TL's NEW AT: 1 Hit KO on 1/3rd of Cast! *courtesy of McDingus and FioD*

[Man of Popsicle]

Get rid of the percents.
They're BS.
Luigi and wario will always make it, and don't be so sure about everyones gimpability.
And move marth to vulnerable.
And you totally forgot lucarios UPB>Wall Cling.

 

[Sosuke]

Lucas can wall cling? O_O

 

[TLMSheikant]

Dumb sasuke, he said Lucario.

 

[Sosuke]

Sorry for misreading something on this phone's .25 size font.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Get rid of the percents.
They're BS.
Luigi and wario will always make it, and don't be so sure about everyones gimpability.
And move marth to vulnerable.
And you totally forgot lucarios UPB>Wall Cling.

That's been determined for a while now. VERY likely to be thrown out for the updated vid. Although I'd still want to order them in some kind of hierarchy somehow on the vid (with ppl like DK and ness being easiest to followup).

Ouch... (though i probably deserve it for even putting them up), I did spend SOME deep thought and consideration on it, even tho it was lacking in knowledge. The percents will likely be out in ver.2.0.

Not too sure if i can put luigi entirely in resistant just yet but wario is a definite bet if he still has bike/waft (technically its still possible for TL to camp near a messed up bike and bait the eating/destroying of the bike to the BCD... who knows O_O). The reason for luigi maybe being in vulnerable still is fact that TL can still "reach" Luigi (w/ projectiles>aerials>spike). Sure luigi may have a 95% chance of surviving but being 100% is what resistant calls for. Like the victim's of resistant could do pretty much ANYTHING and still get back on without dying--that or they just aren't thrown that far. Of course I could just place luigi in resistant, but I initially intended for the category of vulnerable to give the other mains a 'heads up' cause they need to take at least a lil' caution against the move--though high and variable, Luigi's recovery is not the best in the game at times and lil' knicks to Down-b and side-b (i.e. by MK or lucky arrows) would end luigi. I'll think about it and put the question up again before smashboards community before i finish the update vid. Thanks for the thoughts.

I am not dissing marth's recovery... just I still need to test marth landing ON the stage with his side-b addition and good DI. If you got any replays, that saves me the work. Please send me them if you have em'. PM me.

Dude... again, did I EVER say that lucario cannot do a wall cling option. I am aware that the percent is low (along with other characters) and the percents will be thrown out most likely anyways. Plus, you got to remember that initially I ran the percent chance calculations against freakin' good toon links and their statistics/options for techchasing/followup offstage. If anything, those (initial and really rough... I admit) percents shown are the bare MINIMUMs for an average player to recover against a PERFECT TL (remember the vid was initially intended as a TL tutorial with a TL appeasing purpose).

 

[noradseven]

And most importantly, now you're exploring how to use the bomb to cancel your moves, what else can you do with this?

Is their any other move you want canceled, maybe d-air.....

 

[Salem]

Is their any other move you want canceled, maybe d-air.....

I've been blowing myself up to cancel moves. >_>

I could pull out a list of what you can do by doing it and all the combos that can be done.

 

[2nLio]

lol, why is it that a lot of the people from the other boards sounds so angry with this new AT?

Having the opponent be tossed that far off stage and somewhat downward puts toonlink in a very advantageous position. Whether the other character has a good enough recovery to get back on stage, toon link has a lot of options to edgehog (ledge re-grab, fair, spike if you're risky, projectiles, etc etc)

obviously all that doesnt apply to dumb mk and some other characters but it still puts us in a very good position. On top of that, the other player is having a major "wtf" moment putting us at a better mental state (which a lot of the time will be the determining factor in a match).

 

[adumbrodeus]

The same effect can be accomplished with a SH>bombpull>Quick-bomb-drop (where the bomb is z-released high enough so that it explodes and does not lie on the ground)>BCD. Towards the end of the video I had an example of the 1 Short-hopped version but in that one, there were 'flames' on teh opponent. The true, non-flame version can be done (however, the timing is very narrow).

