TL's NEW AT: 1 Hit KO on 1/3rd of Cast! *courtesy of McDingus and FioD*

[professor mgw]

Is it possible to SH -> bomb pull -> ibomb -> Dsmash?

Yeah

It depends how fast u r with button pressing. A SH only provides little time 4 u to ibomb.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

err...snake's mines disappear when he dies... must of been a c4.(unless he was still flying out of the screen)

MAN! He was still flying off screen.... That means that I got super situational killed. Lucky punk (towards my brother, Arc-thefallen-). I wonder if he did it on purpose knowing that... :/....

Yep u can do SH>bomb pull>bomb drop>dsmash. It needs timing tho (isnt THAT hard) and the only kinda hard part is that sometimes dtilt comes out instead of dsmash because of Sakurai's dumb cstick tilts on landing. >_>

TL requires tech skill lololol. Now I have to learn the exact timing of the landing into dsmash :/. I sometimes explode before the dsmash, do dtilt landing or I buffer way too soon >_>. *keeps trying*

Oh, yea we fiddled for like 3 minutes to get that SH BCD footage, however, it was the 'flame version' where the opponent isn't sent that far. It is very possible to do the non-flame version (full power) if you get the timing--try it in slo-mo training... you can nail the full version every time. My brother found out something on the side: f anyone finds the timing kind of tight, try z-dropping and pivoting the d-smash. Since the pivot input is there as you land, the chances of doing d-tilt by accident will decrease a little (similar to the down input of jab-cancelling) and since its a buffer (occurs on the first frame possible), the d-smash will almost always land a clean, full BCD if it does come out. Although this approach can guarentee a more successful BCD on SH, it does require you to be facing/SH facing away from the opponent since it's a pivot D-smash. The good thing is that the z-drop bomb is clearly away from the opponent (so it doesn't get interrupted) and it adds more to TL's retreating defensive (or b-air O_O) game. Both can work and the more tech-savvy TL can take advantage of the first one better (although the problem of the opponent running into the bomb is more likely in the first one (bomb is sorta in front of you) without i-bombing. Doing the i-bomb SH version... i haven't tested that as much yet (i need by brother's TL tech skills for that--i can't test right now :'( ).

Actually, LegendaryPikachu told me a while ago, that Arc reckons it's possible to do a SH, Bomb Pull, Z-drop (Not Invincibomb), D-smash but you have to be like frame perfect. I haven't actually tested this myself, but maybe LP can confirm?

Edit: Yeah that's what he does @ 8:20. I'm guessing it works because the Bomb is still 'active' for that split second but I can't really see. Good old white aura.

Wow! So that would make it the fastest way to perform it so far.

So now instead of a SH Bomb Pull Quickdraw, if we think they are to close and might punish, we can whip this out instead. This is already developing quite quickly. The more stuff like this we know, the less situational it is, and the more useful it becomes. (Thanks for confirming TLMS.)

Actually, a SH bomb pull > throw into an opponents sheild (bomb pops up) > jab-cancells into BCD when the bomb lands might be the fastest practical offensive take on the BCD. We'll see as time goes by.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

My brother found out something on the side: f anyone finds the timing kind of tight, try z-dropping and pivoting the d-smash. Since the pivot input is there as you land, the chances of doing d-tilt by accident will decrease a little (similar to the down input of jab-cancelling) and since its a buffer (occurs on the first frame possible), the d-smash will almost always land a clean, full BCD if it does come out. Although this approach can guarentee a more successful BCD on SH, it does require you to be facing/SH facing away from the opponent since it's a pivot D-smash. The good thing is that the z-drop bomb is clearly away from the opponent (so it doesn't get interrupted) and it adds more to TL's retreating defensive (or b-air O_O) game.

That sounds pretty darn hard to pull off. I'll give it a go though because it sounds like one of the best ways to perform this so far.
I can't wait to see vids of the pros pulling this sorta thing off in tourneys. People will take more notice then.

Actually, a SH bomb pull > throw into an opponents sheild (bomb pops up) > jab-cancells into BCD when the bomb lands might be the fastest practical offensive take on the BCD. We'll see as time goes by.

Other then relying on the bomb hitting their shield, I'm loving this idea. Shield pressure to BCD sounds so possible to pull off as well.
When you update the vid, be sure to feature things like this. Maybe what you could do to save time, would be to show every character (like you did) but show different ways to perform it while you are using it on all the characters (Two birds with one stone). This would include every possible way that we have thought of, up until that point. At least this way, it will show the flexibility of this move.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

consider it done :D

 

[Popcornio]

Since the area I play at mainly plays BBrawl, do you know if the angle changes to the Tink's D-Smash would make this better/worse?

