all when I play this MU, but I can see how Jigglypuff can have a slight disadvantage.

MK on the other hand, don't see how puff can ever win against a competent MK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff can win vs. MK ONLY if she never loses the lead.

When she has to approach MK, it becomes -4. If she doesn't have to approach, its only -2ish

 

[Fuujin]

One user who severely overestimates his character arguing with another user who severely overestimates his character over which character wins the said match up.
This will not end well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

This is a horrible and biased argument right here.

This is probably the most hypocritical thing youve ever said.

For his killing thing, you forgot to mention many thing. One being that he has many kill moves outside of bair and up tilt (I know those are the easiest to land kill moves and most reliable) like d smash and fair.

So what youre saying is, your going to hit the most aerial character in the game (puff) with ddds down smash? or a fair that is slower than every single one of puffs aerials? right.

thats only a semi viable argument when talking about the rest of the cast.

down smash kills average characters around 120 which is average. Same for fair. Same for up smash. Down tilt doesnt kill until like 170. Maybe later. Down air doesnt kill until after 150, up air slightly sooner.

All of these moves are really hard to hit with/not get DId. so when an opponent plays safe, its not uncommon to for characters to live past 160 on multiple stocks in a 3 stock game.

Second, you forgot to mention that when D3 chaingrabs, it can refresh his kill moves along with waddle dees.

Getting a grab doesnt make any of his other moves any easier to hit with. all it does is make bair fresher. Which like I said is the only move that you dont have to work overly hard to force people to get hit by.

A third thing is that D3 can actually do finishers on many characters like d throw to up smash on Lucario.

The two best DDD players I know of are Seibrik and Atomsk. Seibrik doesnt even attempt that. and The one match I saw atomsk try it. he only hit it once out of 4 tries, so im not going to factor that into any of my analysis, until somebody at a high level starts doing it in OFFLINE tournaments consistently.

A fourth thing is that you didn't mention how well they kill, they can kill pretty well and pretty good.

This is painfully redundant. Ive gone over the rest of his moveset already.

D3 has d throw to up smash on Lucario along with several other characters, also d throw to d tilt, the rco lag crap, and this dash cancelling d smash on 4 characters.

I talked about the up smash point already, nobody does it in tournaments = i dont care about it.

down throw down tilt I dont think hits with the strongest part of the move. and it mostly only works on the heaviest characters, So I dont care about that as much either. Ive watched a DK Survive down throw to down tilt at the edge of FD at 200. If youre trying to bring that up so as to say that ddd has good killing utility, youre definitely doing it wrong.

Rainbow is very known for D3 dominating there. I don't know why I even have to bother typing about how this stage is good for D3 because you are too stupid to know why. This stage has a wall infinite first part, a bunch of walkoffs, and it's a complete air stage.

A couple gimmicks makes a character good on a stage. DDD is good on this stage =/= DDD dominates this stage. You need to learn to choose your words better.

For Brinstar, it has a lot of air, it's very small which prevents hard camping, you can perform many slope infinites such as Wario, Wolf, and Ganon. Also it's very easy to stale move refresh and so that can help with the standing infinite characters. You can also do bair strings pretty easy and you get a killing advantage.

This is your problem, you only look at things from one perspective. You only look at what ddd gains from the stage and you ignore what he gains from it.
For one. he loses a lot of the potency of his CG from the stage being short and it messes up as many CGs as it gives him infinites from the slopes. Theres also the fact at a lot of random characters beat him in the air and he cant stay grounded due to the seemingly random lava intervals. Any characters like mario and luigi and wario that have a hard time getting around his bair, will still have a hard time against him on brinstar. Any character that can consistently beat his bair like falco, pit and zss from underneath and even ike (but Ike beats every character in the air, but thats aside from the point) is going to do much better against DDD on brinstar.

The one thing you forgot to mention is that Puff has an extremely hard time getting in, which makes it hard for Puff to kill and not D3. Only major thing she has is a wall of pain, but D3 can do that too. Easily +3 for the King.

