Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[da K.I.D.]

You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not about to argue with your ring around the rosie *** so don't respond to me no more kthxbye

why Kain is one of my favorite people.

 

[Strong Badam]

I enjoy the game being centralized at the ledge. LGL prevents me from enjoying this game. I think it should be removed.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Kain, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

 

[Cassio]

Thats why I said its a matter of where you draw the line. Is MK's planking unbeatable? It was never quite proven and as I said from my perspective as a pika player I've never felt it was. Im pretty sure other pikachu players feel the same.

I agree there was sufficient proof to add an lgl. I also believe there is sufficient proof that one should exist for the cast in general. Subjective matter that a very large portion of the community agrees with, so an lgl on the entire cast exists. However there was never sufficient proof to show either was unbeatable.

As a side note, the lower lgl on MK was stupid. If it was some odd attempt to be fair, then pikas lgls shouldve been doubled since his frames on the ledge are halved. Thats considerably less fair than MK having a similar lgl to the rest of the cast, but in really everyone shouldve just had the same lgl.

 

[_Kain_]

LGL doesn't prevent anything really.

Grab the ledge as many times as you want

Your ******* fault if it goes to time and you grabbed the ledge that many times without KOing your opponent. Then you deserved to be DQed, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Zankoku]

I enjoy the game being centralized at the ledge. LGL prevents me from enjoying this game. I think it should be removed.

I think you've already made it really clear what you think of Brawl. No need to continue fishing for comments.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

nothing

10nothings

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@Cassie: Nobody really has beaten it consistently. Keep in mind that if we didn't put the LGL in the first place, we could tell if anybody's planking was beatable or not. We still put it in too early without enough testing. We only put in the LGL because of MK. That's not subjective here, as that's the exact reason it existed in the first place. Which means that he was the problem.

Also, as gone over before in another topic, planking is not 100% defineable, which means that the rule doesn't prevent a thing. As earlier said before some posts up. It's not needed at all. So far, if MK's planking isn't broken, then nobody's is either. Which means that a LGL has no reason to exist. MK's was the best at planking, right? We both know that. So, it was made to stop MK's, and only applies to the rest of the case because they just happen to be able to plank, but once again, does anybody have good enough planking? You've named no names whatsoever here. Just MK's planking.

 

[Cassio]

Lgls dont stop planking, just their worst affects. Just like a timer doesnt stop camping, just the worst effects. Id disagree that the lgl exists solely for MK, thats opinion. I also see the merit in keeping it now.

But as I said its completely subjective. We simply have to agree to disagree.

I think you've already made it really clear what you think of Brawl. No need to continue fishing for comments.

I dont see why this was necessary. He was making a point just like everyone else in here and he makes smart posts. I cant see your thread but I dont see people up in arms about his posting either.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're not reading what I'm saying: It was made solely because of MK. There is no merit if it doesn't stop planking, it's intended effect.

The point is that we should test it first to see if the merit exists. It was put in way too early, which is not subjective here. We don't need if any other planking would've been broken or a problem whatsoever. I'm not saying it couldn't be. But why shouldn't we make sure that everybody's else planking is a problem? It was clear that MK's was the only problemsome one, as it was MADE FOR HIM only. Thus, it's just a rule that doesn't have an actual place right now since the problem does not exist in this ruleset.

You're saying we shouldn't give the other characters a chance to prove that it's needed. If it's subjective, then there's no reason to not atleast test if it really is needed. I say it's not, you say it is. So, let's prove it's needed then. That's what I'm saying specifically. PROVE IT, not say it as objective.

 

[Doc King]

not everyone lol.......
he can put characters in bad positions but they aren't screwed offstage.


so?
If Yui does so much better in the MU than our Fox's then what he's doing is probably a better approach to the MU than our Fox's. Trying to discredit it because they play differently is stupid.




Thanks for taking the time to tell me that my main is bad. I mean, it's not like I'm you and think my main is the most underrated character in the game.


has ally even beaten any top MKs with Falcon? I remember him using falcon against Ally a really long time ago and losing, but other than that I don't remember him beating top MKs with Falcon.

That's what I said. lol.

