Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Jimmyfosho]

The mu is in mks favor-pulls in a video of a Mk beating fox-

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The mu is in mks favor-pulls in a video of a Mk beating fox-

I've pulled out several videos of Fox beating MK though

 

[DMG]

silly idiots, fox counters mk

laser laser CAN'T APPROACH

 

[Steam]

Taking out the LGL would centralize the game around ledge play.

yeah with MK and a handful of other characters, but is there anything objectively wrong with that?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

yeah with MK and a handful of other characters, but is there anything objectively wrong with that?

Over centralization is one of the reasons why certain things are banned or in this case, limited

 

[DMG]

*LGL of 35*

*Someone gets timed out with less*

*Unrest until LGL is lowered to 5*

 

[SaveMeJebus]

*LGL of 35*

*Someone gets timed out with less*

*Unrest until LGL is lowered to 5*

We do play one stupid game don't we?

 

[DMG]

Yeah

we really do

 

[SaveMeJebus]

10 ledge grabs a stock makes sense

 

[Steam]

Over centralization is one of the reasons why certain things are banned or in this case, limited

but it isn't overcentralizing, a few characters can be safe there and it's a character strength. making a LGL is like making a projectile limit because they're overcentralizing.

 

[John12346]

Edit: whoops, topic changed already

 

[SaveMeJebus]

but it isn't overcentralizing, a few characters can be safe there and it's a character strength. making a LGL is like making a projectile limit because they're overcentralizing.

But is is the safest place in the game when choosing whether to jump back on stage or to stay on the ledge. With no LGL, there is no reason to ever jump back on stage

 

[da K.I.D.]

Every character being able to run offstage and bair stage stage spike you seems like plenty of reason to get off the ledge.

And to add insult to injury, the only character you can feasibly avoid someone going offstage to gimp them in that situation and realistically gimp them back at the same time...

Oh look, Metaknight.

I mean, you can easily steal the ledge from game and watch and marth. and its not hard to hit pit and rob off the ledge. Pikachu, you can do either with good reflexes. MK is the only character that really makes the ledge as safe as it is.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Ledge grab limits suck so much. Every tether regrab TL does is counted at the end and I almost lost a match (and the set) if it went to time out. Lucky for me, the snake died with 30 seconds left lol. But I had 60 edge grabs >.> and my goal wasnt even to plank. Its just that TL is so bad in the ledge that he NEEDS to regrab and stay there for a while and find a way to get back onstage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Every character being able to run offstage and bair stage stage spike you seems like plenty of reason to get off the ledge.

And to add insult to injury, the only character you can feasibly avoid someone going offstage to gimp them in that situation and realistically gimp them back at the same time...

Oh look, Metaknight.

I mean, you can easily steal the ledge from game and watch and marth. and its not hard to hit pit and rob off the ledge. Pikachu, you can do either with good reflexes. MK is the only character that really makes the ledge as safe as it is.

How? You risk taking a jump F-air or a U-air to the face.

 

[Orion*]

LGL is pretty much a completely scrubby rule put in place specifically to nerf MK (because his planking so good it's mostly unbeatable... meaning MK in a fair ruleset is mostly unbeatable).

This is bull****

Idc about your MK ban opinion. But there are soooo many things wrong with this.

If you have no problem with the game being "overcentralized" and not making objective rules as far as a LGL goes, then at least be consistent in your decision regarding MK.

If you're going to support a decision that hasn't been completely thought out or analyzed, with the only 100% fool proof reasoning behind it is that it would be better for the community (because that is the general consensus), then realize that with no LGL, you ruin whatever small chance this game has to be competitive.

There are plenty of games with dominant characters that are very popular and can get sponsored. But are there any of them where a majority of the match is spent with a low chance of interaction and a main strategy of the game devolves into timing out? It's not even worth it. You talk about it being subjective, but in this case you're completely letting your bias be uncompetitive for the community.