What do you even mean by puff getting in? Once again, stop talking about a matchup you know nothing about.

In all honesty, the vast majority of the time, killing puff is just as hard for the other character (sometimes more so) than it is for the other guy to kill puff. Despite the fact that shes the lightest character in the game.

 

[Steam]

Steam still needs to see things with his own eyes to believe something exists I see -_-

and I'm proud of it. skepticism is a good thing. :3

but I honestly just haven't seen a vid of it and I THOUGHT iirc it was a JC upsmash that d3 had to do. I spent a good hour or so trying to do just buffer dash > upsmash to Lucario this morning and couldn't get to work (lucario would just powershield it every time) so I just thought I'd verify because I do recall that it was apparently really difficult to pull off...

and IDK doc... RC seems like a really good stage to time D3 out on... like stupid easy. not to mention it creates many angles to abuse his... lame duck air physics. but yeah if you're a CGable character and D3 is winning, it's a decent stage for D3. but I'd be much more afraid of delfino

 

[Doc King]

This is probably the most hypocritical thing youve ever said.


So what youre saying is, your going to hit the most aerial character in the game (puff) with ddds down smash? or a fair that is slower than every single one of puffs aerials? right.

thats only a semi viable argument when talking about the rest of the cast.

down smash kills average characters around 120 which is average. Same for fair. Same for up smash. Down tilt doesnt kill until like 170. Maybe later. Down air doesnt kill until after 150, up air slightly sooner.

All of these moves are really hard to hit with/not get DId. so when an opponent plays safe, its not uncommon to for characters to live past 160 on multiple stocks in a 3 stock game.


Getting a grab doesnt make any of his other moves any easier to hit with. all it does is make bair fresher. Which like I said is the only move that you dont have to work overly hard to force people to get hit by.


The two best DDD players I know of are Seibrik and Atomsk. Seibrik doesnt even attempt that. and The one match I saw atomsk try it. he only hit it once out of 4 tries, so im not going to factor that into any of my analysis, until somebody at a high level starts doing it in OFFLINE tournaments consistently.


This is painfully redundant. Ive gone over the rest of his moveset already.

I talked about the up smash point already, nobody does it in tournaments = i dont care about it.

down throw down tilt I dont think hits with the strongest part of the move. and it mostly only works on the heaviest characters, So I dont care about that as much either. Ive watched a DK Survive down throw to down tilt at the edge of FD at 200. If youre trying to bring that up so as to say that ddd has good killing utility, youre definitely doing it wrong.



A couple gimmicks makes a character good on a stage. DDD is good on this stage =/= DDD dominates this stage. You need to learn to choose your words better.

This is your problem, you only look at things from one perspective. You only look at what ddd gains from the stage and you ignore what he gains from it.
For one. he loses a lot of the potency of his CG from the stage being short and it messes up as many CGs as it gives him infinites from the slopes. Theres also the fact at a lot of random characters beat him in the air and he cant stay grounded due to the seemingly random lava intervals. Any characters like mario and luigi and wario that have a hard time getting around his bair, will still have a hard time against him on brinstar. Any character that can consistently beat his bair like falco, pit and zss from underneath and even ike (but Ike beats every character in the air, but thats aside from the point) is going to do much better against DDD on brinstar.



What do you even mean by puff getting in? Once again, stop talking about a matchup you know nothing about.

In all honesty, the vast majority of the time, killing puff is just as hard for the other character (sometimes more so) than it is for the other guy to kill puff. Despite the fact that shes the lightest character in the game.

For the Puff matchup, I will be honest, but I don't know the matchup too well since the lack of Puff mains. So I apologize for acting like I knew it a lot.

I was able to perform d throw the up smash on Lucario in a tourney before and that match was laggy as heck. It really isn't hard to do and it doesn't make the technique useless if the top D3's don't use it. It was like Salem with Nickriddle.

For brinstar. It's a very character dependant cp. For a lot of important matchup's, that stage is so great.

 

[Spelt]

why are you still using that obnoxious font color goddamn.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im just going to assume that I was perfectly correct about everything you didnt respond to.