If random scrubs are saying that D3 is a low tier character, then he definately is underrated by scrubs.

Also, check these results I got from a tourney. http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=11273

7 out of 25 going all D3 and all of the matchup's I've played were considered bad matchups for D3, except for one match against a Lucario.

This is a gross oversimplification of the match-up.

PROS FOR FOX:
-One of the few match-ups where MK always has to approach.
-Is KO'd early from mistakes because of Fox's running Up Smash.
-Fast tilts and walk-speed allowing him to combat MK's amazing ground game somewhat. Meta Knight's mix-ups with Ftilt/Dtilt/ISL/Dsmash are still superior overall due to their speed, range and power.
-1 Frame invincible move that stalls in the air to mess with Meta Knight's juggling game. This is basically inconsequential for an MK who knows the match-up. Shine has ending lag, so the MK can hover and bait it out with a whiffed uair.
-Falls fast, making him faster overall and giving MK less time to setup his "space coverage".

CONS FOR FOX:
-Still gets juggled...
-Still gets gimped with relative ease...
-Is out-ranged on the ground by MK's ftilt...
-Is light...

People have been saturized by MK being amazing for so long that when they think "Oh, this character can counter MK's x, y and z, its an even match-up.

NO.

NO, NO, NO.

MK still has all of his amazing tools that everyone takes for granted due to familiarity.

As long as MK plays the MU conservatively, he is fine.



Theory has its place in match-up discussion.



If you don't go to tournaments, this rule won't affect you, obviously.



The only people who think Fox is good off-stage against MK are people who have no idea that MK can counter rising fair if he isn't a ******, lol.



Having items legal is bad, having Meta Knight's broken stalling is bad, why do we have to choose to support only one of them?

That's a better explanation of the matchup. Sorry, I don't know the matchup that well.

MK's planking has been proved broken through frame data.
The "anti-planking method" will just get you gimped 99% of the time.

Also turning items off is as arbitrary as keeping them off, not a hard concept...

I'm just wondering, but is mk's planking when he down b's to the ledge or when he up airs near the ledge?

What do you guys have to prove this match up is not even? Theorycraft?

Yup. And good theorycraft too.

But we are talking about his even match ups, not the other character's bad match ups. Also, MK is the best character in the game. Of corse he's going to have better match ups than every other character in the game

What even matchups?

You're not getting the point. Yes, some characters go even with MK. Every character has an even match-up. But they also have a bad match-up.

The entire point is that all you're getting at is that MK isn't as powerful as we're making him out to be, which isn't true whatsoever.

Also, you can't cherrypick the match-ups like with the Falcon one. The fact of the matter is, any character can possibly go even with him in any match-up due to the skill of the player or bad luck. But here's another thing: His even match-ups are only consistent after the LGL exists. If he still has them after we remove that silly rule, would MK still go even with characters, or would he not? Then I can believe he really has even match-ups. Because as of right now, the results are skewed due to a rule that changes the gameplay style and limits his options.

Or in other words, his current ratios are based upon a nerfed Meta Knight. This cannot be denied, as it's actually true.

You need to provide every single showing of Meta Knight VS a character in this year, with every single match, not just set, then we can truly say he's even. And that's WITH the lgl.

MK would go +4 on everyone with no ledge grab limit.

I enjoy the game being centralized at the ledge. LGL prevents me from enjoying this game. I think it should be removed.

I think so too. Dumbest ruleset ever.

 

[Cassio]

Rich spent several hundred dollars to fly to WHOBO and lose to planking thats unreasonable to attempt to stop.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312219

Maybe thats not enough proof for you, but it is for me. And it is for most of the community. I dont want to see something like that happen again.

Once again, subjective. Its not that I dont get your point, youre bothered because I dont agree with you, but we simply have a different point of view.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Didn't they figure out how to beat DK's planking too? Oh, wait, they did. See? They didn't jump the gun and made sure it wasn't unbeatable through practice. It takes more than a one-shot to prove that. My point stands even more. Test it without it now that the true offender is gone.

