Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[John12346]

I know it was said already, but I'm completely aware that it's not possible to take all of the data, information, tournament matches, planking, etc. that has occurred over 3 years and make a direct case that MK was broken or even bannable.

The best we could do was show how MK passed the line that pro-ban members set, and attempt to show how he passed the much more lenient line that anti-ban members set, and even then, it still wouldn't really show anything, because all of these lines we've been drawing are completely arbitrary and there was no real precedent for what was considered broken beforehand.

TBH the best move to take would be to make an INFORMED poll(unlike the URC poll, where it was just the poll w/o information to read), where both sides dump in as much information as humanly possible about the MK debate, and see how many people believe that, given all of the information laid out on the table, if MK has crossed their own pre-determined lines about what they believe is broken.

John#s rockin' dat 5 page ninja

But yeah, perhaps it may or may not have been better if the URC's public poll had the actual arguments from both sides of the debate, much like the BBR's 4th ban debate did, so people could form their own informed opinions on whether or not MK crossed w/e line they had set in the first place.

I'm sure they had their own reasons for not giving any arguments from either side, perhaps to just see what the generalized public opinion was purely from the players' perspectives straight out of the tournament scene, free from any possible swaying either side could've done or something, but an informed poll defo. might've been something to try, for sure.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If memory serves, someone on the boards here told me Japan has an air time based tie-breaker(someone please, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong on this), which muffs MK's planking, scrooging, and air camping all in one,

Pretty sure this is incorrect. Either way, the 10-minute timer (which NL and DE are starting to adopt as well) gimps MK's ability to time you out way harder than the air time limit.

plus Frigate, Delfino, Brinstar, and RC are ALL not legal stages(again, correct me if I'm wrong).

Of ****ing course MK isn't going to dominate in Japan. Shouldn't it be pretty obvious?

So... By changing an arbitrary number (the timer) and removing two to four stages (Japan has four gone, EU has two), of which two have already been highly questioned with MK present or not, MK becomes less of a huge, metagame-shattering problem...

And this is a counter-argument?!

 

[C.J.]

Two stages I might agree with, but removing Frigate and Delphino as well just to keep MK in the game is far past unreasonable, BPC.

 

[John12346]

Pretty sure this is incorrect. Either way, the 10-minute timer (which NL and DE are starting to adopt as well) gimps MK's ability to time you out way harder than the air time limit.

I'm completely sure that there was at least one random arbitrary rule put into place in Japan's ruleset. LGL, scrooging limit, air time limit, I don't really remember, but there was at least one, and that in combination with the 10 minute timer will heavily gimp MK's timing out game, yeah.

So... By changing an arbitrary number (the timer) and removing two to four stages (Japan has four gone, EU has two), of which two have already been highly questioned with MK present or not, MK becomes less of a huge, metagame-shattering problem...

And this is a counter-argument?!

-___ -;

With all due respect, the point I'm trying to make is that we now have a reason behind there being a lack of MK dominance in Japan, despite him being bannable by the current NA ruleset, regardless of whether neither, one, or both rulesets are competitively sound.

Until this point is agreed upon, I don't really see a reason to move onto debating whether NA or Japan is using the "better" ruleset, as it were.

 

[Zankoku]

It was grand finals. He lost against his ICs and then switched

Ally won every single game in which he switched to Captain Falcon against both lain and Judge at that tournament. I should know, I was the one there to record it. :V

EDIT: Except for going Falcon against Ice Climbers. That was a horrible horrible idea.

 

[DeLux]

But yeah, perhaps it may or may not have been better if the URC's public poll had the actual arguments from both sides of the debate, much like the BBR's 4th ban debate did, so people could form their own informed opinions on whether or not MK crossed w/e line they had set in the first place.

I'm sure they had their own reasons for not giving any arguments from either side, perhaps to just see what the generalized public opinion was purely from the players' perspectives straight out of the tournament scene, free from any possible swaying either side could've done or something, but an informed poll defo. might've been something to try, for sure.

This is a great idea if we wanted skewed results and were testing the reading comprehension of the community. That wasn't the point of the poll. If we did this, the poll would have had no validity.

There's a reason why it's illegal to campaign at polling sites in modern day elections. There is a reason people are given the policy they are voting on and nothing more in modern day elections.

That reason is bias.

 

[Cassio]

How does the poll have any validity in the first place?

 

[Juushichi]

Because it's expected that as someone that is affected by the outcome that the person voting has earnestly put in the time to be informed on what they're voting on.

If not, then you're throwing caution to the wind or legitimately don't care. Both is the fault of the singular person and not the voting process itself. [Edit:] in most cases, mind you.

It seems like this would be obvious.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How does the poll have any validity in the first place?

Depends if people think polling is an appropriate use of getting the general consensus.

At the very least the most recent one had far more precautions put in place.

 

[Cassio]

Online voluntary polling. I mean, given the major inherent issues with the poll the URC threw up, I just find it odd to be nitpicky about procedure thats meant for legitimate polls. If anything Johns idea is an improvement on the flaws that exist with the original.