**** the metaknight debate.
Keep an LGL.

yeah with MK and a handful of other characters, but is there anything objectively wrong with that?

yes

but it isn't overcentralizing, a few characters can be safe there and it's a character strength. making a LGL is like making a projectile limit because they're overcentralizing.

The fact that even a few characters can be safe is enough of a problem.
Making a LGL is NOT like making a projectile limit. Projectiles force interaction with your opponent, while the point of ledge camping is to deviate from interaction.

Every character being able to run offstage and bair stage stage spike you seems like plenty of reason to get off the ledge.

And to add insult to injury, the only character you can feasibly avoid someone going offstage to gimp them in that situation and realistically gimp them back at the same time...

Oh look, Metaknight.

I mean, you can easily steal the ledge from game and watch and marth. and its not hard to hit pit and rob off the ledge. Pikachu, you can do either with good reflexes. MK is the only character that really makes the ledge as safe as it is.

It honestly is a very MU specific topic at that point, so saying something generally isn't doing much.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

well,

wrecked

 

[Cassio]

Trashing on lgls while supporting MK's ban can be a defining example of hypocritical reasoning. Theres literally no logical way to say both no matter what you assume, there will always be invalid logic that makes it hypocritical. (not trying to be mean here, its just true).

 

[John12346]

Well, not necessarily, Cassio.

The idea is that, however hard it might be, all non-MK planking is beatable, and hence, a LGL on anyone aside from MK is an unnecessary rule. Since MK was the only unbeatable offense of the theory, he was, as such, bannable(or at least, it was one of the reasons behind the pro-ban ideology).

TBH I would think that supporting both an LGL and a MK ban would be more hypocritical than supporting one and denying the other...

 

[Cassio]

Its more complex then that, and part of it assumes that those who support MKs ban while hating on lgls also support most of the ruleset, which I should have stated but isnt unreasonable to assume.

Problem is we dont wait for things to be broken for us to do something about them. If your criteria is to only alter things that are broken, then you should have an issue with the timer, item removal, a huge number of stage removals, etc. etc. If you dont then the logic does not follow.

 

[Life]

@Cassio

Um, no? One of the reasons to get rid of MK (for some of us) is that it may make an LGL unnecessary. With MK gone, pro-LGL is seriously overestimating the tactic for non-MK characters.

Once Apex is over, we should remove the LGL for a while and see how the metagame develops. If planking is still a problem, we reinstate the limit, no harm is done.

Let me draw a comparison here:
1. Planking breaks certain matchups. I'm assuming this for the sake of the argument--due to the LGL, planking hasn't really developed, so counterplanking tactics haven't really developed either.
2. Infinites break certain matchups. D3 vs. DK, Marth versus kids, etc.
3. Planking is not particularly entertaining to watch. There's a reason that part of the RB/Will match got made into a .gif (does anyone have that BTW? I kinda want a copy).
4. Infinites are not particularly entertaining to watch. dthrow dthrow dthrow dthrow dthrow dthrow dthrow dthrow dthrow dthrow...

Therefore, if you support a ledge-grab limit, you should support a grab/throw limit, or some similar infinite limit (I'm not sure if any non-throw infinites exist on stages without walls).

Am I wrong?

Double ninja'd answering new post in a sec

Okay, first:
1. The timer is necessary to force approaches. Without the timer, camping in general is obviously overpowering. I personally like games with multiple win conditions, too, but maybe that's only me. Whatever number you put on the timer is semi-arbitrary, but it's better than not having one.

2. Stage removals: Let's see... Japes, Norfair, PTAD, LM, YI:M, Distant Planet, and a few others I'm forgetting were not tested by many regions despite not having obviously-broken features (arguably the walkoff on YI:M and DP are broken, but walkoffs with slopes aren't nearly as bad as flat walkoffs, especially with DP which provides multiple anti-camping tools). We've been over this many times.