@Doc King: If MK isn't there with the LGL, then we can see if it really is a problem. Right now, MK's banned, so that means that the LGL doesn't have a defineable purpose, which was to nerf MK in the first place. Not to get rid of planking. Planking can't be defined, but MK being best than the cast can be. The fact of the matter is, he's the only one that actually shows it's needed. Nobody else actually does. DK's is beatable, as people went and beat it. It took some difficulty, but it was quite beatable, same with Pit's. This doesn't apply to MK or even close to. MK's the problem, not DK or Pit's.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No one is stopping anyone from hosting a tournament without a LGL

 

[Cassio]

They actually showed the opposite if youd read the thread...but you cant seem to view your opinion as anything other than truth, so I suppose Im done.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Buddy, they beat DK's planking. That's actually what happened. If MK's is beatable too, which you're saying, then the LGL has no reason to exist either. Since planking is completely beatable, why do we need something to nerf it? See the logic here?

As I said, you have no reason to have it up here. Remove it and test the waters without an arbitary rule that is hard enough to enforce due to not knowing if they were planking or recovering. Rule doesn't work as is.

 

[Doc King]

Didn't they figure out how to beat DK's planking too? Oh, wait, they did. See? They didn't jump the gun and made sure it wasn't unbeatable through practice. It takes more than a one-shot to prove that. My point stands even more. Test it without it now that the true offender is gone.

@Doc King: If MK isn't there with the LGL, then we can see if it really is a problem. Right now, MK's banned, so that means that the LGL doesn't have a defineable purpose, which was to nerf MK in the first place. Not to get rid of planking. Planking can't be defined, but MK being best than the cast can be. The fact of the matter is, he's the only one that actually shows it's needed. Nobody else actually does. DK's is beatable, as people went and beat it. It took some difficulty, but it was quite beatable, same with Pit's. This doesn't apply to MK or even close to. MK's the problem, not DK or Pit's.

DK's planking definately looks beatable. Things like Wolf's down B, Ganon's down air, Dedede's down air, Fox's down air, etc. looks like they can get around it pretty good. Pit all you gotta do is edge hog quickly. Fox and Falco in melee have a worse version of Pit where they actually attack while cancelling their up b's. So if Fox and Falco can do this with lgl, then so should Pit.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No one is stopping anyone from hosting a tournament without a LGL

[yt]uSAKWpppVJY[/yt]

Already done.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

DK's planking definately looks beatable. Things like Wolf's down B, Ganon's down air, Dedede's down air, Fox's down air, etc. looks like they can get around it pretty good. Pit all you gotta do is edge hog quickly. Fox and Falco in melee have a worse version of Pit where they actually attack while cancelling their up b's. So if Fox and Falco can do this with lgl, then so should Pit.

The point is, they're all beatable, as people keep saying. People only believe they're beatable with an LGL because it was put in very early in the life of this scene. If it's not beatable without it, well, wait, we can't know that because the LGL is literally limiting our options. There is no proof that any planking is broken right now.(especially since people don't believe MK's is) Which means there's no reason for the LGL to exist because we have no proof.

This is why it simply needs to be removed. Also, if MK's wasn't the best, his LGL would be the same as everybody else's. Clearly, MK's is the only one that could be called a problem by this alone. Long story short, remove it, make sure the planking is an actual problem through extensive testing, and put it back if it's actually proven to be needed(which is not the case right now).

I am not saying Planking CAN'T be a problem, but will it truly be? No proof, since the only mention of a powerful planker beyond MK was DK, who was still beaten soon enough anyway. Honestly, a one-time use of a good tactic does not prove it's unbeatable in any possible way.

 

[Ripple]

you need to define "beatable"

DK's planking is easily beatable. maybe not easily by olimar but he can beat it, he just has a ****ty recovery, so if he get's hit, he dies.


seriously, you people

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Simply put, if atleast one character can stop the planking, it's beatable. To what I know, anybody's planking can be beatable regardless of the LGL. All the LGL does is lesson the amount of planking, not allowing anyone to beat it. So whatever its purpose was, it's lost as is. Does it stop planking? No. Can we define what use of the ledge was planking, and what the rest was recovering? No. It has no actual purpose in the rule list as of right now. And it still caters to MK anyway. So I really doubt planking was ever a problem in the first place.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As I said before MK's ledgeplay was theorized but never proven to be literally broken. From my perspective as a pikachu player I dont find it to be broken and feel it doesnt affect the pika-MK MU difficulty, which if you believe the MU chart (I understand many dont) is currently set to even. It also has the potential of assisting pika in the MU. However I also dont think its worth seriously speculating how MUs might change if no lgl had been in place.