For the Puff matchup, I will be honest, but I don't know the matchup too well since the lack of Puff mains. So I apologize for acting like I knew it a lot.

try an think before you speak and phrase your words better next time.

I was able to perform d throw the up smash on Lucario in a tourney before and that match was laggy as heck. It really isn't hard to do and it doesn't make the technique useless if the top D3's don't use it. It was like Salem with Nickriddle.

I dont care about what you do online. And until you go to an offline event you will never understand why. Nor will you understand the difference. which is why im not going to bother explaining it.

Im also not sure why you referenced salem and nick riddle. Maybe because you were trying to state that just because one pro doesnt use a certain technique or move doesnt mean that its useless or that another player wont find a use for it. Only problem is that Salem doesnt really use any techniques that Nick doesnt (except maybe tether canceling into a double jump but even then, thats inconsequential) its just that he uses the characters tools differently.

Thats not the same as none of the best players being technically capable of using a specific technique. Which is the situation I was talking about.

For brinstar. It's a very character dependant cp. For a lot of important matchup's, that stage is so great.

And for a lot of other matchups, its really really bad. this is your problem, once again you are only looking at one side of a 2 sided coin.

 

[Chuee]

For brinstar. It's a very character dependant cp. For a lot of important matchup's, that stage is so great.

Thanks for providing examples.

 

[Cassio]

Puff is my favorite low tier character to pick against D3. The only reason I use puff is to rest people and D3 is sooooo easy to rest compared to most characters.

Also Jiggs charged dsmash is the best smash taunt in the game. I died the first time I saw it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS +3 King Dedede and DK

I say what i want

Cass so right, Jiggs' dsmash is amazing (kind of a good move too situationally)

 

[Anthon1996]

I was able to perform d throw the up smash on Lucario in a tourney before and that match was laggy as heck.

If I gotta go to the hospital due to a fractured skull due to how hard I am facepalming right now, I'll blame you.

If you wish to actually prove a point, you gotta go to a real, offline tourney, where there is no lag.

 

[Shaya]

If Puff was as bad as everyone says she is, I wouldn't be able to beat people with her after they have had over a year of match-up practice as well as beating people I have only just met.

There is a point where you have to say "Alright, this character doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as Ganondorf".

You don't play good people.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

(kind of a good move too situationally)

Nah, it isn't.

You don't play good people.

Irrelevant. I play people who play the game competitively, that is enough.

Unless you think Australia is so bad that we can't beat someone in the same tier as Ganondorf after almost 2 years of experience in the MU?

 

[Conviction]

In other words, if you say yes, that's means you boo boo tier son.

 

[Shaya]

It's your state, not mine
And Ganondorf isn't in his own tier for sake of aesthetics. He's widely seen as just that much worse. Maybe along with Zelda.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's your state, not mine
And Ganondorf isn't in his own tier for sake of aesthetics. He's widely seen as just that much worse. Maybe along with Zelda.

As a member of the BBR, I assumed you'd know that Ganon isn't in his own tier.

H: Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

wtf u talkin bout, son?

And SA is actually good at Brawl now... Lol. We still have Apollo at the top, then Nova/Me/Ghost/Allen/Aces close behind him, with Btmans not too far behind us.

You guys don't even have tournies so basically anything you say about MUs is less valid than what I say xD

 

[dean.]

Although Shaya worded it strangely (I had to double-check it), I think he said that the reason Ganondorf isn't in his own tier is for aesthetical purposes.

Shaya still comfortably outplaced every South Australian at Reloaded...

 

[Shaya]

And Ganondorf isn't in his own tier for the sake of aesthetics. He's widely seen as just that much worse. Maybe along with Zelda.

Comprehension.
I agree I may have worded that badly, especially as I missed a 'the'.

Ganondorf was in his own tier last tier list, this time around Zelda was a bit closer to him points wise. But a Ganon only tier would have been justifiable but as the guy who managed the tier list project we decided to lump them together. Kapish?

We have a this phobia thing of going past H tier or something.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Shaya still comfortably outplaced every South Australian at Reloaded...

