Legendary Pikachu
Smash Ace
*******************************
Bomb-Cancelled D-smash (Gimp/1HKO)
Update 1.02: Audio for old vid is now in sync
Update 1.03: Added some quotes and links to other quotes under 'Practicality'
Update 1.04: Added 'PEOPLE DOING IT IN TOURNEY' quotes. They LANDED IT! ^_^. see the comments
Plan: To prepare Update Video with corrected recoveries and placements
*******************************
It was first mentioned/discovered by McDingus in the Toon Link A.T. Discussions thread and the project for advancing/testing/displaying the new AT was taken up by Fox Is Openly Deceptive, resident AT manager.
This new situational AT is similar to the d-smash incredible knockback gimp at low damages. As Fox_is_Openly_Deceptive puts it, think of the former d-smash gimp on STEROIDS and you have a very clear picture of this move.
The move is performed by doing d-smash, and having the 2nd hitbox of d-smash interrupted by a detonating bomb. Because the 2nd strike of d-smash never hits, unlike the normal d-smash gimp, the resulting knockback is a LOT farther, it is set knockback, and can be performed at ANY percent damage... even 0%. Because of its nature, the move must be performed close to the ledge (however, if you see from the video, some characters will still get killed from the 2nd arrow marker on either side of Final Destination) and land with the preferably the tip of the sword for the 'guarenteed' effects.
This new AT is so SITUATIONAL but SO potent, that about one-thirds (due to change soon) of the ENTIRE cast CANNOT survive the move (if executed correctly)--not even at 0% damage.
Quickest Most Basic Method of Execution:
1) Full hop pull bomb
2) Start falling
3) Invincibomb (bomb is dropped slightly behind you)
4) Perform d-smash as you land before the bomb explodes
5) Knick the opponent (with preferably the tip of TL's sword)
6) Falling bomb knicks Toon Link before Toon Link executes the 2nd strike of D-smash
From exhaustive initial testing, the whole entire board of characters can be separated into 3 distinct categories based on survival:
Doomed
-The victim CANNOT make it ONTO the stage with any of there recovery options.
-If Toon Link hugs the ledge, the opponent WILL NOT survive.
-1 Hit KO guarenteed if done at or before FD's 2nd arrow marker (heading towards middle of stage)
1) Mario *ultra marios can make it (says boss)* *Gonna retest... better yet (gonna try to ask boss to help test)*Look here for frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197
2) Link
3) Squirtle
4) Ivysaur
5) Shiek
6) Ganondorf
7) Ike
8) Captain Falcon
9) Fox *Lots of inquiries... leaning towards vulnerable*
10) Zero Suit Samus *Lots of inquiries...might fall under 'vulnerable'*
11) Olimar
12) Falco
13) Marth *Lots of inquiries...might fall under 'vulnerable'*-leaning towards 'doomed' still. Look here for frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197
Vulnerable
-The victim CAN make it ONTO the stage with some of there recovery options.
-If Toom Link perfectly times the hug/edgehog, the opponent CAN land on top of the stage (barely on sometimes, but still on).
-The knockback from the BCD is still severe, and those under 'vulnerable' have limited routes for recovery (since they've been thrown so far sideways and downwards by the move).
-In the video, each character under 'vulnerable' category is given a ESTIMATED survival rate based on (1) Number of recovery directions/options , (2) The effectiveness of any one recovery (covers great distance). *The percent is still a very rough estimation subject to change depending on skill*
1) DK
2) Ness
3) Lucario *percent pending for increase*
4) Ice Climbers *percent pending for increase*
5) Toon Link
6) Lucas *percent pending for increase*
7) Peach *percent pending for increase*
8) G&W *percent pending for increase*
9) Luigi *percent pending for increase*
10) Wario--pretty high originally but *percent pending for increase and resistant if waft is available*
11) Diddy Kong--pretty high originally but *percent pending for increase*
*still under vulnerable category: Toon Link has an influence (even if it is VERY small one) in determining the victims outcome*
Resistant
-The victim is UNPHASED by the BCD. The victim can almost ALWAYS recover.
-Multi-jumpers, high recoveries, teleporting recoveries, knockback resistance, ANY recovery option that Toon Link CANNOT possibly pursue and reach before the victim land back on stage.
-Those opting for 'Resistant category' must prove that TL cannot possibly influence the victim's recovery in anyway, no matter how small OR prove that the knockback of BCD is miniscule for the victim.