Not that Im big fans of these polls in the first place, but the criticism of one wrt the other looks silly.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Ally won every single game in which he switched to Captain Falcon against both lain and Judge at that tournament. I should know, I was the one there to record it. :V

EDIT: Except for going Falcon against Ice Climbers. That was a horrible horrible idea.

But he used Snake for the set win

 

[Zankoku]

Because Falcon against Ice Climbers is absolutely horrendous. He still had a 100% win-rate against Meta Knight and Wario with Falcon, most relevantly against Meta Knight.

Though it's notable that Falcon is one of those characters that, you know, you have bad match-ups with.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Because Falcon against Ice Climbers is absolutely horrendous. He still had a 100% win-rate against Meta Knight and Wario with Falcon.

It doesn't matter. The set wasn't won with solo Captain Falcon.

 

[Zankoku]

So because he didn't use Captain Falcon against Ice Climbers, his wins against Meta Knight don't count?

Sounds logical to me, I guess.

 

[_Kain_]

Why do you all argue with jebus? Guy just warps anything to his liking. Like how he argues it doesn't matter Ally won with Falcon against MK because he used Snake to beat ICs

Yet TKD uses MK to fight MK on Delfino and Brinstar but that's totally not relevant when hes arguing his point

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So because he didn't use Captain Falcon against Ice Climbers, his wins against Meta Knight don't count?

Sounds logical to me, I guess.

I've never heard of single matches being used to determine a match up. I'll believe that match up being even when he can actually take sets off of top solo MK mains

 

[da K.I.D.]

He did 1 better than taking the set from him, he FORCED HIM TO SWITCH CHARACTERS.

How is that not as good as winning a set to you?

 

[Zankoku]

I've never heard of single matches being used to determine a match up. I'll believe that match up being even when he can actually take sets off of top solo MK mains

FOW won a set against M2K once. He also double 2-stocked Tyrant at E4H Champs. Ness vs Meta Knight, even?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

He did 1 better than taking the set from him, he FORCED HIM TO SWITCH CHARACTERS.

How is that not as good as winning a set to you?

It doesn't matter. At that time, I'm pretty sure Judge mained Wario and seconded MK. Same with Lain (not too sure though)

@Aisight, right now, we only have Fow doing well against MK with Ness

 

[_Kain_]

Nominee for best troll in the world

He's got my vote

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

[yt]AKIxu669Y_A[/yt]

Must be even.

 

[Zankoku]

@Aisight, right now, we only have Fow doing well against MK with Ness

Shaky took a set from Seibrik too. So no, it's not only FOW. Obviously all the other Ness players just haven't been looking into the match-up enough.

I mean, that's the reasoning you're giving for stuff like Fox, right?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I've named three Foxes that have taken sets off top MKs (and one that took a game off M2K). Maybe if you start seeing more players take sets off of top level MKs with Ness, the match up might not be as bad as players say it is.

 

[Cassio]

Is the discussion here that MK vs Fox isnt even or that the way Jebus is presenting it is dumb?

 

[Zankoku]

I think Jebus is too busy talking about how Fox vs Meta Knight is even citing a positive win/loss record as support. Evidently it takes a winning record to claim being even against Meta Knight.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What do you guys have to prove this match up is not even? Theorycraft?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If it's INDEED even, then the entire win/loss ratio of every match would be 50/50. As in every American VS American(and Canada where the same ruleset applies) would have an equal ratio.

However, we all know this isn't exactly the case. The problem is, nobody in the American moveset has an advantage over MK. We also know this.

Characters do have an advantage over Fox. That means in the overall match-ups, Fox isn't as good as MK. MK's better here. Individual match-ups are great and all, but that means nothing when you compare all the match-ups. It means that MK still is the best overall, and nobody actually is on par with him overall.

This isn't hard to understand at all. Yes, MK is the best character since he has no overall weaknesses. Everybody else does. No character is 100% even with him, because they have weaknesses.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If it's INDEED even, then the entire win/loss ratio of every match would be 50/50. As in every American VS American(and Canada where the same ruleset applies) would have an equal ratio.

However, we all know this isn't exactly the case. The problem is, nobody in the American moveset has an advantage over MK. We also know this.

Characters do have an advantage over Fox. That means in the overall match-ups, Fox isn't as good as MK. MK's better here. Individual match-ups are great and all, but that means nothing when you compare all the match-ups. It means that MK still is the best overall, and nobody actually is on par with him overall.

This isn't hard to understand at all. Yes, MK is the best character since he has no overall weaknesses. Everybody else does. No character is 100% even with him, because they have weaknesses.

But we are talking about his even match ups, not the other character's bad match ups. Also, MK is the best character in the game. Of corse he's going to have better match ups than every other character in the game

 

[da K.I.D.]

Nominee for best troll in the world

He's got my vote

This

Is the discussion here that MK vs Fox isnt even or that the way Jebus is presenting it is dumb?

Much more so the latter, but a small amount of the former as well.

What do you guys have to prove this match up is not even? Theorycraft?

