Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Grim Tuesday]

If you're going to support a decision that hasn't been completely thought out or analyzed, with the only 100% fool proof reasoning behind it is that it would be better for the community (because that is the general consensus), then realize that with no LGL, you ruin whatever small chance this game has to be competitive.

There are plenty of games with dominant characters that are very popular and can get sponsored. But are there any of them where a majority of the match is spent with a low chance of interaction and a main strategy of the game devolves into timing out? It's not even worth it. You talk about it being subjective, but in this case you're completely letting your bias be uncompetitive for the community.

**** the metaknight debate.
Keep an LGL.

I think that we should ban Warlock Punch because with it legal, the entire game just becomes based around Warlock Punch.

Hold on... It doesn't. Why? Warlock Punch is counterable. The funny similarity between Warlock Punch and Planking is that they are both counterable, so suggestion either one will become a dominant strategy is kind-of ridiculous.

Making a LGL is NOT like making a projectile limit. Projectiles force interaction with your opponent, while the point of ledge camping is to deviate from interaction.

Projectiles force interaction with your opponent, planking with the lead forces interaction with your opponent.

When I plank with Jigglypuff, I don't try and go for the time out because I have done it so often that the people I play against know that I will eventually get repetitive or **** up and they can leap on the opportunity and hit me. I plank to try and coax the opponent into putting themselves in a position worse than their current one. This is no different to projectile camping.

Meta Knight is the only character who can mix-up his planking enough to actually use it as a long-term safe camping option.

Even if it happens "sometimes" or for "some matchups" or whatever, it shouldn't be happening AT ALL.

Why not?

MK is also not the only reason that rc/brins need to banned. But hey, it's not like other stages weren't banned for other characters or anything... oh wait

I'm all ears.

Another problem with your double standards btw. Since pretty much everything needs to be proven by results for you, I want you to show me a regional, or national sized tournament where MK dominated and the predominant strategy was planking. Clearly if the strategy was so good, and easy to use MK would have dominated with it before it was banned am I correct? If not then why are you assuming it's broken? If you say theory craft, and that's part of your main argument for MK being banned then you have also contradicted yourself.

Can't we unban planking and find out? You are stating yourself that we put in a limit despite no evidence that it was necessary.

 

[DMG]

BPC we've been over that. They have a cast wide LGL on, not because it's inherently broken for the entire cast, but because it makes the game immensely more enjoyable and "nobody" wants another Will vs Rich Brown. They have the rule to please people, not to fix a strategy so broken that the game is instantly unplayable. I'm fine with using the LGL to make things funner, cause the game's not that fun watching MK/someone else plank the whole time. But let's not kid ourselves and say the cast wide LGL is because the Ledge breaks the game or because you CAN'T play the game without a LGL (MK out of the picture of course).


LGL for better game. Strong tactic that people strongly hate, not unbelievably broken tactic. Don't say planking IS unbelievably broken because "Well it has a LGL, so it must be" because we can regulate the game how we want.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC we've been over that. They have a cast wide LGL on, not because it's inherently broken for the entire cast, but because it makes the game immensely more enjoyable and "nobody" wants another Will vs Rich Brown. They have the rule to please people, not to fix a strategy so broken that the game is instantly unplayable. I'm fine with using the LGL to make things funner, cause the game's not that fun watching MK/someone else plank the whole time. But let's not kid ourselves and say the cast wide LGL is because the Ledge breaks the game or because you CAN'T play the game without a LGL (MK out of the picture of course).

I never said this. Because...

LGL for better game. Strong tactic that people strongly hate, not unbelievably broken tactic. Don't say planking IS unbelievably broken because "Well it has a LGL, so it must be" because we can regulate the game how we want.

THIS HAS BEEN MY ARGUMENT THE WHOLE TIME. Not "Planking is unbeatable" but rather "planking is both extremely dull to watch and provides an extremely low-risk, high-reward situation". I'm saying that the game is subjectively better with LGLs for all but an extreme (and laughable) minority, mostly my friends here from the stage rage crew

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So LGLs are ok because people enjoy the game more with an LGL, but an MK ban is bad because...?

