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TL's NEW AT: 1 Hit KO on 1/3rd of Cast! *courtesy of McDingus and FioD*

Legendary Pikachu

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*******************************
Bomb-Cancelled D-smash (Gimp/1HKO)
Update 1.02: Audio for old vid is now in sync
Update 1.03: Added some quotes and links to other quotes under 'Practicality'
Update 1.04: Added 'PEOPLE DOING IT IN TOURNEY' quotes. They LANDED IT! ^_^. see the comments

Plan: To prepare Update Video with corrected recoveries and placements
*******************************

It was first mentioned/discovered by McDingus in the Toon Link A.T. Discussions thread and the project for advancing/testing/displaying the new AT was taken up by Fox Is Openly Deceptive, resident AT manager.


This new situational AT is similar to the d-smash incredible knockback gimp at low damages. As Fox_is_Openly_Deceptive puts it, think of the former d-smash gimp on STEROIDS and you have a very clear picture of this move.

The move is performed by doing d-smash, and having the 2nd hitbox of d-smash interrupted by a detonating bomb. Because the 2nd strike of d-smash never hits, unlike the normal d-smash gimp, the resulting knockback is a LOT farther, it is set knockback, and can be performed at ANY percent damage... even 0%. Because of its nature, the move must be performed close to the ledge (however, if you see from the video, some characters will still get killed from the 2nd arrow marker on either side of Final Destination) and land with the preferably the tip of the sword for the 'guarenteed' effects.

This new AT is so SITUATIONAL but SO potent, that about one-thirds (due to change soon) of the ENTIRE cast CANNOT survive the move (if executed correctly)--not even at 0% damage.

Quickest Most Basic Method of Execution:
1) Full hop pull bomb
2) Start falling
3) Invincibomb (bomb is dropped slightly behind you)
4) Perform d-smash as you land before the bomb explodes
5) Knick the opponent (with preferably the tip of TL's sword)
6) Falling bomb knicks Toon Link before Toon Link executes the 2nd strike of D-smash

From exhaustive initial testing, the whole entire board of characters can be separated into 3 distinct categories based on survival:

Doomed

-The victim CANNOT make it ONTO the stage with any of there recovery options.
-If Toon Link hugs the ledge, the opponent WILL NOT survive.
-1 Hit KO guarenteed if done at or before FD's 2nd arrow marker (heading towards middle of stage)

1) Mario *ultra marios can make it (says boss)* *Gonna retest... better yet (gonna try to ask boss to help test)*Look here for frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197

2) Link
3) Squirtle
4) Ivysaur
5) Shiek
6) Ganondorf
7) Ike
8) Captain Falcon
9) Fox *Lots of inquiries... leaning towards vulnerable*
10) Zero Suit Samus *Lots of inquiries...might fall under 'vulnerable'*
11) Olimar
12) Falco
13) Marth *Lots of inquiries...might fall under 'vulnerable'*-leaning towards 'doomed' still. Look here for frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197

Vulnerable
-The victim CAN make it ONTO the stage with some of there recovery options.
-If Toom Link perfectly times the hug/edgehog, the opponent CAN land on top of the stage (barely on sometimes, but still on).
-The knockback from the BCD is still severe, and those under 'vulnerable' have limited routes for recovery (since they've been thrown so far sideways and downwards by the move).
-In the video, each character under 'vulnerable' category is given a ESTIMATED survival rate based on (1) Number of recovery directions/options , (2) The effectiveness of any one recovery (covers great distance). *The percent is still a very rough estimation subject to change depending on skill*

1) DK
2) Ness
3) Lucario *percent pending for increase*
4) Ice Climbers *percent pending for increase*
5) Toon Link
6) Lucas *percent pending for increase*
7) Peach *percent pending for increase*
8) G&W *percent pending for increase*
9) Luigi *percent pending for increase*
10) Wario--pretty high originally but *percent pending for increase and resistant if waft is available*
11) Diddy Kong--pretty high originally but *percent pending for increase*