Whether MK's planking was broken or not it was still really bad for the game. Same could easily be said of planking in general. Maybe you can draw the line between them, but you can't exactly say one is better than the other.

I want a MM with no LGL sometime, MK vs. Pikachu

There was never proof it was needed for MK either. Honestly it becomes subjective, and regardless of whether either is beatable it turns into a powerful, (semi)-degenerative tactic that would cause uproars and potentially kill the game.

A poweful tactic?

Hmm. Consider this, if we never discovered meteor-cancelling, meteor smashes would be a more powerful tactic, no?

We put the LGL in before we started utilizing the various tools the game gave us to combat planking, so you really can't say it will be as powerful as it was.

Rich spent several hundred dollars to fly to WHOBO and lose to planking thats unreasonable to attempt to stop.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312219

Maybe thats not enough proof for you, but it is for me. And it is for most of the community. I dont want to see something like that happen again.

Once again, subjective. Its not that I dont get your point, youre bothered because I dont agree with you, but we simply have a different point of view.

This reminds me of that time DLA flew to Antarctica to play in a Smash tournament and his Ganondorf lost to an Ice Climbers player spamming Blizzard, DLA *****ed and moaned for days and everyone was very sympathetic until we added a Blizzard limit.

Oh wait, holy **** guys, that never happened.

 

[Cassio]

This reminds me of that time DLA flew to Antarctica to play in a Smash tournament and his Ganondorf lost to an Ice Climbers player spamming Blizzard, DLA *****ed and moaned for days and everyone was very sympathetic until we added a Blizzard limit.

Oh wait, holy **** guys, that never happened.

This was our main disagreement. My response is, it depends. I dont think its worth the risk of harming community moral for the sake of principle. Disillusioned players stop attending tournaments, and depending on the severity its not worth it imo. Granted part of the reason I say that is because I feel its something we've done before with the timer and items. If you honestly feel the only things we've banned thus far are things that are broken I'd understand whyd push to maintain principle.

And yeah Id do a pika vs MK planking MM, lol.

 

[Chuee]

This reminds me of that time DLA flew to Antarctica to play in a Smash tournament and his Ganondorf lost to an Ice Climbers player spamming Blizzard, DLA *****ed and moaned for days and everyone was very sympathetic until we added a Blizzard limit.

Oh wait, holy **** guys, that never happened.

I mean, if you're going to use an example for something like that, at least a character besides ganon...
@DK's planking being beatable with olimar
He can hit DK out of his up-b with Fsmash however
1. The weak hitbox doesn't kill.
2. If DK reads it, it's a free getup attack.

 

[Life]

I heard something about Oli's dtilt?

 

[san.]

And if DK is >= 100%, DK has no safe offensive options that reaches that far into the stage, without a lot of preparation (like a ledge release B reverse to jump+bair).

 

[Ripple]

I heard something about Oli's dtilt?

No. While it hits low, DK can just up air him. Not worth it at all

 

[DMG]

You guys are silly

MK planking is noticeably better than everyone elses. MK planking alone warrants a limit of some kind or removal of the character. Argue what you want besides this, any other view point is wrong. "I can't tell if MK planks better than Pikachu or G^W". Yeah you can, it's called HUZZAH I AM MK.

LGL on other characters is fine for an enjoyable tournament experience. MK out of the game and LGL on is probably the most enjoyable version of Brawl frankly. Besides items on banned stages legal for goofing off.

Please don't get silly again and have me explain this all over again. MK planking > everyone elses. MK planking = holy **** balls we HAVE to do something. Other character planking = Eh, this is kinda gay maybe we will enjoy the game better if we limit it (not a bad idea).

