Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[SaveMeJebus]

^ These are the arguments you get when you show Pro-ban players a video of an MK that actually knows the match up, lose to a Fox that also knows the match up. This MU is 50-50 at top level play even when both players know the MU.

Also,@ Judo, The fact that something that ******** isn't common place in America just demonstrates that players would rather ban a character than actually learn a MU. The point I was trying to prove was that Japanese Foxes punished more for their mistakes in the MK match up than American Foxes and yet, they can still win.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm pro-ban?

Also, the video you showed was kinda dumb. A 2-stock, followed by a close win (for Rain) that came even after getting gimped at 16%, followed by another 2-stock, is hardly indicative of "knowing the match-up", or it being even were that even the case. If anything, the match can either be argued to show that YUI was that much better than Rain, or that the play between them was highly volatile.

I got more out of watching TKD's matches in recent E4 tournaments.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There are more players that have beaten top level MKs with Fox

Meep took a game off of M2K with his Fox at MLG (then lost the set with ICs)
Trevonte has beaten Tyrant and TKD's MK
Zeaton has beaten Tyrant and I heard that he also beat Ally's MK

 

[Zankoku]

Don't take this opportunity to dodge.

I'm telling you that I got more out of watching an "even match-up" played evenly than I did watching Fox **** MK for two games.

I don't really care to talk about instances of one guy taking a game (or even a set) off of another guy with a certain character against MK. What does that even matter? If you want to show something, you show top level play against top level play. You don't show a set where Rain got 2-stocked twice, and you certainly don't mention games and sets of hearsay.

 

[Judo777]

^ These are the arguments you get when you show Pro-ban players a video of an MK that actually knows the match up, lose to a Fox that also knows the match up. This MU is 50-50 at top level play even when both players know the MU.

Also,@ Judo, The fact that something that ******** isn't common place in America just demonstrates that players would rather ban a character than actually learn a MU. The point I was trying to prove was that Japanese Foxes punished more for their mistakes in the MK match up than American Foxes and yet, they can still win.

If the MU is truly even, and they both know it, and they are both top level..... why is one losing horribly? Like that doesn't make any sense. In fact the only thing your video demonstrates is that the fox is way better or that the MU is heavily in foxes favor, those are the only 2 conclusions that can be drawn from just that match.

Also my first point was that he DIDN'T punish the tornado (because he couldn't in that situation) so I pointed out one example of someone not punishing something, then you say "see they DO punish MK's mistakes."

Finally and most stupidly your last statement is not even remotely parallel to what you have demonstrated. "The fact that something that ******** isn't common place in America just demonstrates that players would rather ban a character than actually learn a MU." We are talking about MK's not knowing how to hit foxes out of Utilt right? Then why did you bring up that something implying people not knowing the MK MU? Cause thats what you are stating. Unless I'm mistaken and we in fact banned fox here in the states. TBH you saying the US MK's don't know the MU well enough to do simple stuff like nair foxes utilt if anything demonstrates that US MK's DON'T know the MU an as a result lose from time to time.

All of your points are backwards and don't make sense.

 

[Conviction]

All of your points are backwards and don't make sense.

You sound surprised.

 

[Doc King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOL97EZ7pc

To all you who doubt this is an even MU

Wrong country Jebus.

There should be a LGL for every character in the game and Rain won on his CP so the stage list really would not have mattered

Lgl should be gone period. Dumbest ruleset ever. Characters can just edge hog the stage to break invincible planking strategies.

Let's ban slippery slopes

NO!

^ These are the arguments you get when you show Pro-ban players a video of an MK that actually knows the match up, lose to a Fox that also knows the match up. This MU is 50-50 at top level play even when both players know the MU.

Also,@ Judo, The fact that something that ******** isn't common place in America just demonstrates that players would rather ban a character than actually learn a MU. The point I was trying to prove was that Japanese Foxes punished more for their mistakes in the MK match up than American Foxes and yet, they can still win.

Jebus, just because you showed us a JAPAN video of a Fox beating mk doesn't prove that Fox vs. MK is even here in America. Japan and America do not have the same metagame.

Also Jebus, do you ever go to tournaments? Cause it looks like you know nothing of this metagame.

 

[Conviction]

He is ranked in SoCal...it's painful saying that

 

[Doc King]

He is ranked in SoCal...it's painful saying that

Is he even good or no?

SoCal is probably like a dead Brawling place.

 

[Zankoku]

SoCal is pretty good, and likely to be the strongest west coast "region" presently. Jebus isn't ranked, though.

 

[Doc King]

I was just kidding with the SoCal thing because I've heard that Jebus was ranked.

Well things make sense now.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I was ranked at one point but I never thought I should have been ranked since only the top 6 deserved it. Anyway, Fox vs. MK is even

 

[Eddie G]

I was ranked at one point but I never thought I should have been ranked since only the top 6 deserved it. Anyway, Fox vs. MK is even

In an EXTREMELY conservative ruleset, maybe. In ours (the commonly implemented counterpicks and whatnot)...not so much.

 

[Life]

I lost to a Lucario once as MK. Lucario-MK must be even gaiz

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I lost to a Lucario once as MK. Lucario-MK must be even gaiz

Comparing yourself to top level players?

 

[Life]

I was on Brinstar and everything.

 

[infiniteV115]

LMAO
InCom2gud

 

[Steam]

Junebug beat M2K. It's obv in lucario's favor.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yui being undefeated (or nearly undefeated) in the MU
TKD taking multiple sets off of Tyrant and taking a set off of Atomsk
Trevonte taking a set off of Tyrant
Zeaton taking a set off of Tyrant and Ally's MK

Fox has a better win/loss ratio against MK in the last two years than any other character in the game.