*still under vulnerable category: Toon Link has an influence (even if it is VERY small one) in determining the victims outcome*

Resistant
-The victim is UNPHASED by the BCD. The victim can almost ALWAYS recover.
-Multi-jumpers, high recoveries, teleporting recoveries, knockback resistance, ANY recovery option that Toon Link CANNOT possibly pursue and reach before the victim land back on stage.
-Those opting for 'Resistant category' must prove that TL cannot possibly influence the victim's recovery in anyway, no matter how small OR prove that the knockback of BCD is miniscule for the victim.

Everyone not mentioned above (yes, that includes bowser and wolf). Wolf's normal jump allows wolf to cover a LOT of distance sideways and side-b will make it past TL's lethal followups. Bowser barely even gets knock back at all and can attack Toon Link sometimes before Toon Link can setup for a killing followup. Zelda's fyore's wind starts too far for TL to lethally pursue and cannot be intercepted in the middle of it. The 'resistant' category are ALL those who are UNPHASED by the BCD. Bowser and Wolf may get killed, but that's just bad recovery... but not because of the BCD's knockback necessarily.

Universal (maybe not bowser) Water 1HKO:
If Toon Link horizontally throws an opponent into a body of water using BCD, the extreme knockback of the move results in an insane 1 Hit KO almost all of the time. DI is lagged in water, and momentum cancelling is impossible.

Landing it practically?
Don't worry. Though awesome, it'll still be a ***** to pull off.
PEOPLE LANDING IT ALREADY in TOURNEY?!
So for reactions:

Falco rushed his recovery (even though it wasn't the full version) and I just spotdodged his phantasm and d-smashed again for the under-20% version. No kill, but extra 30-40 damage from it all.

ICs took a long time to respond and went for the side-b recovery and failed. He definitely got frustrated by it and wasn't expecting it, and the next stock he messed up the chaingrab twice since he was suddenly down a stock.

G&W was in the water so he had no chance, but afterwards turned to me and basically said "wtf"

Oli said something about "TL's dsmash ***** olimar, but usually I can get back, don't know what happened there." So I had to explain to him about the bcdg.

All in all, people definitely don't see it coming if you do it right, and that gives them a few extra frames of mental hitstun which can get them to at least rush things and screw up a little
The problem with that is people will expect it, and that will start quick.


So now you guys need to develop reliable set-ups for it, stuff that works when your opponent expects it, or at the very least, forces your opponent to go for an alternative that advantages you.
^^take these wise quotes for whatever its worth. ^_^. May the masters survive the attack, may the masters land and finish the attack.

More throughts and quotes:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396221#post8396221
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396070#post8396070
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8396506#post8396506
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8398789#post8398789
There are lots of situational techs done regularly during a match. Kirby's kirbicide > footstool > dair > footstool is situational (the opponent has to be near the ledge and not expect it to happen), yet it's one of Kirby's best 1HKO techs. Diddy's upB on bananas that were thrown by the opponent is situational (you have to be falling on top of one), but if you do it it yields good results (two flying projectiles that go out of the camera, making it hard to avoid them).

This is yet another one of those techs, and the good thing is that it's relatively easy to do: just jump, drop a bomb, and dsmash from the right distance. A little practice will probably make it so that you barely ever miss it, and in most cases can turn a game around, literally... Plus, TL can create this situation no problem: opponents have to approach him anyways, since he's a projectile-based character. Once opponents get near, TL's usually go for sh > airdodge > zair, and now they have sh > iBomb > dsmash to mix it up (and bait a shield drop when the opponent realizes TL isn't zairing, and decides to run in for grabs or quick attacks).