3. Items: You realize I'm the OSF guy, right? (Technically BPC came up with it, to be fair, but he never really pushed it.) Many items are clearly problematic (activate-on-hit items, lightning, timer, fan, pokeball, AT, just to name a few) but one could argue that items in general cause too much randomness to be worth their possible advantages (advantages such as having glide-tossing in matchups with characters that don't already generate items, potentially having new answers to planking, Ganondorf arguably becoming a viable character). I think that with explosive capsules now having their own switch in Brawl, some items could be re-tested, but it's hard enough getting people to consider Japes, let alone stuff like that, so I just don't worry about it. There is an items-on ruleset floating around somewhere, if you're curious, and it looks fairly reasonable, but it's still kind of moot.

 

[John12346]

Well, I'm kinda busy atm Cassio, so I'll let Inferiority take over, but I think, that, at your point, the criteria for what constitutes an "ideal ruleset" for everyone on the pro-ban(perhaps anti-ban too?) side begins to vary. For example, I am all for no LGL, a 9 minute time limit, the return of Norfair, Japes, and Distant Planet ONLY, as well as two stage bans, and I feel that the ruleset is generally opened up to quite a few more liberal changes due to a lack of the MK factor, but others may see it differently, simply because what constitutes "broken" varies hugely from person to person.

It's all subjective, I guess.

 

[Orion*]

Well, not necessarily, Cassio.

The idea is that, however hard it might be, all non-MK planking is beatable, and hence, a LGL on anyone aside from MK is an unnecessary rule. Since MK was the only unbeatable offense of the theory, he was, as such, bannable(or at least, it was one of the reasons behind the pro-ban ideology).

TBH I would think that supporting both an LGL and a MK ban would be more hypocritical than supporting one and denying the other...

To be honest as far as theory craft goes, MK's planking is "unreasonable" to beat in a realistic sense due to the risk reward, and disadvantaged position you will be put in. Even then, the tactic still requires MK to be a lead, and said tactic was banned without it really even proving past theory craft to be broken in tournament settings (I.E. nationals)

Considering the fact that the tactic was so garbage in the first place we banned it, and there really isn't that much tournament data on it. However I clearly remember chibos tournaments that had MK legal and no LGL having no odd placings, or people beating people they normally would not have.

Supporting the MK ban despite the lack of full analysis on the situation, is very similar to supporting an LGL in the sense that if you are for it, you are believing it is for the better of the community. Past that, the best you can argue is subjective.

also,

wtf at "pro ban ideology"
did john#s start a religion???
LMAO

Once Apex is over, we should remove the LGL for a while and see how the metagame develops. If planking is still a problem, we reinstate the limit, no harm is done.

This was never the case when MK was even legal. Although it's not the worst Idea, I'm always pro testing. I honestly think that people won't be willing to fully abuse it until it's really for everything, and if something that gay happens at a national it would be pretty sad.

 

[Tommy_G]

I can't wait until the Official Diddy Kong ban thread comes up.

Then Ice Climbers.

Then D3.

Then Snake.

 

[Life]

Let's ban slippery slopes

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOL97EZ7pc

To all you who doubt this is an even MU

Ouch. Dude, I hate to break it to you, but this is neither a good example, nor is it a good line of logic. "Vid X, therefore fox goes even with MK" doesn't work. That's one set. One set that may or may not be at the highest metagame level. Never mind that we know that there are better MKs, and that there are probably better foxes (TKD). So this post is just really bad.

sure, while MK is forced onto his worst stages and he's not allowed to use the strongest aspect of his game (ledge game)

Orion summed this up very nicely, but hey, here's a lovely little challenge for you: get back to me on the LGL issue when Unity no longer has one for MK-banned events.

On a side note:

Let's ban slippery slopes

THIS. It's good to see that my perception of Tommy_G has not changed with my perception of the ban debate. ^_^

 

[DMG]

Tommy G is either a very good troll, or has some of the worst opinions/posts I have ever seen.

Let's make a statement about people complaining about other characters, give it no background or introduction, and watch the sun set as the world is a dumber place than before I opened my mouth.

