Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I still think looking worldwide is a bad idea as using everything for a basis, the US has some characters whom are better than any main in any other country, MK, Lucario, Sonic, etc. Other countries have Pit, Fox, Marth and co placing higher. Why does it happen? Who knows.

For Lucario, he is non existent in Europe no one playing him well outside of people trying anubis in doubles. So it's no wonder people think he isn't that great there.

Japan? Ken and 9B if he plays him? So just 9B it seems.

America has had all whom have placed high in Brawl's career, Azen, Lee, Trela, Junebug, Fonz, and co.

Best that can compete with that as a maybe is 9B.

Reason I put Snake as a -1 is because a lot of players seem to favor that ratio among both people who play the characters, Trela is the best at the MU and he thinks when he play it at his level it is a -1.

Personally I hate the MU and think it can very well be a -2 or rather it should since it competes with MK for worst MU.

I made my list with the notion of not only what I thought along with what people whom are better than me have stated and said about those MUs. From not only Luc's standpoint but the opposing character's as well, Granted Marth and G&W aren't and a lot of MKs think the Luc MU is only a -1 for Luc but oh well.

Some countries are better at some characters, it happens since metagames are different and people play characters better or worse for some reason.

 

[Steam]

Honestly... if lucarios put in as much work as trela does/did for the snake matchup in other matchups like D3/fox... they'd all be evenish too... A lot of matchups depend on what the players of the characters focus on when improving... because honestly MK is a -3 if lucarios don't put hella effort into that matchup.

 

[Shaya]

^ the most redundant post of the day award goes to~

Now I can be all like "Marth beats everybody, just our mains haven't been putting in the work required so it look likes an even match up"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Some MUs will always be bad MUs no matter what no matter how much you practice.

Marth I think has hit that point though I fully admit I am biased since I enjoy playing that MU and feel confortable in it, so my word is a gain of salt on that note.

Fox could be even someday, maybe.

Snake, D3, MK, Nah.

 

[Steam]

^ the most redundant post of the day award goes to~

Now I can be all like "Marth beats everybody, just our mains haven't been putting in the work required so it look likes an even match up"

what I said = matchups change as players of a character progress a matchup

not

You can theorycraft ratios to whatever you want this way...

though "progressing a matchup" could be attributed to the player as part of their skill since the characters themselves are static... in which case MK would need a ton more +3 matchups.

 

[Shaya]

I know exactly what you said. And no, what I said doesn't mean I can theorycraft ratios to whatever I want.

 

[Delta-cod]

Seriously Delta >.>

You can't make claims like that with the apparent weaknesses for you character in the mu just because you actively practice the mu and the people you beat haven't.

You're part of my tournament result backing, meaning that, in tournament play, Yoshi (me, anyways) has a good record against Marth. Why was it listed as a -2 in the first place? Because Marth's typical zoning is too good against Yoshi? If so, why am I able to beat EVERY Marth I play? It doesn't require a different playstyle in that case. Am I that much better? Or am I actually aware of how Yoshi is able to play the footsie game with Marth and how he can penetrate his zone?

Also, I go even with the people I regularly practice with, so that's even MORE data to suggest an even MU. I simply can't list it because the matches are, well, practice, and they're not part of a tournament record.

Which is why I still stand by my statement... Who actually even studies the Yoshi MU?
That's the thing with low tiers/most mid tier characters. Since they're Lower in the list, they have to read up on anything that's above them if they bother too.
While high tier mains almost never expect to meet them in bracket so you focus more on MU's starting from Peach and up. Anything below her noone bothers with, Maybe people trying to learn the Sonic MU but that's about it...

This is applicable against lower tiered character match ups that require alternate playstyles from the high tier for the advantage to be shown. But the basic reasoning for Marth beating Yoshi is "Marth's zoning is too hard for Yoshi to beat reliably", meaning that it shouldn't be that difficult for a Marth player to set up a proper zone and wall Yoshi out, right?