And DTL, even if it can be teched, it's exactly the same as the "splat" from the dthrow chain in Pictochat and other such stages: very hard to get the tech timing down, and even if you master it, it's hard reacting in time... You literally have around 10 (or less) frames to realize he's about to dsmash you and remember the timing for the tech. So, it's not really an end-all solution to the tech.
I think this general idea is really cool and potentially really powerful, but you're probably limiting it by just looking for that (admittedly stylish) kill trick. Here's my question. If performed optimally, what is the "recovery time" for Toon Link? I mean, how long are you helpless (from the bomb hitstun) until you can airdodge? It doesn't look long at all; I'm thinking if you get smart with this you could do stuff like approach with it. If you hit, you get a good position and hurt them noticeably more than the bomb hurt you. If you fail (hit their shield with the dsmash first hit), you take fairly meager damage from your own bomb and are still in a good position. I think something like that is the direction that's good to go with this. It doesn't have to be just dsmash you go for with this either; I'd explore which of Toon Link's other moves can have similar uses.

I don't think anyone else can reliably interrupt their own moves with a self-damaging attack, but this could be a really cool direction for Link and Toon Link. I just really suggest exploring more than that one narrow application; you're looking at a general cancel to all of your moves which is 100% independent of your opponent's actions (and hence potentially very powerful).

If a trick is only useful when the opponent doesn't know about it, it's a bad trick. Good characters using good techniques can perform well even when the opponent understands them, and posting about your techniques in public will help bring in a lot of perspectives so you can look for wider applications and understand the counters that exist. The "metagame" of that trick advances, and assuming the trick is actually useful (which I suspect this one is), that only helps the mains of the character(s) who can perform it.

My brother hit me with the move twice now (different battles). Since I was pikachu, I lived through it, tho one thing I did find out:

Even though I knew it existed, as hard as it actually is to land, I definitely had a major WTF moment--like NO freakin' joke. Though I said I recovered (and i definitely wasn't going to die like that, personally ^_^), I defintely got 30+ damage each time he did it cuz of my surprise... and the re-tethers (can't depend on sweetspot QaC) and 2 bomb's thrown up in the air (+projectiles) are not the best situations to return to, especially at a point where you are mainly just focusing on staying ALIVE.

The pressure sort of feels like a d-smash from MK when he knicks you before you land (and you don't have jumps left), tho in BCD's case you still have a second jump (but the 2nd jump is almost null anyway in w/that low knockback). The fact that TL has enough freedom to setup ANYTHING or just screw around as the victim is spending a good 5+ full seconds trying to live is disconcerning.

My thoughts on the move BCD.... even if the move phases out of its original usefullness (much like how pikachu's d-smash is no longer feared as much) using it at the right time to annoy/frustrate/and confuse really determines the rest of the match sometimes especially if you're on a stage like frigate orpheon (my CP as a pikachu sometimes) O_O.

***********************

The move is still in its INFANCY. Only time will truly confirm the lists and whether this AT can revolutionize Toon Link's metagame.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dI_GS3u0gE
^Video above will be updated with new footage eventually detailing better recoveries and updated percentages/category placement.
AUDIO IS NOW IN SYNC AT END... :) *I fixed it*
(I may re-encode the video in better quality in the near future)

Hope you enjoy!

Edit:
*********************************
Concerns Raised
*********************************

TL needs to predict how Lucario is going to exactly approach the stage or he risks killing himself.

This is an amazing find, even though it is situational and requires you to read your opponent extremely well in some cases
.
i didnt see pikachus skull bash being used, nor kirbys hammer

i also didnt see MK use Drill rush, Shuttle Loop, Dimensional cape

i also did not see ZSS using UP+B, Side+b

Take your time and do the research. Because im pretty sure those that are most effected by this move have more options. Example: Ivysaur can use her razor leaf to DI towards the stage, and Marth can sword dance stall then recover.
Zero Suit Samus can hop off your head when you are edgehogging with her down B.
"Lucas could recover with his horizontal glitches."

My Character: "Advanced Technique"
Anyone else's character "Glitch"

For those in RED, reason why I didn't elaborate MK, kirby, and Pika is that I ALREADY stated that they are NOT affected by the move... why waste more time confirming that BCD doesn't work against those characters.