Diddy broken. Snake broken. IC's broken. Wario Falco Marth broken. Need nerf nao.

I am now a god listen to what I just said it MUST be right because I expected, no explanation needed. Hue

I'm borderline close to asking a mod to censor all of his dumb posts. Like wow.

 

[Steam]

This is bull****

Idc about your MK ban opinion. But there are soooo many things wrong with this.

If you have no problem with the game being "overcentralized" and not making objective rules as far as a LGL goes, then at least be consistent in your decision regarding MK.

If you're going to support a decision that hasn't been completely thought out or analyzed, with the only 100% fool proof reasoning behind it is that it would be better for the community (because that is the general consensus), then realize that with no LGL, you ruin whatever small chance this game has to be competitive.

There are plenty of games with dominant characters that are very popular and can get sponsored. But are there any of them where a majority of the match is spent with a low chance of interaction and a main strategy of the game devolves into timing out? It's not even worth it. You talk about it being subjective, but in this case you're completely letting your bias be uncompetitive for the community.

**** the metaknight debate.
Keep an LGL.

the difference is that non-MK planking is almost always extremely beatable. so it's not even overcentralizing in the first place outside of one character. It's MK that breaks ledge games, not ledge games that break the game... just like it's MK that breaks stages... and it's not the stages themselves that are broken.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the difference is that non-MK planking is almost always extremely beatable. so it's not even overcentralizing in the first place outside of one character. It's MK that breaks ledge games, not ledge games that break the game... just like it's MK that breaks stages... and it's not the stages themselves that are broken.

For some reason, the URC disagrees. And you know what? I'm gonna have to ask you to get back to me on this when they change their rules.

 

[Judo777]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOL97EZ7pc

To all you who doubt this is an even MU

Haha you know what else is an even MU? Sheik vs MK (pulls up a vid of me 3 stocking an MK). Right?

Btw that's a pretty awful example considering the fox 2 stocked the MK in 2 of the games (btw the MK won game 2 because MK gets THAT much stronger on CPs). Apparently not only is the MU even but its heavily in foxes favor according to that video. It has nothing to do with the fact that 1 player might just be better than the other one.

Also my favorite part of the video was the FIRST thing that happened in the video. MK tornados and realizes it gonna get shielded and stops the tornado right in front of the fox. Then what does the fox do? What every character has to do to punish MK. He doesn't actually punish him for it cause he can't. He instead tricks the MK into thinking he can punish it then punishes his panic (lol at SHAD into MK for a fake punish). AKA how everyone has to punish most of MK's crap.

Like that's the characteristic of a bad MU. When you can't actually punish something, you have to pretend you can and wait for your opponent to make a mistake then punish the second mistake. Luigi has to do this crap all the time. He powershields something, but CAN'T punish it if its like a sword character. So what does he do? He walks froward acting like he can punish it then punishes their panic spotdodge.

Like watch any low tier character play and you'll be amazed at how much they have to do this all the time. This is actually sheik's saving grace as a mid tier is she actually CAN punish everything.

 

[Kuro~]

o.0 fox can punish nado's ridiculously well...lol

But i get your point.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yui is considered to be one of the best if not the best Fox in the MK match up (he might even be better than TKD) and the MKs he plays against are much better at the MU than most top American MKs

 

[Tommy_G]

Tommy G is either a very good troll, or has some of the worst opinions/posts I have ever seen.

Let's make a statement about people complaining about other characters, give it no background or introduction, and watch the sun set as the world is a dumber place than before I opened my mouth.

Diddy broken. Snake broken. IC's broken. Wario Falco Marth broken. Need nerf nao.

I am now a god listen to what I just said it MUST be right because I expected, no explanation needed. Hue

I'm borderline close to asking a mod to censor all of his dumb posts. Like wow.

You put down my lack of evidence or factual basis to a point while stating my visions of the community, yet you do nothing but put me down for it without saying anything actually meaningful yourself. Is this the kind of community worth playing for?

 

[C.J.]