 

[DeLux]

Can you give me approx win/loss ratios over the last two years for fox vs. MK?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Can you give me approx win/loss ratios over the last two years for fox vs. MK?

Maybe I should get rid of that part but I can't put up that many wins for any other character

 

[DeLux]

Don't get me wrong, I love Tyrant and all having gotten the opportunity to sit and talk metagame with him the couple times I visited Socal, but what you listed just indicates to me he has issues with the Fox matchup despite having large amounts of experience.

For example, I know Zeton loses to Domo, KS's MK main. While Domo is good and vastly underrated, he still doesn't have that Elite/Top/Pinnacle MK status.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Don't get me wrong, I love Tyrant and all having gotten the opportunity to sit and talk metagame with him the couple times I visited Socal, but what you listed just indicates to me he has issues with the Fox matchup despite having large amounts of experience.

What about Yui? What about TKD's wins against Havok's MK and his win against Atomsk? What about Zeaton's win against Ally? Also, Why can't the same be said about ADHD against top level MKs?

 

[Thino]

I lost to a Lucario once as MK. Lucario-MK must be even gaiz

Comparing yourself to top level players?

I was on Brinstar and everything.

Junebug beat M2K. It's obv in lucario's favor.

SO guys.

Does this means that stats don't determine matchups or that theres a certain amount of Fox vs MK (from top players only) that has to be played before it is decided that a matchup is even or not.

please someone explain me that in details.

 

[Chuee]

Yui being undefeated (or nearly undefeated) in the MU
TKD taking multiple sets off of Tyrant and taking a set off of Atomsk

1. As far as I know Yui's lost 1 set in the MU, against Rain, who he's beaten multiple times.
2. Unless TKD played Atomsk recently, that wast TKD's Marth/MK vs Atomsk's ICs.

 

[DeLux]

When did Yui face off against M2k?

I thought Atomsk was considered elite because he dominated with a billion characters and was a dominant player, and not necessarily a dominant MK.

How many times have Havok and TKD played each other as they are from the same region? People are bound to take sets off each other. Based on competitive mechanics of advancement, people tend to play closer to 50/50 the more they play each other on individual levels as they learn to abuse each other's habits.

ADHD beating top level MKs is probably a better argument imo, but that's Diddy, not fox. Except he also thinks it's a bad matchup

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The things people don't realize when discussing Meta Knight's match-ups:

1. Results aren't everything. MK clearly beats Fox in theory and to deny that would be stupid. If you went through all of MK's options and all of Fox's counters to those options and vice versa while weighing in risk/reward, MK would come out on top.

2. 9 times out of 10 the non-MK player has more experience in the match-up than the MK player. In examples were both players are good friends or whatever and play each other heaps, the game becomes more player vs. player than player vs. character (unless it is a hard counter MU). This is apparent with match-ups like TKD vs. Tyrant.

EDIT: Ninja'd slightly by Lux.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. As far as I know Yui's lost 1 set in the MU, against Rain, who he's beaten multiple times.
2. Unless TKD played Atomsk recently, that wast TKD's Marth/MK vs Atomsk's ICs.

So I wasn't wrong about the first one and that also proves Rain knows the MU and I think remember that set now. That might have been ICs vs MK/Marth

@Delux, I was talking about how ADHD usually only loses to top level MKs.

@Grimtuesday, theory doesn't really matter if it can't be done in reality.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But it can be done in reality, so it does matter.

The point I am trying to make is that even if Mango can beat a ****load of good players with his Mario, Mario is still a fundamentally "meh" character. We know enough about the game's mechanics to say this with near-certainty.

 

[Ghostbone]

The point I am trying to make is that even if Mango can beat a ****load of good players with his Mario, Mario is still a fundamentally "meh" character. We know enough about the game's mechanics to say this with near-certainty.

You still have to be careful about preconceptions and confirmation bias.

Otherwise we get stuck with notions of "Character X is amazing" and "Character Y is terrible" when tournament results indicate the opposite.

Spoiler

Yes Character X is Marth

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But it can be done in reality, so it does matter.

The point I am trying to make is that even if Mango can beat a ****load of good players with his Mario, Mario is still a fundamentally "meh" character. We know enough about the game's mechanics to say this with near-certainty.

But the players that beat top level MKs aren't that much better than them. They still lose to other top non MK players

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But they are, most likely, better at the specific match-up.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But they are, most likely, better at the specific match-up.

Just because a player gets to play a match up more does not necessarily mean they are better at the MU

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not necessarily, no.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Not necessarily, no.

So then how are they better at that specific match up?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't say they were, I said they most likely were.

Then you repeated what I said by saying "not necessarily".

You see, this is why people hate arguing with you. You don't even respond to the things people are actually saying, you try and put words into our mouths that you can counter, instead of dealing with the points presented.

 

[da K.I.D.]

playstyle counters.

A metaknight that plays a very slow methodical tilt and grab style, even if he doesnt have experience against the character is going to do better against pikachu than a player thats flashy and aggressive with nado and aerials, even if he has tons of pika experience.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

playstyle counters.

A metaknight that plays a very slow methodical tilt and grab style, even if he doesnt have experience against the character is going to do better against pikachu than a player thats flashy and aggressive with nado and aerials, even if he has tons of pika experience.

But that has more to do with the player than it does with the character

@Grim, we can't really know who is better at the match up so that's a bad argument

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, it does... So?

Spoiler

You're doing it again

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yes, it does... So?

Spoiler

You're doing it again

Doing what? Playstyle has to do with the player more than the character