You guys are exactly right. I DID take that into account, so that's why all "those people" are under 'vulnerable'. I am aware that there are MANY cases that a character CAN recover... those under 'vulnerable' are all LOOSELY up there (they are NOT a 'guarenteed' kill by 'vulnerable's strict definition, so QUIT worrying). Percents are shown, but as is the case for every statistic, THERE IS ROOM FOR EXCEPTIONS--percents are loose estimations anyway but will be faithfully updated or removed altogether upon request with suggestion and documentation (not just 'lucas wavebounces', but WHERE, WHEN, how low is he doing it, will his 2nd jump reach edge/up-b safely?)

If anything, just take into heart that this move is a move that can be done at 0% damage to set up for a disadvantaged recovery--VERY far sideways and very low. Very few moves are like that in brawl and that is the MAIN focus of the video/technique's entirety. Imagine if your respective characters had a move that could do that... i am pretty sure you guys wouldn't pass the oppurtunity to EFFECTIVELY seal the kill and figure out what is guarenteed or not by your own skills/abilities.

BOTTOM LINE: There are people who can get easily killed, there are some who CAN survive (so you don't have to continuely bash the thread/me about survival oppurtunities for those who have been stated 'CAN SURVIVE!'.... youtube vids can only be like 10 mins (mine bordered 9:40--i can't put every single amazin' recovery in the footage).
Note to any SKILLED Mains: If any of you are so adamantly convinced that your character's potential is SO misrepresented in the video (and for that... I formally apologize), please send me a replay of you epicly recovering from the attack and another of you getting honestly follow-up-mindgamed-gimped by this attack. This would HIGHLY be appreciated and would expedite the Update vid process. Of course you will be credited on the page of the character. Let all of youtube witness that you have survived a 'seemingly' unsurvivable attack... lol. Thank you again.

My MAIN concern right now are those disputed under DOOMED. Inquiries involve ZSS, Mario, Fox, and Marth as of right now. I will test them for sure and update accordingly. I am aware and testing the concerns you guys brought up--I firmly agree that it is an injustice to post those mentioned under doomed if indeed they are not. If indeed they cannot survive because of inability to sweetspot the edge, they will still remain under DOOMED.

The main argument for the 'doomed' category above is that your survival depends solely on toon link messing up the edgehog (whether he doesn't refresh it). The true factor for placement in vulnerable is the ability to LAND ONTO the stage (so even if TOON LINK edgehogs/tether-gimps PERFECTLY, the victim can STILL land on the stage). Because of this, by definition, Marth is still 'likely' to remain in doomed, and ZSS may be moved towards vulnerable (footstool will clearly land her on the stage).


The video WILL be updated eventually
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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OMG!!!!!!
It's here!
(Watches....)
Get *****! That was by far the greatest AT vid I have ever seen!

Can I just say, LegendaryPikachu is being very modest about this. No one can deny that he has put the most amount of time and effort into making this AT happen. He has been testing and recording/editing for days now and was the first one to discover the true potential behind this move. OHKO!!!
There really isn't anything that I can say that would give you enough praise for your efforts. Thank you so much man. I owe you big time.
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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OMG!!!!!!
It's here!
(Watches....)
Get *****! That was by far the greatest AT vid I have ever seen!

Can I just say, LegendaryPikachu is being very modest about this. No one can deny that he has put the most amount of time and effort into making this AT happen. He has been testing and recording/editing for days now and was the first one to discover the true potential behind this move. OHKO!!!
There really isn't anything that I can say that would give you enough praise for your efforts. Thank you so much man. I owe you big time.
^This a thousand times.

Amazing vid, and so it should be lol. You spent days on this with little sleep and who knows what else :p

Seriously good shiz man. Cannot thank you enough.
 

swordsaint

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from anywhere except the ledge, can it not be smash DI'd in to the stage and then teched?

good find, but im just speculating on this

I noticed that, you're not taking in to account recovery stalling.