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Since the area I play at mainly plays BBrawl, do you know if the angle changes to the Tink's D-Smash would make this better/worse?

you could test this out yourself.... I don't have bBrawl at the moment.

 

[Popcornio]

you could test this out yourself.... I don't have bBrawl at the moment.

I would but I even with all of my practicing I can't manage to pull it off in vBrawl just yet.

The reason I wanted to know is because if it works in BBrawl, I'd keep practicing it until I can do it very well.

 

[WindMajor]

I haven't thought of BBrawl yet...

I know that in BBrawl they changed the F-Smash and the D-Smash so that they would always connect. I'm not sure if I still have BBrawl saved on my SD card from 2 months ago but if I do, I'll test it out.

Tomorrow.

 

[TLMarth]

I particularly like the edge hop catch to Dsmash gimp

 

[NeoTLkid]

i just love the technique, i can get sh version 90% of the time but, my friends main characters who are immune to it
D=<
it's a funny moment though

 

[copacetic]

Pulled it off 4 times at yesterday's tournament. Once you start doing it naturally you can get it once every set or so, and it's definitely clutch.

 

[Mota]

Good to have some confirmation that it can actually be pulled off in a real match.

fear us >=D

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

You pulled it off 4 times, but how many times did it kill? Still it's always good to hear that this is very possible to pull off in a real match.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

One good thing to note... no matter how he pulls it off, near a walkoff or near water is an situational 0% KO ^_^.

 

[copacetic]

1 kill on ICs, 1 kill at delfino on a G&W, and I messed up and got a flame version on a falco.

And I managed to get it once in friendlies against an olimar. And they were good players too, the falco and oli are on the PR for new england, so it's not something that will just work on scrubs.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That's sweet! Did you save the replay? So what did the opponents say, you know, what was they're reaction. Was it like, WTF?!? Did they even recover properly because of mental hitstun XD.

 

[WindMajor]

Sounds sick! Where's Sasuke? Does this mean our metagame is slowly evolving?

 

[Mota]

Metagame evolving? Sounds like it.

Santi quits for a few months, enters a tournament and still gets 3rd. Hasn't changed for the last 6 months haha.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

1 kill on ICs, 1 kill at delfino on a G&W, and I messed up and got a flame version on a falco.

And I managed to get it once in friendlies against an olimar. And they were good players too, the falco and oli are on the PR for new england, so it's not something that will just work on scrubs.

If you got replays/footage.... SEND IT TO ME! T_T

I'll update the AT vid with footage and add some marvelous credits to you.

 

[copacetic]

Sorry no vids, if I pull any off this weekend at MM17 I'll be sure to save them.

So for reactions:

Falco rushed his recovery (even though it wasn't the full version) and I just spotdodged his phantasm and d-smashed again for the under-20% version. No kill, but extra 30-40 damage from it all.

ICs took a long time to respond and went for the side-b recovery and failed. He definitely got frustrated by it and wasn't expecting it, and the next stock he messed up the chaingrab twice since he was suddenly down a stock.

G&W was in the water so he had no chance, but afterwards turned to me and basically said "wtf"

Oli said something about "TL's dsmash ***** olimar, but usually I can get back, don't know what happened there." So I had to explain to him about the bcdg.

All in all, people definitely don't see it coming if you do it right, and that gives them a few extra frames of mental hitstun which can get them to at least rush things and screw up a little

 

[adumbrodeus]

The problem with that is people will expect it, and that will start quick.


So now you guys need to develop reliable set-ups for it, stuff that works when your opponent expects it, or at the very least, forces your opponent to go for an alternative that advantages you.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The problem with that is people will expect it, and that will start quick.


So now you guys need to develop reliable set-ups for it, stuff that works when your opponent expects it, or at the very least, forces your opponent to go for an alternative that advantages you.

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, then we'll turn around and burn the bridge. For now, people still don't expect it let alone know what it is. So until then, I say we destroy as many poor unsuspecting opponents as we can.

 

[Mota]

^Bwhaha I like it.

People will take a while to catch on, I give it 2 months, 4 months tops lol.
The top players will catch on relatively quick, even quicker if they're hit by it >_<, although I guess that goes for everyone.