Also, this whole "I don't know the Yoshi MU" excuse is losing its validity. There are PLENTY of notable Yoshi mains across the US, many of which are pretty strong regional threats. Polt, me, YOSH, Firefly, Hades, Raptor, even Slush and Gashi can make their own cases. This encompasses A LARGE variety of regions. Canada, Texas/FL, NJ/NY, AZ, Utah, etc. etc. Yoshi isn't exactly an obscure character anymore. He's got plenty of rep. People are (well, should be, anyways) familiar with him at this point, especially considering that there's a solid Yoshi in nearly EVERY region.

 

[-LzR-]

Yoshi would be awesome with a real shield. Dat usmash and uair OoS :S
But he is still awesome.

 

[Cassio]

"Marth beats everybody, just our mains haven't been putting in the work required so it look likes an even match up"

In spite of the sarcasm theres that faintest hint of truth mostly all players have about their character . I guess if it wasnt there we'd all drop our mains for diddy.

Steam I think its true in particular for the more versatile characters (i.e. top tier minus oli/ics + a few others) that its very possible to overcome disadvantages. Sort of like what Metaknight is capable of doing to any MU with a hint of difficulty, though for most characters its a more difficult process since MK is the most versatile character. I think its still fair to label disadvantages as disadvantages in spite of this. Such versatility isnt all that easy to quantify and is a missing gap in any given MU chart.

Also I think using data from other countries metagames is fine as long as appropriate context is used. Having even minimal interaction opens that first massive door for comparison.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth is so bad against mid and low tiers.

 

[Steam]

Also, this whole "I don't know the Yoshi MU" excuse is losing its validity. There are PLENTY of notable Yoshi mains across the US, many of which are pretty strong regional threats. Polt, me, YOSH, Firefly, Hades, Raptor, even Slush and Gashi can make their own cases. This encompasses A LARGE variety of regions. Canada, Texas/FL, NJ/NY, AZ, Utah, etc. etc. Yoshi isn't exactly an obscure character anymore. He's got plenty of rep. People are (well, should be, anyways) familiar with him at this point, especially considering that there's a solid Yoshi in nearly EVERY region.

A yoshi named soapy took 5th at the last CO tourney

@cassio- yeah that actually makes a lot of sense, it's why Lucario has equalish results to like GW despite GW being significantly better on paper. and probaby why and why kirby/D3/GW/RoB fell so much over time. lack of versatility led to inability to adapt in MUs, meaning the characters got more or less "solved".

 

[Browny]

dat 2008 paper

getting kinda yellow and torn

 

[Doc King]

Yoshi would be awesome with a real shield. Dat usmash and uair OoS :S
But he is still awesome.

Yoshi is alright, but he's not awesome. He has some strengths like his amazing air speed, good projectile, and air release combos. Although he suffers from having a huge hurtbox and being heavy which makes chaingrabs really severe on him like D3 having a dash dance pivot grab infinite (NO FREAKING SLOPES, FLATS!) and Falco having like 7 down throws on Yoshi.

 

[-LzR-]

Yoshi is better than d3 without cgs

 

[Doc King]

Yoshi is better than d3 without cgs

Who cares. The unity ruleset has chaingrabs legal and no one is considering banning them.

D3>Yoshi

The only good character Yoshi beats is the climbers. D3 beats Wario, Lucario, Snake, and Marth.

 

[_Kadaj_]

You're part of my tournament result backing, meaning that, in tournament play, Yoshi (me, anyways) has a good record against Marth. Why was it listed as a -2 in the first place? Because Marth's typical zoning is too good against Yoshi? If so, why am I able to beat EVERY Marth I play? It doesn't require a different playstyle in that case. Am I that much better? Or am I actually aware of how Yoshi is able to play the footsie game with Marth and how he can penetrate his zone?

Also, I go even with the people I regularly practice with, so that's even MORE data to suggest an even MU. I simply can't list it because the matches are, well, practice, and they're not part of a tournament record.

You have to be joking me dude, for starters like I said at first you ACTIVELY practice the match up against the said character. You going even with the two people you named only further shows my point, they aren't bad players by any means at all. But I would go as far as to say that they are however of a bit of lesser skill, and for you to go even with them in a match-up you seem to pride yourself in says something.