For instance Mario's cape or Marth's side B. Both of which stall their recovery enough to be able to attack Toon Link on the edge.
 

swordsaint

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Also read my edit.

Another thing, with ZSS, the recovery you displayed as an example doesn't have her utilising her Up Special after her jump for a better boost.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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from anywhere except the ledge, can it not be smash DI'd in to the stage and then teched?

good find, but im just speculating on this
The context of the 1 hit ko move is doing it near the ledge. If done too far inwards, then yes, the opponent can tech the hit (very anti-climactic tho -_-). We don't current have hack-benchmarking tools to absolutely confirm how much DI a victim is capable of doing to escape--although I could ask a close friend to confirm real quick... I'll have it done sometime soon. Again the move is still in it's infancy and we'll need other people experience and skills to confirm whether this is worthwhile or not.

It's still situational... but boy, what a situational gimp! ^_^

Also read my edit.

Another thing, with ZSS, the recovery you displayed as an example doesn't have her utilising her Up Special after her jump for a better boost.
Alright... I'll go back to the drawing board to see if that boost is enough to get her onto the stage (cuz that's the main distinction) with DI and down-b--if not, she still remains 'doomed.' I'll post an update version of the vid whenever I get the audio fixed. Thanks for the help.

I noticed that, you're not taking in to account recovery stalling.

For instance Mario's cape or Marth's side B. Both of which stall their recovery enough to be able to attack Toon Link on the edge.
Yea, I knew about the stalling. If toon link is 'hit', then yes the marth and/or staller will recover. The main distinction of the 'Doomed' category is that the victim CANNOT land ONTO the stage, making sweetspotting the ONLY option. if Toon Link succeeds the edge-hog, the opponent will die (Toon Link can tether regrab for longer invincibility). In regards to the marth scenario, I'll consider moving him down to Vulnerable and any others that start surviving.

Even so, the knockback of that calibur--most Marth's would agree that that is the ABSOLUTE WORST spacing scenario. Because the knockback is also slightly downwards, I still need to test whether stalling with side-B will cost marth the sweetspot distance (since marth is far and low already).

I'll be keeping a close eye on the turn of events and updating the vid is not outside the scope of my ability
 

Four Leaf

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Hmm I watched the vid and it looks legit, but I think zss could have a possibility to recover. I don't think she is assumed to always be dead.
 

solecalibur

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Hmm I watched the vid and it looks legit, but I think zss could have a possibility to recover. I don't think she is assumed to always be dead.
theres quite a few of people that could possibly recover it was just the person not knowing the character well enough to space n such its never the less a good tech
 

EverAlert

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Wow, good ****. I'll have to watch out next time I play Foxy. D:<

A few notes:

- Ice Climbers have a far better recovery than is represented in the video, I wouldn't say they are "Resistant," but I'd put them at 50% minimum, their side b is far more (vertically) useful and versatile than that.

- I also feel, like swordsaint, that many of the Doomed/Vulnerable have better chances of recovering than represented here. Of course, this is where you call in the cavalry and have all the character-specific pros elaborate on their recoveries. :p

- Marth can stall with Side B but it also kills his momentum, not useful for his recovery afaik (I'm no Marth expert, though). FAir helps, though.

- Yes, you can S/DI the first hit, the same kind of thing has happened to me in the past where I've SDI'd the first hit and as a result missed the second hit. I'd speculate that you'd be able to jump just before being hit, SDI down and tech. Or even just aid your spacing with regular ground S/DI.