Even when people realise BCD is a real threat, I don't think it'll be to hard to land since they have to approach us eventually (unless you're falco or something), regardless of whether or not we have a bomb in hand or air, which is 20-45% of the time.
they'll just react swifter offstage and have a predetermined method of recovering.

At the moment people will lose maybe half a moment just to comprehend what the pho just happened before they move to recover, the longer they wait, the less chance they have of recover. Yay!

As for set-ups, that's tough. We have a couple set-ups, but they're situational. I don't believe there's a guaranteed way or set-up of landing BCD, we just keep an eye out for an opening or we predict their movements and punish.
I like the ledge one, since our victim will most likely be close to the ledge, prime position.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

We not only have different set ups that they'll need to look out for, but if it's predicted, we have bail out options that can be used to punish people who try to avoid it. I see no problem with people starting to expect it, it just means that we can use their fear against them. It's a win win situation.

 

[Sosuke]

I promise you that only like, 1-2% (if even) of high level competitive players will be looking out for this. In a month or two, no one will be looking for this.

 

[Lobos]

After playing radori last night this move is legit but more so in teams. It's almost impossible to pull off in 1v1s since I don't see anyone getting hit by the dsmash or getting close to a TL to begin with. Teams you can pull off with all the chaos happening.

edit: Atleast any pros lol anyone else will probably run into it. Also people know about this, don't expect people to not know just because they don't post. Just how people know about the dsmash gimp at low percent people will try to shield/avoid getting hit by a dsmash at the edge......or atleast try to.

 

[adumbrodeus]

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, then we'll turn around and burn the bridge. For now, people still don't expect it let alone know what it is. So until then, I say we destroy as many poor unsuspecting opponents as we can.

But developing a variety of ways to utilize it as well as other options out of it just make it better at dealing with unsuspecting opponents now, and make it usable when people do expect it, improving your metagame significantly.


So, you wanna cross this bridge now, and burn it, and poor salt on the surrounding area.

Even when people realise BCD is a real threat, I don't think it'll be to hard to land since they have to approach us eventually (unless you're falco or something), regardless of whether or not we have a bomb in hand or air, which is 20-45% of the time.
they'll just react swifter offstage and have a predetermined method of recovering.

The concern is more that they'll shield on reaction or control the airspace that's required for execution.


For example, the current state of the tech doesn't effect marth at all, barely even if he doesn't know to expect it, because he'll be zoning that location viciously, which means you'll get hit and probably juggled.

We not only have different set ups that they'll need to look out for, but if it's predicted, we have bail out options that can be used to punish people who try to avoid it. I see no problem with people starting to expect it, it just means that we can use their fear against them. It's a win win situation.

Wasn't that basically what I said?

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

But developing a variety of ways to utilize it as well as other options out of it just make it better at dealing with unsuspecting opponents now, and make it usable when people do expect it, improving your metagame significantly.


1) So, you wanna cross this bridge now, and burn it, and poor salt on the surrounding area.




The concern is more that they'll shield on reaction or control the airspace that's required for execution.

For example, the current state of the tech doesn't effect marth at all, barely even if he doesn't know to expect it, because he'll be zoning that location viciously, which means you'll get hit and probably juggled.


2) Wasn't that basically what I said?

1) Well through the development of this thread, there have been suggested setups already and I will select post some of the more convincing setups once frames and other people's experience comes into this thread. For instance, if TL i-bombs > BCD, z-air can come out during any airdodge frame before landing. Assuming that marth does shielding or f-air zoning, if the TL airdodges the hit and spaces the distance of z-air then Marth's would get shield pressured or hit by z-air. Its a 'conservative' setup where one either accomplishes nothing, does residual damage either with landing bomb or z-air, could do a fair amount of shield crippling (especially if the opponent takes a falling z-air>d-smash), or outright completes the BCD.

TL's can also opt for an airdodge> REALLY low z-air where the hitbox doesn't even come out but instantly allows TL to shield which allows TL's to somewhat safely airdodge continuously (sort of similar to how snake's pulling out a grenade cancels his landing vulnerability if he shields on landing). So it's not like everytime TL attempts the setup the BCD, then he will severely get punishment *****, cuz the setup comes in many forms (all you need is an exploding bomb during the d-smash), and you could airdodge > shield/z-air early out of failed spacing. Most TL's use z-air zoning anyways and in some spacing situations the length of z-air will beat marth's f-air which would call for marth closing in the distance more when f-airing or dash-shield-approach more. That said, a properly placed dolphin (because of invincibility frames) would still OWN all of these setups/backouts except the really low z-air>shield... but a missed dolphin is ALWAYS a good dolphin (at least for a BCD'ing TL) ^_^.