 

[Masky]

MK planking alone warrants a limit of some kind or removal of the character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxamlkYAqI#t=16m05s

Not really. Everyone is just a scrub.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@DMG: I agree on the MK Planking.(whether or not it's beatable is kind of subjective for sure)

But why can't we atleast try the tournaments mainstream without a LGL to see if it's really needed? If planking is a problem, let's overcome the problem before trying to fix it. Because that's what the LGL did, a hard to enforce rule that "supposedly" fixes it, which many people say it really doesn't prevent it, making the whole point irrelevant. Also, the whole keeping everyone happy won't mean a thing if they can't try to evolve the game. Right now, we're limiting our options for no feasible reason.

 

[Ripple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxamlkYAqI#t=16m05s

Not really. Everyone is just a scrub.

I don't see the point in linking to a doubles video. People don't plank in doubles because its nearly impossible/ not a good tactic. Unless you have anubis. And or are losing

Edit: on phone and can't link to the time in the vid. Nvm

 

[Thino]

MK planking is noticeably better than everyone elses. MK planking alone warrants a limit of some kind or removal of the character.

I really don't understand the 1st sentence infers the 2nd one.

explain in details.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I mean, if you're going to use an example for something like that, at least a character besides ganon...
@DK's planking being beatable with olimar
He can hit DK out of his up-b with Fsmash however
1. The weak hitbox doesn't kill.
2. If DK reads it, it's a free getup attack.

I used Ganon for the example intentionally. The point I was trying to make was that in this game, some characters just get hard countered by gay tactics and we need to live with that, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxamlkYAqI#t=16m05s

Not really. Everyone is just a scrub.

Thats a mighty risky option considering MK can do basically anything after the uair, but you are locked into drifting off-stage and trying to hit him xD

If he air dodges, jumps away from your attack, waits and shuttle loops, etc... You are in a worse position than you were before.

 

[da K.I.D.]

DK gets to plank olimar really easily and gets infinited by ddd. seems like a fair trade off to me...

 

[Masky]

Thats a mighty risky option considering MK can do basically anything after the uair, but you are locked into drifting off-stage and trying to hit him xD

If he air dodges, jumps away from your attack, waits and shuttle loops, etc... You are in a worse position than you were before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

No, once you fall off the stage whatever you choose to do is guaranteed. The only risk is predicting that the MK will plank. If you predict that they'll plank (buffer a uair off the edge), MK instantly dies/gets spiked depending on the character you're using.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Regardless, MK can just grab the ledge if you are sitting there in your shield lol.

 

[Ripple]

I'd love for anyone to get that down considering it's a 1 frame window to hit him. and that's if he attacks, and is falling while attacking, and if you get ISSDI, and you perfectly buffer a dair

lol, keep dreaming masky

 

[Masky]

Regardless, MK can just grab the ledge if you are sitting there in your shield lol.

Watch the video. It's a mixup. If MK predicts you're going to anti-plank them, then you need to predict that and punish them for just sitting on the edge.

I'd love for anyone to get that down

I just linked to a video where Atomsk did it on his second try. That's an example of someone having it "down".

considering it's a 1 frame window to hit him. and that's if he attacks, and is falling while attacking

Depending on the attack you can buffer it, so it's not a "1 frame window". The example in the video uses buffering with Diddy. And "falling while attacking", what, isn't that what planking is? I mean of course you can only beat MK's planking if MK chooses to plank in the first place, that's common sense

if you get ISSDI, and you perfectly buffer a dair

Those things are determined completely by player skill... isn't that the point of competition, to test skill?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Masky, just because he did it one time (with a move that takes 2 minutes to charge) doesnt mean that its a reliable counter to a degenerative tactic, anymore than jebus linking to one japanese vid means that fox vs mk is an even matchup

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Watch the video. It's a mixup. If MK predicts you're going to anti-plank them, then you need to predict that and punish them for just sitting on the edge.

I don't understand, if the person is sitting there in their shield they are obviously trying to coax you into doing an uair, in that situation MK just... doesn't uair.

If you see them commit to something other than shield, then you use uair lol, or just fast-fall down and wait for their attack to finish so you can SL them.