We have our johns

Ghost would've placed decently higher if he didn't get bracket-***** by Apollo changing things around, and Apollo's loss to SD was uncharacteristic.

Not to mention that this is before Allen came onto the scene (he placed higher than Shaya would've at BAM ) and Aces improved.

Comprehension.
I agree I may have worded that badly, especially as I missed a 'the'.

I read it as "and Ganondorf isn't own tier just for sake of aesthetics, you know", does that make sense?

Ganondorf was in his own tier last tier list, this time around Zelda was a bit closer to him points wise. But a Ganon only tier would have been justifiable but as the guy who managed the tier list project we decided to lump them together. Kapish?

We have a this phobia thing of going past H tier or something.

Thats really stupid, lol.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Comprehension.
I agree I may have worded that badly, especially as I missed a 'the'.

Ganondorf was in his own tier last tier list, this time around Zelda was a bit closer to him points wise. But a Ganon only tier would have been justifiable but as the guy who managed the tier list project we decided to lump them together. Kapish?

We have a this phobia thing of going past H tier or something.

Oh just like arbitrarily deciding to cut off high tier before Fox.

 

[DMG]

Fox is debatable high tier.

 

[Shaya]

Wasn't exactly arbitrary.
We discussed it.

Just as we did with Ganondorf considering his 'numbers' were drastically off from the one/two spots above.
I've said this countless times but
Voting ONLY DECIDES THE ORDER OF CHARACTERS FROM 1-X
If people aren't sure of the order of the 2nd-4th best characters in the game, but are pretty set from 5-9th, then on averages only, 4th will be a distance from 5th. Should 5th and onwards be in a different tier or the same?

Voting ONLY DECIDES THE ORDER OF CHARACTERS FROM 1-X. TIER POSITIONS ARE DERIVED FROM STATISTICS AS WELL AS THROUGH DISCOURSE.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOL I argued with morons for pages over the Fox thing and everyone called me names

 

[da K.I.D.]

dont mad people, we have tons of reason to be happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY363kqc5uQ

 

[Hippieslayer]

LOL I argued with morons for pages over the Fox thing and everyone called me names

That **** was ****ing painful reading I tell you, you was like 1+1=2 and they were like, no what do u mean? Why cant 1+1=3, we have done nothing wrong! Allmost makes me wish for a kind of sollipsism to be true just so that those people can be written of as zombies.

 

[IhaveSonar]

That video is da bess.

 

[Browny]

So happy I randomly checked this thread, to see that video. So good.

Hi SFP

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That **** was ****ing painful reading I tell you, you was like 1+1=2 and they were like, no what do u mean? Why cant 1+1=3, we have done nothing wrong! Allmost makes me wish for a kind of sollipsism to be true just so that those people can be written of as zombies.

But Hippie they discussed it after the vote. Who cares if you know, they already voted???

 

[tekkie]

LOL I argued with morons for pages over the Fox thing and everyone called me names

i don't hate you; here's an otter in a boot that'll cheer you up :D

isnt this the matchup chart thread? is there ever going to be a new one?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Were working on it, shouldnt be too much longer now.

 

[Ishiey]

I believe we're aiming for a December release, probably around the second week. Right when finals start, whoopee... X_x

 

[Ussi]

Right before Apex

/proreleasedate

 

[da K.I.D.]

I would rather we wait till after apex too. but thats just me. and im only a consultant.

 

[Ishiey]

I honestly agree, but blah. Too lazy to articulate my thoughts further than that lol, and we've already done a bunch of work so too late now, kinda.

 

[Laem]

Why wait till after APEX? So you can change a MU based on one hyped set ?

 

[tekkie]

if you're releasing it around a stressful time i can post more cute pictures to keep you all motivated <3

 

[da K.I.D.]

Apex will have some of the best player in the world and pretty much every character in the game will be represented to some extent so that might be one of the very few times you get to see a high level Luigi vs pit match or some thing of that nature with lesser played characters. to more accurate analyse certain matchups.