And if you think about it, only marth in particular has vast zoning options (considering that he's a close up kind of fighter). Against most of the other cast, some of the problems with setup are or more trivial when mindgame is added along with the aforementioned setups.

2) Rest assured we HAVE BEEN and will CONTINUE to advance the setups of the move. If you've been follow some of Fox's past posts, he's been contributing to setups a lot since the making of this thread--and i will post once I have a firm group consensus of the effectiveness of setup (of course with first hand experience in tourney preferably). The next update video is hopefully going to do justice to some characters, and I hope to add in convincing setups for the BCD.

*As for copacetic, could you reveal how you "setup" the situation for the BCD's you landed, your opponent tag or an estimate of his skill, and the part of the stage you did it on? That could facilitate the setup honing process. Thanks*

I promise you that only like, 1-2% (if even) of high level competitive players will be looking out for this. In a month or two, no one will be looking for this.

From my personal experience, what sasukebowser says here does bear some truth in it. I am pretty much sure that only marths in particular would scope out the entire workings of this move (since the whole of Marth boards seem to give off a very systematic calculating aura anyways), whereas only the top 2% of the mains of any OTHER characters would keep this move in mind (at an enough level of awareness which shuts off TL's BCD attempts) when playing the matchup between TL.

We'll see how the results come in. ^_^

 

[Sosuke]

My saying that people won't know about this tech has nothing to do with the tech itself.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Update 1.04: "People landing it"

I updated the opening post with some of copacetic's findings and adumbrodeus's response.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Nice update LP.

So, you wanna cross this bridge now, and burn it, and poor salt on the surrounding area.

That's awesome. And then take a piss on the fire to put it out once most of the bridge has burned.
Btw, thanks for your concern about the move. Don't worry though, we're working on it. I still think that we should look into two very underrated bail out moves that I've mentioned previously. They are SH, Ibomb, (land) Instantly Jump and catch the Bomb with an Instant aerial and the other one is, SH, Ibomb, (land) Instantly Dash out of the way of the blast towards your opponent and, I dunno, frigin Pivot Grab them or something. The good thing about the dashing one is you have pretty much all your options and it will really throw an opponent off who is trying to predict the BCDS.

Wasn't that basically what I said?

Not exactly. You said,

The problem with that is people will expect it, and that will start quick.


So now you guys need to develop reliable set-ups for it, stuff that works when your opponent expects it, or at the very least, forces your opponent to go for an alternative that advantages you.

You were sort of implying that we didn't yet have set ups and stuff that works when our opponent expects it. And I pretty much answered you (I was also just talking to McDingus) by saying,

We not only have different set ups that they'll need to look out for, but if it's predicted, we have bail out options that can be used to punish people who try to avoid it. I see no problem with people starting to expect it, it just means that we can use their fear against them. It's a win win situation.

No worries though. Thanks again.

 

[copacetic]

Pulled it off today on a martha and it was saved on someone's wii. I'll try to find it so I can get it up here.
And again on a decent falco but that one wasn't saved.

And I feel like marth doesn't really have a chance bc it wasn't hard at all to just re-tether the ledge

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Pulled it off today on a martha and it was saved on someone's wii. I'll try to find it so I can get it up here.
And again on a decent falco but that one wasn't saved.

And I feel like marth doesn't really have a chance bc it wasn't hard at all to just re-tether the ledge

yea... i posted a frame by frame look and according to the data, TL has about 100+frames of potential invincibility if he uses up all tethers and only allows 3 frames ANYWHERE in between for marth/mario to regrab (TL is still invincible) if done perfectly. Look here for frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197


GIMME THE VID! GIMME THE REPLAY!

Also, tell me if you have any OTHER codes enabled on the wii when teh replay was saved (other than infinite replay hacks), cuz the replay file sometimes glitches if i don't set my recording to the exact same settings. When you are done finding it, PM me and i'll give you my email or something (AIM if you have it). We'll work something out.

I hope the marth wet his/her pants if that's the first time they've ever seen it (as in they've never seen the AT video... ^_^).

