Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[da K.I.D.]

Can you just go away. Please? Your logic sucks, all your ideas are bad. Nobody likes you. and youre always wrong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doing what?

This:

You see, this is why people hate arguing with you. You don't even respond to the things people are actually saying, you try and put words into our mouths that you can counter, instead of dealing with the points presented.

Playstyle has to do with the player more than the character

Yes, it does.

Look at it this way:
SMJ: How are they better at the specific MU?
KID: Because of playstyle differences.
SMJ: That has to do more with the player than the MU.

Do you not see the problem with this? You didn't counter what K.I.D. said at all. You just pointed out an irrelevant fact about what he said (of course playstyle differences have more to do with the player, that was the point, he was saying that some people are better at the specific MU because they play it differently) and passed it off as a rebuttal.

The real problem? You do this
all
the
****ing
TIME

If you aren't going to argue properly, it might as well be considered spam. From this point forward I'm going to report all of your posts that do this as spam until you break the habit.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So what does that have to do with the MU? All that says is that certain players lose to certain players because of the play style differences. Common knowledge. Player play styles have nothing to do with match ups. The fact that a bunch of different Fox play styles are doing well against a certain character (MK) does

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So what does that have to do with the MU? All that says is that certain players lose to certain player because of the play style differences. Common knowledge.

...This is why results is not the only method that should determine match-ups...

Hold on, isn't that exactly what I've been saying since the beginning?

**** my life.

Player play styles have nothing to do with match ups. The fact that a bunch of different Fox play styles are doing well against a certain character (MK) does

A bunch of different MKs that you chose to ignore have been doing well against Foxes as well. I can't name them off the top of my head but this discussion has happened so many times before, I remember other people bringing them up.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

...This is why results is not the only method that should determine match-ups...

Hold on, isn't that exactly what I've been saying since the beginning?

**** my life.



A bunch of different MKs that you chose to ignore have been doing well against Foxes as well. I can't name them off the top of my head but this discussion has happened so many times before, I remember other people bringing them up.

Results are not the only method that should be used to determine MUs, but at high/top level play, it's pretty accurate when you get enough results.

Even if you could name those MKs, it wouldn't matter since MK also winning a few sets is expected from an even match up

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is he even good or no?

SoCal is probably like a dead Brawling place.

SoCal is stacked as ****. Jebus really should be taken as definite proof of the law "Just because you're a top player doesn't mean you have any idea what you're talking about".

The things people don't realize when discussing Meta Knight's match-ups:

1. Results aren't everything. MK clearly beats Fox in theory and to deny that would be stupid. If you went through all of MK's options and all of Fox's counters to those options and vice versa while weighing in risk/reward, MK would come out on top.

Oh look, theorycraft. I think I don't need to explain why theorycraft is a terrible justification for pretty much anything, right? If not, here's my explanation for why Marth is the best character in the game: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXwtH0C4A (almost all footage in that video was taken from tournament sets, often against top players).

Also, one thing you're missing while weighing risk-reward: MK doesn't have guaranteed early kill setups out of a ridiculously fast move, where setting up that move allows for fairly ridiculous yomi traps. Seriously, even if it's not "guaranteed", it means that the MK doesn't have nearly enough room for error. This is something that's often missed in matchup discussions–the room for error. Even players like M2K are humans-they make mistakes. It just so happens that against a lot of these characters, one mistake will cost you bitterly. It's a large part of why wario is a viable character at high levels. YES, MK has better frame data, traps, range, and options. Wario has to hit you like 5-6 times before you're in kill range.

2. 9 times out of 10 the non-MK player has more experience in the match-up than the MK player. In examples were both players are good friends or whatever and play each other heaps, the game becomes more player vs. player than player vs. character (unless it is a hard counter MU). This is apparent with match-ups like TKD vs. Tyrant.

...But doesn't this kinda trash the position entirely? If it becomes player vs. player, how can this possibly mean that the matchup is bad in any reasonable sense?

Can you just go away. Please? Your logic sucks, all your ideas are bad. Nobody likes you. and youre always wrong.

This.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also, one thing you're missing while weighing risk-reward: MK doesn't have guaranteed early kill setups out of a ridiculously fast move

....Yes he does, up-b bro.

Though I agree with the rest that people often forget that the way to win is by punishing your opponents mistakes.

The better character is the one who will make less mistakes, get punished less, force mistakes out of the opponent more and punish them harder.