I mean, I can find a few Pit or ROB players to come here and tell you how much they wish there was no LGL, and I can find a few sad MK mains.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

And let's add one more person to the list of people who fail to understand the difference between "will almost immediately kill attendance if abused" and "may cause a few whiners to quit"

 

[Orion*]

So LGLs are ok because people enjoy the game more with an LGL, but an MK ban is bad because...?

I mean, I can find a few Pit or ROB players to come here and tell you how much they wish there was no LGL, and I can find a few sad MK mains.

If people admit they are banning MK just because they are tired of seeing him, then I personally have ZERO problem with it, and actually if it is getting more tournament attendance/enjoyment/views/sponsors then I support their decision 100%.

However I do have a problem when people like John#s have some "ideology" like it's a **** religion and then state their facts as truths, or when people like steam tend to double standard themselves into an assbackwards hole. If you don't like MK and you think the game is better without him, then go for it. But don't debate it like the ban decision was thought out well past that.

 

[DMG]

Putting a LGL on the entire cast because it's subjectively better has no bearing on MK. If a LGL was put on because other characters were just as broken on the edge as MK, then yes you could use that as an argument against MK being banned because "well we gotta use the rule anyways to keep the game playable". But what it looks like is more of "This rule keeps the ball rolling", not "Without this rule there is no ball TO roll".


A MK free environment that uses a LGL is using one to make the game more enjoyable. A MK legal environment has more of an actual need for a LGL or some kind of limit on MK's edge game for the game to not just be enjoyable but frankly be playable lest the game devolve into overcentralization concerning MK and the edge. There's a difference between the two that gets muddled over or blurred intentionally a lot.


Oh yeah Tommy let me give you a proper response to that:

1. I don't even really NEED a long drawn out essay of points and statements that show why I'm right and you're wrong, because it's SO PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that after MK is gone, there will NOT be a universal hatred of another "top" character anywhere near the level as MK. If "that many" people are dissatisfied or disturbed at the MERE thought of MK being banned, what in the hell makes you think those people would topple over once someone yells from the mountain top "BAN SNAKE"? You really think the boards are gonna be flooded with slippery slope garbage? Do you REALLY think that's gonna happen?

2. Here's why you're wrong: there is no forseeable evidence that another character will or is even possible of taking the same spot as MK in the metagame. If there is no real HARD evidence that Diddy or Marth will win all teh moneyz and have no CP stages or MU's to deal with, what would lead you to assume that people would complain about a problem that doesn't exist?



Say you are of the opinion that the MK ban is a complete waste of time because it's obvious that he's not broken to you. Even under this capacity, MK is a much stronger and much more dominant character than the ones you listed as "suspects" after MK is gone. Do you think people would complain as much, or as vocally, over Snake winning the next MK banned national? That people will be FED UP with darn Falco winning stuff?



The only reasonable assumptions you could make, are that it's more likely for people to complain about MK than other characters, and that if complaining DID take place for other characters it would not occur on such a prevalent and deep level. The only other possible way you could achieve a similar level of dissatisfaction with another character is, frankly if logic and reason go out the window and people complain for the very sake of complaining. I don't think that's the case, maybe you do for whatever reason, and that would explain your pessimism towards all of this.



Orion: Agreed on most of it. The problem with the debate, time and time again this has been brought up but it's incredibly true, is that there was no "pre agreement" on where to draw the line in the sand on a character. Because of that, no one really came up with an idea of what was "too good" until something questionable snuck its way in. Once that happens, your view of what's broken or not becomes increasingly harder to remain "neutral", even reaching the point where once numbers are published and stats gathered it's close to impossible to not be biased one way or the other because now you KNOW where the character stands.

The MK ban debate, for either side, was lose lose because both sides were two different lines in the sand drawn AFTER the character broke through and was successful.