Yui is considered to be one of the best if not the best Fox in the MK match up (he might even be better than TKD) and the MKs he plays against are much better at the MU than most top American MKs

Akira, El, Kakera? Sure. Rain? Hell no. Rain's MK is bad (his Falco is amazing though). All you did was show a video with an amazing fox who is amazing at the MK mu wreck a high level MK (top level Falco) who is bad at the MU. And yet, the MK still managed to take a game. That set makes me think the MU is in MK's favor more than the opposite actually >_>

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Akira, El, Kakera? Sure. Rain? Hell no. Rain's MK is bad (his Falco is amazing though). All you did was show a video with an amazing fox who is amazing at the MK mu wreck a high level MK (top level Falco) who is bad at the MU. And yet, the MK still managed to take a game. That set makes me think the MU is in MK's favor more than the opposite actually >_>

Are you kidding me? How many American MKs do you see N-airing Fox's U-tilt? He may not be the best MK, but he does seem to know this MU. Lets also not forget that Rain did something Anti has failed to do (beat MikeHaze with MK)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yui is considered to be one of the best if not the best Fox in the MK match up (he might even be better than TKD) and the MKs he plays against are much better at the MU than most top American MKs

whoa, whoa whoa. hold on there buddy.

nahhhhh.
i think youre getting a little ahead of yourself there brah.

Are you kidding me? How many American MKs do you see N-airing Fox's U-tilt? He may not be the best MK, but he does seem to know this MU. Lets also not forget that Rain did something Anti has failed to do (beat MikeHaze with MK)

ok, mk ***** marth and any random smart player using mk has a solid chance to beat anybody regardless of exactly how much or little they know about the matchup.

whats your point.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

whoa, whoa whoa. hold on there buddy.

nahhhhh.
i think youre getting a little ahead of yourself there brah.

ok, mk ***** marth and any random smart player using mk has a solid chance to beat anybody regardless of exactly how much or little they know about the matchup.

whats your point.

1.Nahhhhh. I think I'm not. Go ask anyone in the Fox boards.

2. Then how come Anti couldn't beat Mike with MK the two times he played him? He's not even a random smart player

 

[Orion*]

the difference is that non-MK planking is almost always extremely beatable. so it's not even overcentralizing in the first place outside of one character. It's MK that breaks ledge games, not ledge games that break the game... just like it's MK that breaks stages... and it's not the stages themselves that are broken.

What is almost always? Does that mean most of the time, or some of the time? That doesn't sound like "extreme" to me because I can think of plenty of mu's where characters riskreward ratio for combating planking is really screwed. There's more options than vs MK yes, but that doesn't make it anything solid.

The reason many players outside of smash look down on this game is because they feel it's inconsistent, there's enough problems in the engine already without even mentioning tripping. Then you actually expect people to watch the game and be interested // hold together a solid community in general when it's possible to ledge camp? Even if it happens "sometimes" or for "some matchups" or whatever, it shouldn't be happening AT ALL.

MK is also not the only reason that rc/brins need to banned. But hey, it's not like other stages weren't banned for other characters or anything... oh wait

any random smart player using mk has a solid chance to beat anybody regardless of exactly how much or little they know about the matchup.

whats your point.

This is beyond false

edit: @ Steam

Another problem with your double standards btw. Since pretty much everything needs to be proven by results for you, I want you to show me a regional, or national sized tournament where MK dominated and the predominant strategy was planking. Clearly if the strategy was so good, and easy to use MK would have dominated with it before it was banned am I correct? If not then why are you assuming it's broken? If you say theory craft, and that's part of your main argument for MK being banned then you have also contradicted yourself.

 

[da K.I.D.]

2. Then how come Anti couldn't beat Mike with MK the two times he played him? He's not even a random smart player

this is like saying that the lucario falco or lucario mk matchups are close to even just because lee martin beat rain.

 

[Orion*]

this is like saying that the lucario falco or lucario mk matchups are close to even just because lee martin beat rain.

that wasn't his point in that post for once XD