Everyone not mentioned above (yes, that includes bowser and wolf). Wolf's normal jump allows wolf to cover a LOT of distance sideways and side-b will make it past TL's lethal followups. Bowser barely even gets knock back at all and can attack Toon Link sometimes before Toon Link can setup for a killing followup. Zelda's fyore's wind starts too far for TL to lethally pursue and cannot be intercepted in the middle of it. The 'resistant' category are ALL those who are UNPHASED by the BCD. Bowser and Wolf may get killed, but that's just bad recovery... but not because of the BCD's knockback necessarily.
Universal (maybe not bowser) Water 1HKO:
If Toon Link horizontally throws an opponent into a body of water using BCD, the extreme knockback of the move results in an insane 1 Hit KO almost all of the time. DI is lagged in water, and momentum cancelling is impossible.
Landing it practically?
More throughts and quotes:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396221#post8396221
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396070#post8396070
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396506#post8396506
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8398789#post8398789
***********************
The move is still in its INFANCY. Only time will truly confirm the lists and whether this AT can revolutionize Toon Link's metagame.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dI_GS3u0gE
^Video above will be updated with new footage eventually detailing better recoveries and updated percentages/category placement.
AUDIO IS NOW IN SYNC AT END... *I fixed it*
(I may re-encode the video in better quality in the near future)
Hope you enjoy!
Edit:
*********************************
Concerns Raised
*********************************
For those in RED, reason why I didn't elaborate MK, kirby, and Pika is that I ALREADY stated that they are NOT affected by the move... why waste more time confirming that BCD doesn't work against those characters.
You guys are exactly right. I DID take that into account, so that's why all "those people" are under 'vulnerable'. I am aware that there are MANY cases that a character CAN recover... those under 'vulnerable' are all LOOSELY up there (they are NOT a 'guarenteed' kill by 'vulnerable's strict definition, so QUIT worrying). Percents are shown, but as is the case for every statistic, THERE IS ROOM FOR EXCEPTIONS--percents are loose estimations anyway but will be faithfully updated or removed altogether upon request with suggestion and documentation (not just 'lucas wavebounces', but WHERE, WHEN, how low is he doing it, will his 2nd jump reach edge/up-b safely?)
If anything, just take into heart that this move is a move that can be done at 0% damage to set up for a disadvantaged recovery--VERY far sideways and very low. Very few moves are like that in brawl and that is the MAIN focus of the video/technique's entirety. Imagine if your respective characters had a move that could do that... i am pretty sure you guys wouldn't pass the oppurtunity to EFFECTIVELY seal the kill and figure out what is guarenteed or not by your own skills/abilities.
BOTTOM LINE: There are people who can get easily killed, there are some who CAN survive (so you don't have to continuely bash the thread/me about survival oppurtunities for those who have been stated 'CAN SURVIVE!'.... youtube vids can only be like 10 mins (mine bordered 9:40--i can't put every single amazin' recovery in the footage).
Note to any SKILLED Mains: If any of you are so adamantly convinced that your character's potential is SO misrepresented in the video (and for that... I formally apologize), please send me a replay of you epicly recovering from the attack and another of you getting honestly follow-up-mindgamed-gimped by this attack. This would HIGHLY be appreciated and would expedite the Update vid process. Of course you will be credited on the page of the character. Let all of youtube witness that you have survived a 'seemingly' unsurvivable attack... lol. Thank you again.
My MAIN concern right now are those disputed under DOOMED. Inquiries involve ZSS, Mario, Fox, and Marth as of right now. I will test them for sure and update accordingly. I am aware and testing the concerns you guys brought up--I firmly agree that it is an injustice to post those mentioned under doomed if indeed they are not. If indeed they cannot survive because of inability to sweetspot the edge, they will still remain under DOOMED.
The main argument for the 'doomed' category above is that your survival depends solely on toon link messing up the edgehog (whether he doesn't refresh it). The true factor for placement in vulnerable is the ability to LAND ONTO the stage (so even if TOON LINK edgehogs/tether-gimps PERFECTLY, the victim can STILL land on the stage). Because of this, by definition, Marth is still 'likely' to remain in doomed, and ZSS may be moved towards vulnerable (footstool will clearly land her on the stage).
The video WILL be updated eventually
Bomb-Cancelled D-smash (Gimp/1HKO)
Update 1.02: Audio for old vid is now in sync
Update 1.03: Added some quotes and links to other quotes under 'Practicality'
Update 1.04: Added 'PEOPLE DOING IT IN TOURNEY' quotes. They LANDED IT! ^_^. see the comments
Plan: To prepare Update Video with corrected recoveries and placements
*******************************
It was first mentioned/discovered by McDingus in the Toon Link A.T. Discussions thread and the project for advancing/testing/displaying the new AT was taken up by Fox Is Openly Deceptive, resident AT manager.