A more practical version of the short-hop version is doing the same thing SH>bombpull>quickbombdrop> but then pivot the dsmash. The pivoting takes the narrow window off of pulling the true non-flame BCD on because the bomb is behind you and the opponent should not get hit by the bomb as easily. It sort of integrates with RAR's very well, that or surprise GTFO situtuations when TL is retreating from an advancing opponent. Those are when you DONT have a bomb already in hand. If the TL already does have a bomb, the TL could perform the move on the fly. I'll be sure to get some frame information on those setups (I need to ask some1 with hacking software tho... anyone willing to help me?).

Elsewhere within tactical discussion just recently, there is one report/rumor that the killing cancelled dsmash could be acheived through sheer pivot sliding the downsmash. Technically, that could be the fastest option if it is confirmed (going to test).

Ok, actually those are all separate versions of the technique since the all have unique counters from the opponent's prospective (unless you're MK, I think he can tornado through them all), so frame data the fastest way you can pull each of them off.

Also, ledgehopped version is probably gonna be important, frame data that.

I think u-smash could be cancelled and you could follow up with f-air, n-air, or even a killing u-air if you DI the bomb cancel blast towards your opponent. Technically that feat has been performed by TL's a lot of times already, but mostly as a 'when it happens' thing--doing it deliberately may be a new approach in killing (WTF... TL can kill better? lol) if the frame advantage calculations work out. Shield pressure could be consciously exploited more also, since bombs bounce off oppenents' sheilds anyway you could mix in a falling z-air to whittle more shield down, throw in some jab cancels>charging smash of choice and either hit the opponent with following mindgames, or cripple their shield before the bomb cancels your charge/smash attack safely. The result could be even better if you could space the bomb so that it hits both you and your opponent (safer) when it cancels your attack.

Interesting thoughts and take on the technique and great insight!

Yes, that's the ticket, if you can get combos off are the first thing to consider.


But from there... what about setting up guessing game? Breaking shields? Punishing spotdodges?

There are a lot of possibilities for how to use this technique.



Also, more general insight for the tech itself, also go for it onstage at non-kill locations, it can set up techchasing (you'll probably be able to at least get an arrow off, possibly more). Also if you get them off-stage, you can up for edguarding or at least harass them as they come back if there's no way you can do that.

Also, look to see if there's a "top damage racker version", in other words, one that you get the entire downsmash and then the bomb, and all hits the opponent, from there, you might be able to follow-up.



And thanks, I'm a Marth main, we're all stat freaks, so when other people see a gimmicky technique, we see implications that might be metagame-changing.

I've been blowing myself up to cancel moves. >_>

I could pull out a list of what you can do by doing it and all the combos that can be done.

Yes, do it.

Frame data them to make sure they're legit too.

I'm hearing a lot of people talking about stalling in the air, for example, with Mario and Marth's Side-B. True, it can stall them in the air for more time, and should be helpful to them, but TL has a plan for that. This is from Fox is Openly Deceptive's guide:

Ledge Re-Grab
How to Perform: Grab onto a ledge, Hit Backwards then Z twice really quickly.
Effect: Toon will regain his Invincibility frames really quickly. He will let go of the edge, Zair then snap to the ledge.

In theory, even if you stall, there's nothing stopping us from regaining our invincibility frames. It takes like .25 seconds to perform, and we can do it 3 times.

You gotta factor in human reaction time in however (about 8 frames at the top of the metagame), frame data it, but I'm pretty sure Mario and Marth can up-b during the vulnerability frames on the chain regrab on reaction.

At the very least they can make it a guessing game, which puts them in vulnerable.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

You gotta factor in human reaction time in however (about 8 frames at the top of the metagame), frame data it, but I'm pretty sure Mario and Marth can up-b during the vulnerabilityframes on the chain regrab on reaction.

At the very least they can make it a guessing game, which puts them in vulnerable.

Actually.... I just posted a frame by frame discertation at like 3 AM last night about this issue. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8407197#post8407197

In short, as for the openings, perfection = impossible for Marth or Mario.

Even at the best case scenario for Marth/Mario considering reaction time and stuff, TL's re-tether has an average of 5~9 frame window to seal off the ledge FOR GOOD, and the re-tether during this 'critical range' is only 1 frame long including full-duration TL invincibility to boot.