 

[Ghostbone]

And let's add one more person to the list of people who fail to understand the difference between "will almost immediately kill attendance if abused" and "may cause a few whiners to quit"

Yea! People should have to put up with MK, but not with planking!
-_-

I really don't think planking is more hated than MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I really don't think planking is more hated than MK.

No ****; it's never happened on a wide scale. I mean, just to compare, we have, like, 2 famous instances of planking total. Compared with a metagame that has had a lot of MK from the start. But compare the impact of just M2K vs. Coney and Will vs. RichBrown to the impact of 3 years of scrubs johning about MK...

 

[DMG]

*Doesn't want people to know about the old Dallas friendlies*

*Team friendlies were quad MK planking legal*

The nightmares.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If people admit they are banning MK just because they are tired of seeing him, then I personally have ZERO problem with it, and actually if it is getting more tournament attendance/enjoyment/views/sponsors then I support their decision 100%.

However I do have a problem when people like John#s have some "ideology" like it's a **** religion and then state their facts as truths, or when people like steam tend to double standard themselves into an assbackwards hole. If you don't like MK and you think the game is better without him, then go for it. But don't debate it like the ban decision was thought out well past that.

What if you believe that Meta Knight's planking is broken?

And let's add one more person to the list of people who fail to understand the difference between "will almost immediately kill attendance if abused" and "may cause a few whiners to quit"

...No one will quit en masse without a lgl...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

state their facts as truth.

wat

jkjkjk

Orion, dre. made the point a while back and I've said it a few times before too: MK is strong enough that his strength+community morale is enough. I don't really care to argue whether or not he's "broken" since it means different things to different people (I mean to me shuttle loop is pretty ****ing disgusting) but I DO think that he's strong enough, inarguably, that when coupled with how the community feels about him in general, a ban leaves us better then we started.

 

[Orion*]

Orion: Agreed on most of it. The problem with the debate, time and time again this has been brought up but it's incredibly true, is that there was no "pre agreement" on where to draw the line in the sand on a character. Because of that, no one really came up with an idea of what was "too good" until something questionable snuck its way in. Once that happens, your view of what's broken or not becomes increasingly harder to remain "neutral", even reaching the point where once numbers are published and stats gathered it's close to impossible to not be biased one way or the other because now you KNOW where the character stands.

The MK ban debate, for either side, was lose lose because both sides were two different lines in the sand drawn AFTER the character broke through and was successful.

True.

My only problem with the data is really the fact that the way it's presented really acts like it "shows something" on john#s charts, and people seem to take that data for more face value than what it actually is... just data. The data has never been analyzed, and there was never proper testing on a large scale with a stagelist that seems to work everywhere else in the world.

I don't think banning RC/Brins at this point would make a HUGE difference or something, it's not worth people that already main MK to switch characters or something, but it would remove a lot of the bull**** that I tend to see even in high level matches.

edit: Also somehow the only data that was actually analyzed seems to be ignored by most of the community.

 

[DMG]

Yeah. Although last I heard Tuen was going over it again/going over something else because he came across something statistically incredible and wanted to be absolutely sure. I don't remember the exact details, but something about a P value of exactly 0.

 

[Orion*]

wat

jkjkjk

Orion, dre. made the point a while back and I've said it a few times before too: MK is strong enough that his strength+community morale is enough. I don't really care to argue whether or not he's "broken" since it means different things to different people (I mean to me shuttle loop is pretty ****ing disgusting) but I DO think that he's strong enough, inarguably, that when coupled with how the community feels about him in general, a ban leaves us better then we started.

ROFL @ community morale.
I understand what you're saying, but calling it morale is a bad way to describe it. Moreso like, community *****ing. Most of this community would rather complain about something rather than improve.

off tangent// very similar to how people tend to act in life I might add... but just an observation (although it's not my place to judge anyone on that sort of level, I'm getting my own life together).