Deadly and cool. I like it.
 

smashkng

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Wario is probably only "vulnerable" if he can't use bike, aiming upward the bike jump allows to jump really high. So he can technically jump twice. Wario is very hard to edge guard when he has bike. So I would change to "Resistant". "Vulnerable" or "Doomed" if he can't use bike. I think he just need to jump, then bike, then just air dodge the dair.
 

prOAPC

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Lucas says "learn to wavezap"
Toon Link is really fun, i like using invincibomb, and this looks like a good use for it. It's a shame i change my secondaries (Toon Link, GnW) for better characters (MK, DDD)
i'll try it next time i play and look for setups
 

Nidtendofreak

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I think Mario could make it back using his cape. No Mario expert, so I wouldn't know, but it does give him a boost and he was close to making it back in the video. Or it could screw up your edgehog timing.

Stupid Ike and his terrible recovery. ;_;
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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There is definitly something iffy about the way Peach recovered the second time

From the distance you double jump Floated Bair, Peach could have easily used her Up + B sooner and recovered. If she does decide to double jump float, Peach should never be using Bair anyway, Nair would have been a much better option since it would have negated the arrow. She could have also used her Up + B much sooner by the looks of things when hit with the arrow - the reason she died was because she used her Up + B far too late to have any realistic chance of getting enough vertical height recovering. Also, whilst the Parasol was open, you zoomed right into the side of the stage, completely away from the point where she could sweetspot the ledge. Is TL completely invincible during the time he drops from the ledge and re tethers it? If not, it wouldn't surprise me if her Parasol whilst open could knock him off the ledge


Regardless of that picky remark, great find you guys, really nice work on all the testing and stuff and great vid too :) This looks pretty tricky to pull off though D:
 

Matt07

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I was just about to say the same thing, Nidtendofreak. Cape will allow us to reach the edge, but after the hit we're in a very bad spot to get edge guarded :urg:.

Awesome find Toon Link's, good stuff!
 

CaliburChamp

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Combining 2 AT's into 1 super awesome AT. Invinci-bomb + D-smash gimp. This is like the highest evolution of the invinci-bombing technique, added with the d-smash gimp, being able to KO in 1 hit! This is definitely a must learn! I'm surprised I didn't think of this when I founded invinci-bombing, great find LP.
 

copacetic

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Wario is probably only "vulnerable" if he can't use bike, aiming upward the bike jump allows to jump really high. So he can technically jump twice. Wario is very hard to edge guard when he has bike. So I would change to "Resistant". "Vulnerable" or "Doomed" if he can't use bike. I think he just need to jump, then bike, then just air dodge the dair.
You'd have to use the bike ASAP and get off it right away, since TL's zair will poke you through it and cancel that second jump completely. Also, an arrow, rang, bomb, nair, and fair will do the same trick, though the bike can stop the projectiles and it's hard to get over to you and nair/fair before you can jump off.

So basically, if we hit you off the bike, you're kinda screwed (unless you have a waft), and TL has a lot of options to do that, though not easy. That's why Wario is in the "vulnerable" category, since we can force a gimp if we read it right, but it won't always work.

It seems like we have a pretty good idea for everyone, though some characters can pull off some slight recovery tricks that may tip the scale. Then again TL might have a way to counter those tricks, so it will need some testing by some of the best for each character to know for sure.

Also, excellent job on the vid LDPK
 

Fenrir VII

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This is a really cool tactic... and I like the proposed uses for it, especially off the ledge... nicely done, all.


One note, Fox isn't on the "doomed" list if he Fair recovers, going MUCH higher than a normal double jump... which all Foxes should... At that point, he should have a couple different shortenings of illusion, as well as a couple of Firefox angles to get back to the stage...

Just thought you should know, but seriously, good find and workup, everybody. *applauds


I posted this in the general thread, but it should be here, too. : )
 

Sosuke

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If they make it back to the stage, you can just do it again.


This tech is really good. >_<
All you need to do is have a bomb out and be in the right position.
 

Melomaniacal

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I don't know if it's been said, but Fox can definitely get back. Rising fair + firefox gets more distance.
Mario could probably get back with his cape.
Diddy can use his forward B.
 