Yoshi has some ok tools at trying to get through Marth. However their effectiveness is cut in half when you just wait outside of his desired ranges, the spot dodge roll game that Yoshi's tend to try and abuse is a horrible choice in the match-up and his Pseudo or should I say Novelty combos don't really work if the person is aware of them. That's just my two cents on the subject

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi is alright, but he's not awesome. He has some strengths like his amazing air speed, good projectile, and air release combos. Although he suffers from having a huge hurtbox and being heavy which makes chaingrabs really severe on him like D3 having a dash dance pivot grab infinite (NO FREAKING SLOPES, FLATS!) and Falco having like 7 down throws on Yoshi.

I have never seen a D3 dash dance pivot grab infinite a Yoshi and until that starts becoming a regular thing it doesn't matter.

Falco may have many dthrows on us, but we have a CG on him that works forever.

You have to be joking me dude, for starters like I said at first you ACTIVELY practice the match up against the said character. You going even with the two people you named only further shows my point, they aren't bad players by any means at all. But I would go as far as to say that they are however of a bit of lesser skill, and for you to go even with them in a match-up you seem to pride yourself in says something.

Yoshi has some ok tools at trying to get through Marth. However their effectiveness is cut in half when you just wait outside of his desired ranges, the spot dodge roll game that Yoshi's tend to try and abuse is a horrible choice in the match-up and his Pseudo or should I say Novelty combos don't really work if the person is aware of them. That's just my two cents on the subject

But if I practice with them regularly, then despite the fact that they may have a little less skill than me, shouldn't I be losing a lot in a -2 MU? Pierce especially is a very intelligent player, and he knows his match ups. Shouldn't he be abusing my character and abusing my habits because he's been playing me for so long? Or is there something stopping him.

And if you feel so strongly on the matter, care for a Marth:Yoshi MM at Apex? None of this back up MK shenaniganry that has plagued our previous sets.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Marth vs Yoshi Crewbattles.
Objected to Sunciek
No decision on Malleo yet.

Let's Go.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Btw I definitely don't think that it's a -2 mu by any means haha

I'm not 100% if you thought I meant it as being a -2 mu

Marth doesn't really -2 too much of the cast as it is

I'm not really one for best of 3 or 5 sets tbh

I like to play first to win 5-10 matches, for the learning aspect. We'll definitely have more than enough time to do one of those if you wanted, imo you can't truly learn a match up in a simple set.

 

[NickRiddle]

Can I MM a Yoshi?

 

[Chuee]

Can I MM a Yoshi?

You can MM my yoshi.

 

[san.]

Yoshi very very bad !!

injustice ! !
I love Yoshi but

a very difficult game, Yoshi _ and hit hard

 

[Delta-cod]

Btw I definitely don't think that it's a -2 mu by any means haha

I'm not 100% if you thought I meant it as being a -2 mu

Marth doesn't really -2 too much of the cast as it is

I'm not really one for best of 3 or 5 sets tbh

I like to play first to win 5-10 matches, for the learning aspect. We'll definitely have more than enough time to do one of those if you wanted, imo you can't truly learn a match up in a simple set.

Hm, got me there. XD

But let's do that. It'll be fun.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yeah definitely dude.

Also I want to see Justin and Delta-cod play! Find me first before that goes down

 

[Chuee]

Yoshi very very bad !!

injustice ! !
I love Yoshi but

a very difficult game, Yoshi __ and hit hard

Thanks for the information San!

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah definitely dude.

Also I want to see Justin and Delta-cod play! Find me first before that goes down

Who's Justin? @_@

 

[da K.I.D.]

That would be NR

Contrary to the assumption most would make (I did it too) Nick Riddles real name is actually not Nick.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

mindgames irl

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yeah It's NickRiddle

 

[NickRiddle]

... My secret is out...
TO THE BAT CAVE!

 

[Delta-cod]

LMAO.

I'll play a first to ten series with ya NR. I could really use the practice. ZSS is harrrrrrrrrrrd. @_@

 

[Sinister Slush]

DSmashDSmash SideB Uair.
Goddammit I keep losing to this!