This new situational AT is similar to the d-smash incredible knockback gimp at low damages. As Fox_is_Openly_Deceptive puts it, think of the former d-smash gimp on STEROIDS and you have a very clear picture of this move.
The move is performed by doing d-smash, and having the 2nd hitbox of d-smash interrupted by a detonating bomb. Because the 2nd strike of d-smash never hits, unlike the normal d-smash gimp, the resulting knockback is a LOT farther, it is set knockback, and can be performed at ANY percent damage... even 0%. Because of its nature, the move must be performed close to the ledge (however, if you see from the video, some characters will still get killed from the 2nd arrow marker on either side of Final Destination) and land with the preferably the tip of the sword for the 'guarenteed' effects.
This new AT is so SITUATIONAL but SO potent, that about one-thirds (due to change soon) of the ENTIRE cast CANNOT survive the move (if executed correctly)--not even at 0% damage.
Quickest Most Basic Method of Execution:
1) Full hop pull bomb
2) Start falling
3) Invincibomb (bomb is dropped slightly behind you)
4) Perform d-smash as you land before the bomb explodes
5) Knick the opponent (with preferably the tip of TL's sword)
6) Falling bomb knicks Toon Link before Toon Link executes the 2nd strike of D-smash
From exhaustive initial testing, the whole entire board of characters can be separated into 3 distinct categories based on survival:
Doomed
-The victim CANNOT make it ONTO the stage with any of there recovery options.
-If Toon Link hugs the ledge, the opponent WILL NOT survive.
-1 Hit KO guarenteed if done at or before FD's 2nd arrow marker (heading towards middle of stage)
1) Mario *ultra marios can make it (says boss)* *Gonna retest... better yet (gonna try to ask boss to help test)*Look here for frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197
2) Link
3) Squirtle
4) Ivysaur
5) Shiek
6) Ganondorf
7) Ike
8) Captain Falcon
9) Fox *Lots of inquiries... leaning towards vulnerable*
10) Zero Suit Samus *Lots of inquiries...might fall under 'vulnerable'*
11) Olimar
12) Falco
13) Marth *Lots of inquiries...might fall under 'vulnerable'*-leaning towards 'doomed' still. Look here for frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197
Vulnerable
-The victim CAN make it ONTO the stage with some of there recovery options.
-If Toom Link perfectly times the hug/edgehog, the opponent CAN land on top of the stage (barely on sometimes, but still on).
-The knockback from the BCD is still severe, and those under 'vulnerable' have limited routes for recovery (since they've been thrown so far sideways and downwards by the move).
-In the video, each character under 'vulnerable' category is given a ESTIMATED survival rate based on (1) Number of recovery directions/options , (2) The effectiveness of any one recovery (covers great distance). *The percent is still a very rough estimation subject to change depending on skill*
1) DK
2) Ness
3) Lucario *percent pending for increase*
4) Ice Climbers *percent pending for increase*
5) Toon Link
6) Lucas *percent pending for increase*
7) Peach *percent pending for increase*
8) G&W *percent pending for increase*
9) Luigi *percent pending for increase*
10) Wario--pretty high originally but *percent pending for increase and resistant if waft is available*
11) Diddy Kong--pretty high originally but *percent pending for increase*
*still under vulnerable category: Toon Link has an influence (even if it is VERY small one) in determining the victims outcome*
Resistant
-The victim is UNPHASED by the BCD. The victim can almost ALWAYS recover.
-Multi-jumpers, high recoveries, teleporting recoveries, knockback resistance, ANY recovery option that Toon Link CANNOT possibly pursue and reach before the victim land back on stage.
-Those opting for 'Resistant category' must prove that TL cannot possibly influence the victim's recovery in anyway, no matter how small OR prove that the knockback of BCD is miniscule for the victim.
Everyone not mentioned above (yes, that includes bowser and wolf). Wolf's normal jump allows wolf to cover a LOT of distance sideways and side-b will make it past TL's lethal followups. Bowser barely even gets knock back at all and can attack Toon Link sometimes before Toon Link can setup for a killing followup. Zelda's fyore's wind starts too far for TL to lethally pursue and cannot be intercepted in the middle of it. The 'resistant' category are ALL those who are UNPHASED by the BCD. Bowser and Wolf may get killed, but that's just bad recovery... but not because of the BCD's knockback necessarily.
Universal (maybe not bowser) Water 1HKO:
If Toon Link horizontally throws an opponent into a body of water using BCD, the extreme knockback of the move results in an insane 1 Hit KO almost all of the time. DI is lagged in water, and momentum cancelling is impossible.