After seeing the calcs, Samus, Link, Olimar, Ivysaur, ZSS, Shiek, and Olimar could also make use of this frame data information.

The ONLY reason the perfect re-tether-hog works during frame data calculations (interesting enough) is because the beginning premise that Mario/Marth are spaced in a roughly low/far position (BCD position). I hope some of this enlightens both TL and Marth/Marios cuz now, both know exactly where the openings are to defend/exploit.


Slightly below that post I threw out the idea that Marth/Mario may fall in a 'hybrid' status (along with wario) where if the situation is right (wario has no bike, TL performs the 'perfect edgehog') there is 100% death, no chance of survival. And if the TL doesn't retether before marth executes up-b (or if wario does have bike) then its 90% death for marth (legit 'vulnerable' still) and ~100% survival (resistant) for wario.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

LP when you redo everyone's recovery, make it perfect. This way, everyone will shut up about it. Everyone is tryna bring us down.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Awesome tech. Awesome video. IMO I'd put Wario on resistant though. I don't know if there's going to be a case where wario bikes in the wrong direction. And with is great DI, he'll be able to avoid any Dair attempts.

I'd love to see this get used in a tournament :-p

 

[Sosuke]

I'm glad I know how to edge guard Wario with TL. ^_^
Angled boomerangs and bombs ftw.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

*Intersting question*

Since the posting of the AT, a long while ago, Boss a mario whom i respect (and faced once) said something along the lines of "heh... marios don't know how to recover."

Seeing tho as it was Boss who said it, i delved to find out what he meant... So the first question is this: Does Fludd make any difference to mario's survival? Charging it change DI (i don't know much about mario)? Could squirtle DI to the side while watergun charging for more distance? What about firing water away from stage (does that push mario/squirt back towards the stage?). Does their jump when saved up cover enough vertical height at that point with up-b to land on top of the stage?

I am going to be testing this out sometime soon but feel free to help me test.

Remember, plz send me those vids if you have em' of characters survivin'! ^_^

 

[WindMajor]

Has anybody ever thought of doing the BCD as you're dropping from a platform?

If you are in Battlefield, and you hit down to drop from the platform, then hit Z to drop, you can do the BCD.

You can also do it from a full hop onto the platform.

 

[copacetic]

yeah I actually though of that today. Of the tourney stages, BF, SV, Lylat, castle seige, frigate, and PS1 all have platforms of the right height/distance from the ledge to do this afaik. Brinstar works if you run off the side of one, and Delfino and RC have some parts that work.

This way definitely has high potential of getting it down, since people will most likely be trying to usmash you through a platform and we get to avoid having to SH it so it's not as telegraphed

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, I had a bit of spare time today, so as promised, I did some testing.

Lets talk options. We do not have to commit to this move. We have many other good options. So to name a few.....

Options other then using D-smash as soon as you land right after the SH, Invincibomb.
Instead of using D-smash, you can;
Catch the bomb by Hitting A.
Shield/perfect shield the bomb blast. If you shield, you have your OoS options.
Sidestep.
Instantly Dash. This means that we can actually run out of the way of the blast without getting hit (Dash Grab if they shield?)
SH/Full hop and Instantly catch the Bomb with any aerial.
SH/Full hop and Instantly catch the Bomb with Airdodge then cancel the airdodge with Zair if you wish.
SH/Full hop and Instantly catch the Bomb with an Instant Bomb Throw.

Options other then Invincibombing at the peak of a SH.
You SH, at the peak of your jump, instead of using Invincibomb, you can;
Zair with a Bomb.
ZAC
Throw the Bomb.
Throw a Boomerang
FF Quickdraw (even if you stuff it up, Toon will just smash throw the Bomb)
Or even just Double Jump.

So as you can see, at any point, we can stop the tech and do something else.


How about other ways to perform it? I've found another way.
Try Bomb Pull, Full hop, Boomerang, Invincibomb, D-smash. If they run under the angled Boomerang, you'll have a surprise waiting for them.

I'm not sure how helpful this next one is, but the point is, it works.
Bomb Pull, SH, IZAC with Bair, Invincibomb, D-smash. The timing is pretty hard and even then, the Bair is going the wrong way, but you never know, there might be a way to use this. Thought I should mention it anyway.