 

[Z'zgashi]

I still think looking worldwide is a bad idea as using everything for a basis, the US has some characters whom are better than any main in any other country, MK, Lucario, Sonic, etc. Other countries have Pit, Fox, Marth and co placing higher. Why does it happen? Who knows.

Because the 'hero' players from the other countries prefer different characters. I dont see whats so difficult to understand about that.

 

[Shaya]

Ima called him JustJiggles now.

 

[theunabletable]

actually I have a question.

What does the community gain by having a matchup chart, or tier list?

 

[Shaya]

Information.

 

[Flayl]

Matchup chart is easy: If your character isn't top tier, odds are you benefit from having a secondary. matchup chart let's you know who would be the best secondary.

Go further down and it tells you which matchups you should avoid playing

Matchups are also a very important point to consider when researching the validity of a character

 

[infiniteV115]

Having a standardized tier list helps to organize mid-tier and low-tier events. Without one, everyone's mid-tier and low-tier events would have different character lists.
And both the tier list and the MU chart help out players that are newer to the game.
And what Flayl said.

 

[theunabletable]

Matchup chart is easy: If you're character isn't top tier, odds are you benefit from having a secondary. matchup chart let's you know who would be the best secondary.

Go further down and it tells you which matchups you should avoid playing

Matchups are also a very important point to consider when researching the validity of a character

has anyone really decided their main based on the tier list? Like has there ever been a really new, aspiring player who was trying to decide which characters to play, and then finished his decision by looking at the matchup chart?

Like the players who would gain anything from knowing which matchups to stay away from, the ones who have stopped rapidly learning and are now more... playing to win would probably, at that point, already know for the most part what the matchups are like, right? Especially since this isn't a matchup guide, it doesn't tell you how the matchups are generally played, it just tells you what, at a top level, the matchup is like, based on the opinions of some people.

Dunno, just seems weird that we'd have a matchup chart, where the purpose is to help new players, by telling them how good each character is against each other at the highest current level of play. It just seems like the level where this chart could give you knowledge that's applicable to use, you probably know the gist of it anyways.

And both the tier list and the MU chart help out players that are newer to the game.

Doesn't the tier list like say upfront that this is based on top level play, not the level of play that newer players would be playing at haha?

dunno just seems like it serves to waste a lot of people's time, and potentially hurt newer player's mindsets more than it helps them haha

and further it never seems like the mindset everyone has in these threads is "Oh we have to get these ratios right so we can help out those new players!" I don't think anyone in this thread, or any of the incarnations of the tier list threads have ever made a post with those thoughts in mind.

I don't really care much, like it doesn't bother me that a lot of people spend their time posting about this stuff, just after a few years I've noticed how these kinds of threads aren't really useful at all (and they especially didn't help me or any of my friends at first), and how after all this time, I feel I pretty much never gained anything from ever reading a tier list thread, or posting in one for that matter.

I suppose a benefit is it makes the online community feel more alive regarding the game, but idk how much it does that or how beneficial that is.

Like getting more information is cool and all, but when I was new enough to the game that I couldn't learn what's relevant in these charts myself, I know I gained nothing from reading them, and it probably actually inhibited thoughts of experimenting and learning on my own why things are the way they are.

idk maybe I'm crazy, and we all happen to have a lot to gain making 5700 posts in a thread about character matchups at a top level, which I'd always thought to be the case, and I'm just now going crazy and regressing away from the truth

 

[Yink]

Marth is so bad against mid and low tiers.

/

No I'm just kidding though. Marth's fine imo.

@table: I don't know dude, if you have a new player that wants to get into the competitive scene and really wants to win, they'd probably want to look at the chart and see who to pick that fits them well but is still (in their opinion) viable. The chart/list shows them cutoffs.

I'd say if I were new to the game and asked for some general help on picking a character, I'd probably (besides getting the "pick who you like") would be told who is good/not that great, and that'd probably stem from this chart or the tier list itself.

Just my two cents.