 

[Conviction]

ROFL @ community morale.
I understand what you're saying, but calling it morale is a bad way to describe it. Moreso like, community *****ing. Most of this community would rather complain about something rather than improve.
.

Which is why this thread still exists/is active.

 

[Orion*]

Which is why this thread still exists/is active.

I was expecting a troll post... and then I smiled

 

[Conviction]

I was expecting a troll post... and then I smiled

I was being serious. Lol

 

[Orion*]

I was being serious. Lol

I know.. that's why i smiled LOL

 

[Conviction]

I know.. that's why i smiled LOL

Call me a derp, but I can't tell if I should take it as a compliment or not.

 

[Dre89]

The 'get better' card seems like it could be used no matter how broken a character is.

Mk was by far the most studied MU for 3 years and yet he still dominated. If that doesn't show that 'getting better' won't work, and that's he's just too good, then what will?

 

[John12346]

John#s have some "ideology" like it's a **** religion and then state their facts as truths

I know it was said already, but I'm completely aware that it's not possible to take all of the data, information, tournament matches, planking, etc. that has occurred over 3 years and make a direct case that MK was broken or even bannable.

The best we could do was show how MK passed the line that pro-ban members set, and attempt to show how he passed the much more lenient line that anti-ban members set, and even then, it still wouldn't really show anything, because all of these lines we've been drawing are completely arbitrary and there was no real precedent for what was considered broken beforehand.

TBH the best move to take would be to make an INFORMED poll(unlike the URC poll, where it was just the poll w/o information to read), where both sides dump in as much information as humanly possible about the MK debate, and see how many people believe that, given all of the information laid out on the table, if MK has crossed their own pre-determined lines about what they believe is broken.

My only problem with the data is really the fact that the way it's presented really acts like it "shows something" on john#s charts, and people seem to take that data for more face value than what it actually is... just data.

Y'know, if you have an idea of how to correctly "interpret" this data, you're free to tell me. What concerns do you have with my data? Because... it's more than likely that one of the multiple analyses of this data that I've taken in the past will ease your concerns. And if not, I'd definitely like to compile my data in a different way; I'm all ears.

I'm not doing this to be competitive or anything, I seriously want to work out any kinks in my data, and if you have a qualm about it, I'd like to attempt to resolve it.

 

[Strong Badam]

The 'get better' card seems like it could be used no matter how broken a character is.

Mk was by far the most studied MU for 3 years and yet he still dominated. If that doesn't show that 'getting better' won't work, and that's he's just too good, then what will?

A character dominating just proves that he's the best character (which we've known since 2008). Drawing the line of what's "too good" and what isn't is hard, so people try to use statistics to "prove" that he's overcentralizing or whatever even though it's still an arbitrary and subjective call to make.

 

[Dre89]

But saying people should just get better seems pretty unreasonable given how much effort people have actually put into dealing with him yet he still dominates.

 

[Flayl]

A character dominating just proves that he's the best character (which we've known since 2008). Drawing the line of what's "too good" and what isn't is hard, so people try to use statistics to "prove" that he's overcentralizing or whatever even though it's still an arbitrary and subjective call to make.

It wasn't too hard for you, I've seen you regularly trash the Brawl community for it. I'm sure you have good reasoning and evidence for it though.

 

[resTy]

Mew2King is a God for single-handedly banning this character.

 

[Steam]

What is almost always? Does that mean most of the time, or some of the time? That doesn't sound like "extreme" to me because I can think of plenty of mu's where characters riskreward ratio for combating planking is really screwed. There's more options than vs MK yes, but that doesn't make it anything solid.

The reason many players outside of smash look down on this game is because they feel it's inconsistent, there's enough problems in the engine already without even mentioning tripping. Then you actually expect people to watch the game and be interested // hold together a solid community in general when it's possible to ledge camp? Even if it happens "sometimes" or for "some matchups" or whatever, it shouldn't be happening AT ALL.