ASF1nk

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I don't know if it's been said, but Fox can definitely get back. Rising fair + firefox gets more distance.
Mario could probably get back with his cape.
Diddy can use his forward B.
Yea fox may be able to, but Mario meh if they stall their recovery we tether same for marth.
Can diddy up B after using his forward B? cuz forward B is not enough to reach the stage.
 

Judo777

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Excellent find and a very crippling AT if done right even if it doesn't guarantee a kill. Couple of small notes to ask.

Firstly i agree with the others that u should look into mario and marth because the stall does allow them to change when u have to edgehog and edge hogging these 2 can be a lil tricky.

I think zero suit has a few more options than even that because she can down b, jump(maybe even upb for the boost), side b the ledge if you are on it to knock u off then drop down and up b again.

I think wario should be resistant because he has a bike and unless u do it at the very begininng or right after he uses it he WILL have a waft and i think he just has far too many options plus if you get greedy he might just bite u.

Lastly and most importantly u should test to see if tether characters can tether the ledge before they go off if facing the right direction because tether character can often survive foxes dsmash at crazy percents. And even tho i know its unlikely that they will be facing the other direction it should still be tested. Not to mention sasuke bowser said u could do it again if made it back on but once they recover they will be facing the right direction to tether.

Also sheik can tether the opposite way she is facing.
 

Radori Nighthawk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
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Excellent find and a very crippling AT if done right even if it doesn't guarantee a kill. Couple of small notes to ask.

Firstly i agree with the others that u should look into mario and marth because the stall does allow them to change when u have to edgehog and edge hogging these 2 can be a lil tricky.

I think zero suit has a few more options than even that because she can down b, jump(maybe even upb for the boost), side b the ledge if you are on it to knock u off then drop down and up b again.

I think wario should be resistant because he has a bike and unless u do it at the very begininng or right after he uses it he WILL have a waft and i think he just has far too many options plus if you get greedy he might just bite u.

Lastly and most importantly u should test to see if tether characters can tether the ledge before they go off if facing the right direction because tether character can often survive foxes dsmash at crazy percents. And even tho i know its unlikely that they will be facing the other direction it should still be tested. Not to mention sasuke bowser said u could do it again if made it back on but once they recover they will be facing the right direction to tether.

Also sheik can tether the opposite way she is facing.
We'll look into it. After all, it was just discovered. Not likely we'll get ALL the details correct from the start.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
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Also note this only works on grounded opponents if done around the tip of the first dsmash hit.

For some reason the offsets of the hitboxes make it so that there are two 70 degree angle hitboxes around the tip of the sword. These hitboxes naturally won't give the desired effect.
 

Sosuke

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I like how this can stop Falcos from chain grabbing.
 

Melomaniacal

Smash Champion
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Yea fox may be able to, but Mario meh if they stall their recovery we tether same for marth.
Can diddy up B after using his forward B? cuz forward B is not enough to reach the stage.
I'm almost positive that Fox should have no trouble getting back. Fair will get good vertical distance, and at that point illusion should be able to get him on stage. If not, firefox has more distance.

It'll just be harder to ledgehog Mario if he stalls, unless you predict it. I just wouldn't call him dead, it's just a really bad position.

Diddy can smash his side B for maximum horizontal distance, or tilt it for a little more vertical distance. After that, he can use his barrels (unless he flip kicks, which he obviously wont do). So he's got: side B, jump, barrels. Should be back no problem.
 

Sosuke

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You can hog the ledge with a chain after doing this,

So any characters that can't immeditly make it back to the stage and have to try and grab the ledge are screwed.


If they can make it back, you can do it again if they're in a helpless state. =P
 

LordshadowRagnarok

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Although a LARGE number of the Doomed and vulnerable characters presented have something they could do to increase their recovery chances (along with "Oh look, Toon Link is above me. Whatever will he do?") I will have to be more cautious about toon links now.
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
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You'd have to use the bike ASAP and get off it right away, since TL's zair will poke you through it and cancel that second jump completely. Also, an arrow, rang, bomb, nair, and fair will do the same trick, though the bike can stop the projectiles and it's hard to get over to you and nair/fair before you can jump off.