 

[DMG]

Wario vs MK is bad. Don't talk about that MU unless you've played it extensively on either side. MK is one of Wario's hardest MU's for a reason.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

.Oh look, theorycraft. I think I don't need to explain why theorycraft is a terrible justification for pretty much anything, right? If not, here's my explanation for why Marth is the best character in the game: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXwtH0C4A (almost all footage in that video was taken from tournament sets, often against top players).

You are comparing logical theory-craft with crappy theory-craft in the form of a combo video.

All I'm saying is that results aren't everything and theory does play a part in how good a character's match-ups are.

Or do you think that Ganon is a better character than Puff because he wins more money (from memory, not sure if this is still true)?

Also, one thing you're missing while weighing risk-reward: MK doesn't have guaranteed early kill setups out of a ridiculously fast move, where setting up that move allows for fairly ridiculous yomi traps. Seriously, even if it's not "guaranteed", it means that the MK doesn't have nearly enough room for error. This is something that's often missed in matchup discussions–the room for error. Even players like M2K are humans-they make mistakes. It just so happens that against a lot of these characters, one mistake will cost you bitterly. It's a large part of why wario is a viable character at high levels. YES, MK has better frame data, traps, range, and options. Wario has to hit you like 5-6 times before you're in kill range.

Was this in response to something I said? Cause I wasn't talking about MK's options or whatever in my post at all, lol.

...But doesn't this kinda trash the position entirely? If it becomes player vs. player, how can this possibly mean that the matchup is bad in any reasonable sense?

Never claimed either of these things.

Honestly, don't be Jebus the 2nd, stop reading between the lines.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

For once I think Jebus is actually right. Fox does have a really good MU with MK. It doesn't make a difference though, he's still a broken POS imo.

 

[C.J.]

I don't think anyone thinks Fox doesn't have a *relatively* good MU vs MK. Most of us just don't see it being even =/

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@DMG: I'm aware of that; I play against pretty damn solid warios fairly often around here. Perhaps the way my post was put together could've been made better.

 

[Dre89]

BPC I don't understand your point about Mk's lack of fast set ups to kill options.

Shuttle Loop is broken and just requires the opponent be above you. Plus you have uair which is quick and surely a good set up for it. Downthrow puts them above you too.

You're also forgetting thar he can gimp most of the cast.

Besides, he doesn't need set up moves as much as other characters seeing as KO moves such as dsmash and SL are faster than most character's set up moves to begin with. He just needs to bait or pressure the oppononent into one if his KO options, which again he's definitely one of the best at.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Replace fast with reliable.

 

[Steam]

MK's setups put people in horrible positions, and it's pretty easy to get a reaction out of your opponents when they have to guess because they can't react to anything MK does.

 

[Strong Badam]

mk's banned guys idk why you're talking about him?

 

[Dre89]

Well...we are in a thread specifically about his ban....

 

[Napos]

Metaknight no longer da bess

 

[SaveMeJebus]

....Yes he does, up-b bro.

Though I agree with the rest that people often forget that the way to win is by punishing your opponents mistakes.

The better character is the one who will make less mistakes, get punished less, force mistakes out of the opponent more and punish them harder.

This isn't a problem since all this can be said about almost every best character in almost every game, not just MK

Also, BPC doesn't know what he is talking about. He may not have early kill set ups but he is the best character at gimping characters at low percentages.

 

[Tommy_G]

 

[Steam]

just go MK. 5 jumps and 2 glides should be plenty to make it to at least jupiter

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

....Yes he does, up-b bro.

If you are dying to that move early, either you are already ridiculously close to the blastzone (a position where most decent characters could kill you) or your DI is garbage. IIRC, Orion literally said that a few pages ago in this thread.

 

[Doc King]

I was ranked at one point but I never thought I should have been ranked since only the top 6 deserved it. Anyway, Fox vs. MK is even

Nope.

But it can be done in reality, so it does matter.

The point I am trying to make is that even if Mango can beat a ****load of good players with his Mario, Mario is still a fundamentally "meh" character. We know enough about the game's mechanics to say this with near-certainty.

Mario only got like a spot up the tier list because of Scorpion Master.

Wario vs MK is bad. Don't talk about that MU unless you've played it extensively on either side. MK is one of Wario's hardest MU's for a reason.

<Insert Character other than MK> vs. MK is bad.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13646460&postcount=5645

 

[Life]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13646460&postcount=5645

Showing MKs beating Fox isn't a legitimate argument against MK/Fox being even but showing Foxes beat MK is?