What do you have to prove the matchup IS even? Essentially youre just taking a few isolated incidents, and theorycrafting a conclusion based on it. What youre doing is no less theorycraft than what everyone else is doing. Which is why you are awful at this and need to stop posting.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A few? It's more than just a few, especially when you consider the fact that the match up is not played very often at high/top level

 

[da K.I.D.]

There are just as many vids out of their of really good MKs losing to Ganon and Captain Falcon as there are of him losing to fox. Metaknights are out there, everywhere, all the time. of course theyre going to lose to random characters once in a while.

that doesnt change the fact that your taking videos and theorycrafting conclusions from them. which makes you no better than those you try to comdemn.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But we are talking about his even match ups, not the other character's bad match ups. Also, MK is the best character in the game. Of corse he's going to have better match ups than every other character in the game

You're not getting the point. Yes, some characters go even with MK. Every character has an even match-up. But they also have a bad match-up.

The entire point is that all you're getting at is that MK isn't as powerful as we're making him out to be, which isn't true whatsoever.

Also, you can't cherrypick the match-ups like with the Falcon one. The fact of the matter is, any character can possibly go even with him in any match-up due to the skill of the player or bad luck. But here's another thing: His even match-ups are only consistent after the LGL exists. If he still has them after we remove that silly rule, would MK still go even with characters, or would he not? Then I can believe he really has even match-ups. Because as of right now, the results are skewed due to a rule that changes the gameplay style and limits his options.

Or in other words, his current ratios are based upon a nerfed Meta Knight. This cannot be denied, as it's actually true.

You need to provide every single showing of Meta Knight VS a character in this year, with every single match, not just set, then we can truly say he's even. And that's WITH the lgl.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There are just as many vids out of their of really good MKs losing to Ganon and Captain Falcon as there are of him losing to fox. Metaknights are out there, everywhere, all the time. of course theyre going to lose to random characters once in a while.

that doesnt change the fact that your taking videos and theorycrafting conclusions from them. which makes you no better than those you try to comdemn.

Hell no. Friendlies don't count. It's not just once in a while that they lose to Fox. I've already named three different Fox players that have taken games off of top MKs

@Hyperfalcon, we need a ledge grab limit. It helps prevent the game from centralizing around ledge play. Even if MK was banned, we still need a LGL

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@SaveMeJebus: Nobody broken the ledge at any time except MK. Remove MK from the equation. Is there any broken ledge play still? We don't know. We never had it without MK. Remove it and see what happens. It's better to test it without it. It was already implemented too quickly, which means players never had to practice to beat the ledge play. Also, what's wrong with ledge play here? It's a perfectly legit way to play the game. You say walk-offs are legit, but ledge play isn't? See the hypocrisy here?

We don't need it whatsoever. You think we do because it's been around so long. But the reality is is that what we needed was an MK nerf, not a LGL. Remove it, test it without MK. If it's as problemsome as we thought it was, it can be re-implemented. Until then, it's an arbitary rule that's not even as easy to implement as you think it is. There's absolutely NO WAY to tell if a person was stalling on the ledge OR recovering. Rule doesn't work very well.

 

[Cassio]

As I said before MK's ledgeplay was theorized but never proven to be literally broken. From my perspective as a pikachu player I dont find it to be broken and feel it doesnt affect the pika-MK MU difficulty, which if you believe the MU chart (I understand many dont) is currently set to even. It also has the potential of assisting pika in the MU. However I also dont think its worth seriously speculating how MUs might change if no lgl had been in place.

Whether MK's planking was broken or not it was still really bad for the game. Same could easily be said of planking in general. Maybe you can draw the line between them, but you can't exactly say one is better than the other.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The point is that nobody has nearly as good of planking as him. Does anyone actually have nearly as good or almost unbeatable planking? No. Thus, the only real reason for the LGL is because it's an old rule, which was indeed used to nerf MK. It's only there for other characters so it doesn't look like we're completely targeting MK. Which indeed, no other character has proven to even need it but MK. It's still an MK nerf. The other characters never had the chance to show if theirs was unbeatable at all, right? Which means there's no proof the rest of the cast needs it.

Remove it for now as long as MK is banned. We don't have proof it's needed as is. In fact, changing the match-ups because of it means the game'll evolve. Why is that a bad thing here?

 

[Cassio]

There was never proof it was needed for MK either. Honestly it becomes subjective, and regardless of whether either is beatable it turns into a powerful, (semi)-degenerative tactic that would cause uproars and potentially kill the game.

 

[_Kain_]

There was never proof it was needed for MK either. Honestly it becomes subjective, and regardless of whether either is beatable it turns into a powerful, (semi)-degenerative tactic that would cause uproars and potentially kill the game.

There is actually plenty of proof it was needed for MK.

Go watch certain matches. You can clearly see why

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You can also watch certain matchs (Will vs Rich, Will vs. ADHD) and clearly see why we need a LGL for other characters

 

[_Kain_]

You can also watch certain matchs(Will vs Rich, Will vs. ADHD) and clearly see why we need a LGL for other characters

Except Rich could of done stuff to stop it, which he didnt. Except many other characters other than Olimar are capable of beating it with options. In other words.

You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not about to argue with your ring around the rosie *** so don't respond to me no more kthxbye