*speaking of marths.... The most funniest thing ever happened to me at my very first tournament in a long time (since summer break): a good marth main (who normally never talks) 'glides' behind me in a crowd and whispers, "LDPK, you're not gonna get me with the 1 hit ko.... Oh no no no... you're NOT..." deep in my ear which sent chills down my spine. The thing is... I don't even play TL O_O, which is even creepier or else he's got his facts wrong. Talk about a hardcore lurker -__-. lol

 

[Mota]

"LDPK, you're not gonna get me with the 1 hit ko.... Oh no no no... you're NOT..."

LOL! He must be a good pillow talker.
Pretty creepy indeed, would've been funny if you played him later on in the tourney. Meta-mindgames?

& Nice Copacetic, you seem to have BCD down easily.

 

[copacetic]

Well I get bored of camping so I usually play very offensively, so I tend to latch on to these close-combat techs and use them until they become natural. And in the tournament I just went to I played 2 falcos, 2 marths, and an olimar in singles, so you can see why I'd want to learn it.

Still waiting on the replay, don't know whose wii it was yet. Unfortunately it was a pretty big tournament so I might have trouble finding out

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

don't worry... i can wait ^_^

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just to save me the act of having to look around 11 pages of posts and that I have to go right now. Anyone want to answer this quesiton?

This is avoidable by DIing down and teching right?

 

[WindMajor]

You can't SDI the first hit of the Dsmash. The only way that you could possibly tech it is if you don't do it at the ledge. If there's a lot of ground to cover before you get off the stage, then it's possible that your character will just naturally fall down, and THEN you can tech it. If you do it at the ledge, there is no way you can DI down and tech.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, so what I'm about to say is a whole lot of ****.
Me and Gords were stuffing around with tech skillz and random stuff (along with some Toon ditto's, which are also ****, but that's not what I'm talking about.) and, well let me just tell you.
Bomb Pull, SH, Bomb throw (Bomb bounces off opponents shield), Zair their shield (you need to hit Airdodge and Zair in order for it to work), Jab, Cancel the Jab with D-smash.
The whole thing happens so quickly which = shield pressure.
So what happens is, if they don't shield anything, you'll get em with a Bomb to Zair.
If they shield just the Bomb, you'll get a Zair (to Nair or grab or whatever).
If they shield the Bomb and the Zair, you will Jab them and then D-smash them and the Bomb that bounced off the shield will interupt the second hit of D-smash (= BCD!!).
If they shield the Bomb the Zair and the Jab, the D-smash will still BCD. (Only the timing is a little harder because of the shield hit lag from the Jab.)
If they shield everything including the D-smash, then at the right percents, you can Bair out of the blast of the Bomb, and it will break their shield. (Percent too low and you won't be able to Bair before you touch the ground. Percent too high and the hitstun will be too much and they'll be able to get out.)

This can also be done from the ledge. Just hit away from the ledge and it's all in the timing of the double jump then the rest is the same.

So yeah, shield pressure to BCD? I think so! And it doesn't hurt to have another way to use it.
Oh yeah, and he actually killed me with it and I was Toon. Yeah. Get ***** Foxy.

 

[napZzz]

Ok, so what I'm about to say is a whole lot of ****.
Me and Gords were stuffing around with tech skillz and random stuff (along with some Toon ditto's, which are also ****, but that's not what I'm talking about.) and, well let me just tell you.
Bomb Pull, SH, Bomb throw (Bomb bounces off opponents shield), Zair their shield (you need to hit Airdodge and Zair in order for it to work), Jab, Cancel the Jab with D-smash.
The whole thing happens so quickly which = shield pressure.
So what happens is, if they don't shield anything, you'll get em with a Bomb to Zair.
If they shield just the Bomb, you'll get a Zair (to Nair or grab or whatever).
If they shield the Bomb and the Zair, you will Jab them and then D-smash them and the Bomb that bounced off the shield will interupt the second hit of D-smash (= BCD!!).
If they shield the Bomb the Zair and the Jab, the D-smash will still BCD. (Only the timing is a little harder because of the shield hit lag from the Jab.)
If they shield everything including the D-smash, then at the right percents, you can Bair out of the blast of the Bomb, and it will break their shield. (Percent too low and you won't be able to Bair before you touch the ground. Percent too high and the hitstun will be too much and they'll be able to get out.)

This can also be done from the ledge. Just hit away from the ledge and it's all in the timing of the double jump then the rest is the same.

So yeah, shield pressure to BCD? I think so! And it doesn't hurt to have another way to use it.
Oh yeah, and he actually killed me with it and I was Toon. Yeah. Get ***** Foxy.

and someone does something smart with this finally.