I'll do more testing when I get more time.

 

[mildcard]

Holy crap. Toon Link is even more of a beast now.

 

[Sosuke]

This is actually really going to help against ICs.

 

[TheJerm]

Hmm, This is cool. I've done it plenty of times before, but on accident and never put too much thought into it. I'm thinking of viable ways to use this, but in the end, it doesnt seem like its going to change much. Normal downsmash gimp is easier to pull off in tournament play. There are a few things I have in mind to use this for and i'll test them.

 

[Mota]

Options other then using D-smash as soon as you land right after the SH, Invincibomb.
Instead of using D-smash, you can;
Catch the bomb by Hitting A.
Shield/perfect shield the bomb blast. If you shield, you have your OoS options.
Sidestep.
Instantly Dash. This means that we can actually run out of the way of the blast without getting hit (Dash Grab if they shield?)
SH/Full hop and Instantly catch the Bomb with any aerial.
SH/Full hop and Instantly catch the Bomb with Airdodge then cancel the airdodge with Zair if you wish.
SH/Full hop and Instantly catch the Bomb with an Instant Bomb Throw.

Options other then Invincibombing at the peak of a SH.
You SH, at the peak of your jump, instead of using Invincibomb, you can;
Zair with a Bomb.
ZAC
Throw the Bomb.
Throw a Boomerang
FF Quickdraw (even if you stuff it up, Toon will just smash throw the Bomb)
Or even just Double Jump.

So as you can see, at any point, we can stop the tech and do something else..

Good list. TLs roll isn't great, but we could roll away.
The ledge set-up sounds awesome, have to try that out.

So has anyone been able to pull this off in a match? >_<
It just doesn't come to mind for me yet.

 

[TLMSheikant]

This makes my best counterpick stage even better . Of course, I havent been able to do this yet in a match. :/ I reconsidered and think this tech has potential, we can now cancel our usmash this way to make it safer .

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

So has anyone been able to pull this off in a match? >_<
It just doesn't come to mind for me yet.

I think the TL's who are fluid with '2 bombs out at all times' kind of playstyles will fit this into their aersenal and frame of mind real easy.

My brother hit me with the move twice now (different battles). Since I was pikachu, I lived through it, tho one thing I did find out:

Even though I knew it existed, as hard as it actually is to land, I definitely had a major WTF moment--like NO freakin' joke. Though I said I recovered (and i definitely wasn't going to die like that, personally ^_^), I defintely got 30+ damage each time he did it cuz of my surprise... and the re-tethers (can't depend on sweetspot QaC) and 2 bomb's thrown up in the air (+projectiles) are not the best situations to return to, especially at a point where you are mainly just focusing on staying ALIVE.

The pressure sort of feels like a d-smash from MK when he knicks you before you land (and you don't have jumps left), tho in BCD's case you still have a second jump (but the 2nd jump is almost null anyway in w/that low knockback). The fact that TL has enough freedom to setup ANYTHING or just screw around as the victim is spending a good 5+ full seconds trying to live is disconcerning.

My thoughts on the move BCD.... even if the move phases out of its original usefullness (much like how pikachu's d-smash is no longer feared as much) using it at the right time to annoy/frustrate/and confuse really determines the rest of the match sometimes especially if you're on a stage like frigate orpheon (my CP as a pikachu sometimes) O_O.

 

[TLMSheikant]

It CAN be used. I find that once the opponent knows of its existence, he will be expecting it and fear approaching (depends on the char) while u throw bombs up in the air . MINDGEMES. Even if u dont do the BCDS, the existence of the tech means its something more to fear .

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

I can now visualized the victory roar of a TL landing this move: "You sir, have just been windwakered" O_O

Oh, on another note. If any of you guys have that infinite replay hack on your Wii's, please send me the .bin files when you save an epic BCD setup/followup/ or real match ownage. I'll try to put that up towards the end of the new update vid with definite credits and stuff. Same thing applies when you are doing testing in normal versus mode and do something amazing.

This is actually really going to help against ICs.