 

[Doc King]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13646460&postcount=5645

Alright lets summarize the matchup. Fox has a good up smash on mk, a good projectile which forces mk to approach, a decent up tilt, and some shine locks which are hard to perform if mk is always in the air. MK however can gimp Fox mad easy, mach tornado can combo Fox a lot, can up air combo Fox, can plank against him really good, and has a really nice shuttle loop against Fox.

Overall, this leads to the fact that mk vs. Fox is -1 for Fox.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Showing MKs beating Fox isn't a legitimate argument against MK/Fox being even but showing Foxes beat MK is?

I showed you guys that top Fox players can take games off of top MK players. You guys haven't showed me anything. All I,m saying is that even if you did, it wouldn't matter since in an even MU, both characters are expected to win.

 

[Doc King]

I showed you guys that top Fox players can take games off of top MK players. You guys haven't showed me anything. All I,m saying is that even if you did, it wouldn't matter since in an even MU, both characters are expected to win.

Yeah in Japan.

Jebus find some American videos of Fox's beating mks. Japan doesn't count towards the American metagame.

 

[Life]

I showed you guys that top Fox players can take games off of top MK players. You guys haven't showed me anything. All I,m saying is that even if you did, it wouldn't matter since in an even MU, both characters are expected to win.

Top Sonics take games off MK all the time. Sonic/MK must be even.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Alright lets summarize the matchup. Fox has a good up smash on mk, a good projectile which forces mk to approach, a decent up tilt, and some shine locks which are hard to perform if mk is always in the air. MK however can gimp Fox mad easy, mach tornado can combo Fox a lot, can up air combo Fox, can plank against him really good, and has a really nice shuttle loop against Fox.

Overall, this leads to the fact that mk vs. Fox is -1 for Fox.

@Doc King, you can't really just base a match up off of that. Shiek vs fox is only really in Shiek's favor because of the tilt lock. Wario vs DK is only really in Wario's favor because of the chain grab. A character may not have much against another character in a match up, but depending on how strong these options are, they can make some match ups even or turn them in their favor

 

[Eddie G]

You people sure do have a lot of time on your hands if you're dedicating it to a beaten horse of a discussion. Sheesh.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you are dying to that move early, either you are already ridiculously close to the blastzone (a position where most decent characters could kill you) or your DI is garbage. IIRC, Orion literally said that a few pages ago in this thread.

You don't have to die to the shuttle loop initially, because now you're in an incredibly ****ty position against the best character at gimping in the game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You people sure do have a lot of time on your hands. Sheesh.

Says the guy with 7,000+ posts

 

[Eddie G]

Says the guy with 7,000+ posts

Over the course of 5 years, half a decade. Your point?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Over the course of 5 years, half a decade. Your point?

My point is mind your own business. What do you care about what we do with our time?

 

[Doc King]

@Doc King, you can't really just base a match up off of that. Shiek vs fox is only really in Shiek's favor because of the tilt lock. Wario vs DK is only really in Wario's favor because of the chain grab. A character may not have much against another character in a match up, but depending on how strong these options are, they can make some match ups even or turn them in their favor

You just based Sheik vs. Fox and Wario vs. DK like how I did it, but with less detail.

Also you can't base matchups of the American metagame with Japan videos. I find it funny how you ignore the good points of the opposing argument towards yourself.

Also, you do base matchup on theory. That's the whole point in basing matchups.

 

[Yikarur]

Fox is the absolutely most boring character in this game.
why wasting so much time discussing about him :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

just go MK. 5 jumps and 2 glides should be plenty to make it to at least jupiter

That response was amazing.


@yika, what the hell are you talking about?
Fox is the flashiest most entertaining character in the game, because no matchup of his in the entire game should ever take more than 4 minutes.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You just based Sheik vs. Fox and Wario vs. DK like how I did it, but with less detail.

Also you can't base matchups of the American metagame with Japan videos. I find it funny how you ignore the good points of the opposing argument towards yourself.

Also, you do base matchup on theory. That's the whole point in basing matchups.

Not really. You said MK has a lot of options in the MU and Fox has a few. I'm saying that the few options he has on MK is all he needs to make the MU even (although I'm pretty sure he has more than just lasers and U-smash)

Why not? It's not like we are playing a completely different game. You can't really base a match up on theory because everything in theory is that. Just theory

 

[Dre89]

Why does the fact it's from Japan make a difference? It's not as if the characters are any different....