Landing it practically?
PEOPLE LANDING IT ALREADY in TOURNEY?!Don't worry. Though awesome, it'll still be a ***** to pull off.
So for reactions:
Falco rushed his recovery (even though it wasn't the full version) and I just spotdodged his phantasm and d-smashed again for the under-20% version. No kill, but extra 30-40 damage from it all.
ICs took a long time to respond and went for the side-b recovery and failed. He definitely got frustrated by it and wasn't expecting it, and the next stock he messed up the chaingrab twice since he was suddenly down a stock.
G&W was in the water so he had no chance, but afterwards turned to me and basically said "wtf"
Oli said something about "TL's dsmash ***** olimar, but usually I can get back, don't know what happened there." So I had to explain to him about the bcdg.
All in all, people definitely don't see it coming if you do it right, and that gives them a few extra frames of mental hitstun which can get them to at least rush things and screw up a little
^^take these wise quotes for whatever its worth. ^_^. May the masters survive the attack, may the masters land and finish the attack.The problem with that is people will expect it, and that will start quick.
So now you guys need to develop reliable set-ups for it, stuff that works when your opponent expects it, or at the very least, forces your opponent to go for an alternative that advantages you.
More throughts and quotes:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396221#post8396221
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396070#post8396070
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396506#post8396506
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8398789#post8398789
There are lots of situational techs done regularly during a match. Kirby's kirbicide > footstool > dair > footstool is situational (the opponent has to be near the ledge and not expect it to happen), yet it's one of Kirby's best 1HKO techs. Diddy's upB on bananas that were thrown by the opponent is situational (you have to be falling on top of one), but if you do it it yields good results (two flying projectiles that go out of the camera, making it hard to avoid them).
This is yet another one of those techs, and the good thing is that it's relatively easy to do: just jump, drop a bomb, and dsmash from the right distance. A little practice will probably make it so that you barely ever miss it, and in most cases can turn a game around, literally... Plus, TL can create this situation no problem: opponents have to approach him anyways, since he's a projectile-based character. Once opponents get near, TL's usually go for sh > airdodge > zair, and now they have sh > iBomb > dsmash to mix it up (and bait a shield drop when the opponent realizes TL isn't zairing, and decides to run in for grabs or quick attacks).
And DTL, even if it can be teched, it's exactly the same as the "splat" from the dthrow chain in Pictochat and other such stages: very hard to get the tech timing down, and even if you master it, it's hard reacting in time... You literally have around 10 (or less) frames to realize he's about to dsmash you and remember the timing for the tech. So, it's not really an end-all solution to the tech.
I think this general idea is really cool and potentially really powerful, but you're probably limiting it by just looking for that (admittedly stylish) kill trick. Here's my question. If performed optimally, what is the "recovery time" for Toon Link? I mean, how long are you helpless (from the bomb hitstun) until you can airdodge? It doesn't look long at all; I'm thinking if you get smart with this you could do stuff like approach with it. If you hit, you get a good position and hurt them noticeably more than the bomb hurt you. If you fail (hit their shield with the dsmash first hit), you take fairly meager damage from your own bomb and are still in a good position. I think something like that is the direction that's good to go with this. It doesn't have to be just dsmash you go for with this either; I'd explore which of Toon Link's other moves can have similar uses.
I don't think anyone else can reliably interrupt their own moves with a self-damaging attack, but this could be a really cool direction for Link and Toon Link. I just really suggest exploring more than that one narrow application; you're looking at a general cancel to all of your moves which is 100% independent of your opponent's actions (and hence potentially very powerful).
If a trick is only useful when the opponent doesn't know about it, it's a bad trick. Good characters using good techniques can perform well even when the opponent understands them, and posting about your techniques in public will help bring in a lot of perspectives so you can look for wider applications and understand the counters that exist. The "metagame" of that trick advances, and assuming the trick is actually useful (which I suspect this one is), that only helps the mains of the character(s) who can perform it.
My brother hit me with the move twice now (different battles). Since I was pikachu, I lived through it, tho one thing I did find out:
Even though I knew it existed, as hard as it actually is to land, I definitely had a major WTF moment--like NO freakin' joke. Though I said I recovered (and i definitely wasn't going to die like that, personally ^_^), I defintely got 30+ damage each time he did it cuz of my surprise... and the re-tethers (can't depend on sweetspot QaC) and 2 bomb's thrown up in the air (+projectiles) are not the best situations to return to, especially at a point where you are mainly just focusing on staying ALIVE.