Oh yea.... especailly with the fall-back chance of the bomb-blowing you up (or the IC's away) out of their reach if they attempt a running sheild grab. Even if the IC's have a superarmor grab frame, the leftover climber will definitely be quite out of sync at that point (if you land the D-smash with a hovering bomb close by... both IC's can't powershield @ the same time so that means shield hitstun slide, and only 1 can take advantage of grab superarmor).

 

[cemo]

Cool trick.

Game and Watch can footstool after his up-b, so be careful about that.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Oh freakin' MAN!

Epic team kill!.... ROFL!

Final destination: Snake & TL vs. Pika and Kirby

Kirby died early,
Snake just died....
TL vs. Pika left.

TL BCD's pika in the middle of the stage and Pika dies from a full-power proximity mine as he skids into it.

DEFINITELY GOING INTO THE VIDEO... probably at credits! ^_^

Pikachu (me, ironically i'm prone to getting hit by it... must be me thinkin' i can't die from it... letting my guard down? :/)
Snake (Hakaten)
TL (Arc-thefallen)
Kirby (Bobbi)

 

[Mota]

LOL! ^ Are you kidding, that actually happened in a match? Vids?

Too good if it was real

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

LOL! ^ Are you kidding, that actually happened in a match? Vids?

Too good if it was real

What was funny is that normally I never get hit by snake's downsmash... and snake was already dead. I should have teched somewhere in it (since i was skidding on the ground). DTL, if you get those teching footage... plz send them to me.

That incident leads me to wonder, what would happen if it was done near a wall or towards a teamate? Could a skidding opponent (who missed the tech) be jab-locked from there? (if water 1HKO wasn't enough... more delfino shenanigans) O_O

 

[prOAPC]

i did it in a real match the first time i tried it :D too good
now i'm be practicing it with short hop
is it possible to pull out a bomb and in the same short hop use this tech?

 

[Mota]

i did it in a real match the first time i tried it :D too good
now i'm be practicing it with short hop
is it possible to pull out a bomb and in the same short hop use this tech?

No I don't think so, we can barely get in a quickdraw let alone a bomb drop>dsmash.
Good thinking though.

 

[prOAPC]

it's showed in the video at 8:20 lol, i just watched it again
still looks like the timing is pretty strict

 

[Sosuke]

Is it possible to SH -> bomb pull -> ibomb -> Dsmash?

Yeah

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Actually, LegendaryPikachu told me a while ago, that Arc reckons it's possible to do a SH, Bomb Pull, Z-drop (Not Invincibomb), D-smash but you have to be like frame perfect. I haven't actually tested this myself, but maybe LP can confirm?

Edit: Yeah that's what he does @ 8:20. I'm guessing it works because the Bomb is still 'active' for that split second but I can't really see. Good old white aura.

 

[ASF1nk]

What was funny is that normally I never get hit by snake's downsmash... and snake was already dead. I should have teched somewhere in it (since i was skidding on the ground). DTL, if you get those teching footage... plz send them to me.

That incident leads me to wonder, what would happen if it was done near a wall or towards a teamate? Could a skidding opponent (who missed the tech) be jab-locked from there? (if water 1HKO wasn't enough... more delfino shenanigans) O_O

err...snake's mines disappear when he dies... must of been a c4.(unless he was still flying out of the screen)

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yep u can do SH>bomb pull>bomb drop>dsmash. It needs timing tho (isnt THAT hard) and the only kinda hard part is that sometimes dtilt comes out instead of dsmash because of Sakurai's dumb cstick tilts on landing. >_>

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wow! So that would make it the fastest way to perform it so far.

So now instead of a SH Bomb Pull Quickdraw, if we think they are to close and might punish, we can whip this out instead. This is already developing quite quickly. The more stuff like this we know, the less situational it is, and the more useful it becomes. (Thanks for confirming TLMS.)

 

[TLMSheikant]

TL requires tech skill lololol. Now I have to learn the exact timing of the landing into dsmash :/. I sometimes explode before the dsmash, do dtilt landing or I buffer way too soon >_>. *keeps trying*

 

[Lobos]

Good job with the video, I'll probably add this to my arsenal. Pretty sure I could gimp the entire cast

 

[professor mgw]

That's a cool AT, I'll consider it.