So basically, if we hit you off the bike, you're kinda screwed (unless you have a waft), and TL has a lot of options to do that, though not easy. That's why Wario is in the "vulnerable" category, since we can force a gimp if we read it right, but it won't always work.

It seems like we have a pretty good idea for everyone, though some characters can pull off some slight recovery tricks that may tip the scale. Then again TL might have a way to counter those tricks, so it will need some testing by some of the best for each character to know for sure.

Also, excellent job on the vid LDPK
TL won't hit Wario off the bike ever if the Wario knows what he's doing. Hell, it's hard for Metaknight to gimp Wario, and that dude has a ridiculous downair and 6 jumps. One uptilted bike jump + Wario's DI will let him back to the stage from pretty much anywhere he wants, plus he can DI any additional, non DAIR hits upwards, which will just give him more room to recover.

Withouth the bike Wario is 100% doomed, though, as you can edgehog him with zair even if he has a waft.
 

feardragon64

Smash Champion
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Ok can I announce the biggest problem with this tech against a good player?

What's your setup? If I see a TL pull out a bomb and jump right in front of me, I'm **** sure not going to stand there like a ******* and let you dsmash me. Let's say you had me in a bad situation already and for some reason I can't just *space* like I normally would. Hell let's say I don't see it coming. Go through that situation.

TL pulls out a bomb and is landing right in front of me. I don't have a quick enough reaction time to react to the actual bomb drop so all I'm reacting to is TL landing in front of me with a bomb. A couple of my first possible instincts:
-Shield the potential bomb. Beats the dsmash gimp.
-Grab if you're close enough. Beats the dsmash gimp(even if the bomb hits me to, I still get the grab and it ruins the gimp)
-Attack before you before you throw the bomb. Granted if you're airdodging and I miss this could end poorly for me, but in the end I would hit the bomb you dropped anyways, which would make me go up and while you're dsmashing, I'm slightly above you and can maybe punish you with an aerial? Just a thought there. Beats the dsmash gimp.
-Move out of the way(or behind you). This move obviously requires some spacing. If I get hit by the bomb too then the first hit of the dsmash will be canceled out. If I move away, your spacing is messed up.

And what's the biggest problem with this? You're dropping a bomb on yourself. You can't even bait and pretend to do it because anything you try to do(like pretend like you'll do it, wait for shield and grab) will be interrupted by your bomb when it explodes on you. You might be able to get like one or two hits of jab out if you're willing to get hit, but otherwise you're stuck trying to make sure you don't get hit by your bomb and can't really punish anything.

This is a short summary of why I don't think this tech will do any good against a GOOD player. No setup. Especially against a wario(looking up at the argument above). When do expect to find this wario just sitting there on the ground long enough for you to do all of this without them seeing it coming and moving out of the way with their aerial mobility? Oh, and it has to be practically right next to the edge to be a kill against half the people you mentioned. That makes it all the more harder to setup although I guess you could use it for placing them in a bad spot.

Last note: in your video are the characters DI'ing UP? I'd like to see this done on characters that are DI'ing up and using aerial momentum canceling stuff to see if they can make it back to the stage(although I'm not sure how much momentum can be canceled with first hit of dsmash since it's set knockback?)
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
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Feardragon pretty much has this. This tech is like 99.8% situational and wont work EVER in a tourney match. Thanks for the find and the video though LDPK.
 

NeverKnowsBest

Monochrome Like A Panda
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May 18, 2007
Messages
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Fort Washington, MD.
Facking Toon Links....

The Fox boards can now let out a sigh of relief. We can get back easy.

Good **** Toon Links.

I wish Fox had bombs...

Bomb drop up smash?

lzuzulzulzuzuzlzzulzulzzu!~!~!~!~~~!!~!
 
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