The pressure sort of feels like a d-smash from MK when he knicks you before you land (and you don't have jumps left), tho in BCD's case you still have a second jump (but the 2nd jump is almost null anyway in w/that low knockback). The fact that TL has enough freedom to setup ANYTHING or just screw around as the victim is spending a good 5+ full seconds trying to live is disconcerning.
My thoughts on the move BCD.... even if the move phases out of its original usefullness (much like how pikachu's d-smash is no longer feared as much) using it at the right time to annoy/frustrate/and confuse really determines the rest of the match sometimes especially if you're on a stage like frigate orpheon (my CP as a pikachu sometimes) O_O.
***********************
The move is still in its INFANCY. Only time will truly confirm the lists and whether this AT can revolutionize Toon Link's metagame.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dI_GS3u0gE
^Video above will be updated with new footage eventually detailing better recoveries and updated percentages/category placement.
AUDIO IS NOW IN SYNC AT END... *I fixed it*
(I may re-encode the video in better quality in the near future)
Hope you enjoy!
Edit:
*********************************
Concerns Raised
*********************************
TL needs to predict how Lucario is going to exactly approach the stage or he risks killing himself.
This is an amazing find, even though it is situational and requires you to read your opponent extremely well in some cases.
i didnt see pikachus skull bash being used, nor kirbys hammer
i also didnt see MK use Drill rush, Shuttle Loop, Dimensional cape
i also did not see ZSS using UP+B, Side+b
Take your time and do the research. Because im pretty sure those that are most effected by this move have more options. Example: Ivysaur can use her razor leaf to DI towards the stage, and Marth can sword dance stall then recover.
Zero Suit Samus can hop off your head when you are edgehogging with her down B.
"Lucas could recover with his horizontal glitches."
My Character: "Advanced Technique"
Anyone else's character "Glitch"
For those in RED, reason why I didn't elaborate MK, kirby, and Pika is that I ALREADY stated that they are NOT affected by the move... why waste more time confirming that BCD doesn't work against those characters.
You guys are exactly right. I DID take that into account, so that's why all "those people" are under 'vulnerable'. I am aware that there are MANY cases that a character CAN recover... those under 'vulnerable' are all LOOSELY up there (they are NOT a 'guarenteed' kill by 'vulnerable's strict definition, so QUIT worrying). Percents are shown, but as is the case for every statistic, THERE IS ROOM FOR EXCEPTIONS--percents are loose estimations anyway but will be faithfully updated or removed altogether upon request with suggestion and documentation (not just 'lucas wavebounces', but WHERE, WHEN, how low is he doing it, will his 2nd jump reach edge/up-b safely?)
If anything, just take into heart that this move is a move that can be done at 0% damage to set up for a disadvantaged recovery--VERY far sideways and very low. Very few moves are like that in brawl and that is the MAIN focus of the video/technique's entirety. Imagine if your respective characters had a move that could do that... i am pretty sure you guys wouldn't pass the oppurtunity to EFFECTIVELY seal the kill and figure out what is guarenteed or not by your own skills/abilities.
BOTTOM LINE: There are people who can get easily killed, there are some who CAN survive (so you don't have to continuely bash the thread/me about survival oppurtunities for those who have been stated 'CAN SURVIVE!'.... youtube vids can only be like 10 mins (mine bordered 9:40--i can't put every single amazin' recovery in the footage).
Note to any SKILLED Mains: If any of you are so adamantly convinced that your character's potential is SO misrepresented in the video (and for that... I formally apologize), please send me a replay of you epicly recovering from the attack and another of you getting honestly follow-up-mindgamed-gimped by this attack. This would HIGHLY be appreciated and would expedite the Update vid process. Of course you will be credited on the page of the character. Let all of youtube witness that you have survived a 'seemingly' unsurvivable attack... lol. Thank you again.
My MAIN concern right now are those disputed under DOOMED. Inquiries involve ZSS, Mario, Fox, and Marth as of right now. I will test them for sure and update accordingly. I am aware and testing the concerns you guys brought up--I firmly agree that it is an injustice to post those mentioned under doomed if indeed they are not. If indeed they cannot survive because of inability to sweetspot the edge, they will still remain under DOOMED.
The main argument for the 'doomed' category above is that your survival depends solely on toon link messing up the edgehog (whether he doesn't refresh it). The true factor for placement in vulnerable is the ability to LAND ONTO the stage (so even if TOON LINK edgehogs/tether-gimps PERFECTLY, the victim can STILL land on the stage). Because of this, by definition, Marth is still 'likely' to remain in doomed, and ZSS may be moved towards vulnerable (footstool will clearly land her on the stage).
The video WILL be updated eventually