MK is also not the only reason that rc/brins need to banned. But hey, it's not like other stages weren't banned for other characters or anything... oh wait



This is beyond false

edit: @ Steam

Another problem with your double standards btw. Since pretty much everything needs to be proven by results for you, I want you to show me a regional, or national sized tournament where MK dominated and the predominant strategy was planking. Clearly if the strategy was so good, and easy to use MK would have dominated with it before it was banned am I correct? If not then why are you assuming it's broken? If you say theory craft, and that's part of your main argument for MK being banned then you have also contradicted yourself.

I said most of the time because I'm sure there's one matchup out there that the opponent can do nothing in. of course it's never been tried in every single matchup. IMO half because of the LGL being in place for awhile, and half because outside of MK and a handful of others it's not that useful.

thinking MK should be banned and no LGL is okay doesn't mean I have double standards. It means I think MK is the only reason a LGL would be needed.

there hasn't really been any tourney where a ton of MKs won by just planking, most people don't have the patience for that. M2K vs. coney is a perfect example off the top of my head. and I don't know of many more because I don't watch brawl vids often. But I'd really like to see a video of someone not named MK actually beating MK's planking.

though personally I'd actually prefer MK banned and a LGL anyways on the grounds that I believe it would in my opinion prevent any potential damage the "health" of the metagame, and preventing the game from potentially being incredibly boring to watch or play IMO. I just know that a LGL is a scrubby rule. but hey, they added a shot clock in the NBA to counter stalling so IDK why we can't

 

[Strong Badam]

It wasn't too hard for you, I've seen you regularly trash the Brawl community for it. I'm sure you have good reasoning and evidence for it though.

It's much easier to justify default than it is to justify change. Burden of proof etc.

 

[Tommy_G]

Oh yeah Tommy let me give you a proper response to that:

1. I don't even really NEED a long drawn out essay of points and statements that show why I'm right and you're wrong, because it's SO PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that after MK is gone, there will NOT be a universal hatred of another "top" character anywhere near the level as MK. If "that many" people are dissatisfied or disturbed at the MERE thought of MK being banned, what in the hell makes you think those people would topple over once someone yells from the mountain top "BAN SNAKE"? You really think the boards are gonna be flooded with slippery slope garbage? Do you REALLY think that's gonna happen?
It is not painfully obvious after MK is gone that there will not be a universal hatred of another top character. Snake use to be above MK on the tier list long ago. There will be a small hatred for the next top character. People will fluctuate more towards playing that character. The character's popularity will irritate people. More and more people will increasingly complain about the character and it will be banned because of that and no real, valid, "ban-worthy" reason.

2. Here's why you're wrong: there is no forseeable evidence that another character will or is even possible of taking the same spot as MK in the metagame. If there is no real HARD evidence that Diddy or Marth will win all teh moneyz and have no CP stages or MU's to deal with, what would lead you to assume that people would complain about a problem that doesn't exist?
There was no foreseeable evidence that MK was going to be the best character initially, but as the metagame progressed, MK proved to be the best. MK has never been proven to be unbeatable beyond a margin of skill. He requires players to think to win just as much as any other character.

Green fonts. I also think Falco vs MK on Jungle Japes is in Falco's favor. We need to bring back JJ. It's stage mechanic helps other characters a lot more than it helps MK.

 

[John12346]

There was no foreseeable evidence that MK was going to be the best character initially, but as the metagame progressed, MK proved to be the best. MK has never been proven to be unbeatable beyond a margin of skill. He requires players to think to win just as much as any other character.

I don't know, with MK's combination of moves that work outside of the frame of human reaction, which are both capable of damage racking and killing(and mixing up very well, think: Ftilt delays, Dtilt shield pokes, super fast and long ranged dash grab, invincible UpB, Nado to destroy spacing, etc...), a ridiculous survival factor(momentum cancel + recovery), and the ability to camp out virtually any match to time via air camping, scrooging, using ledge grabs carefully, along with a bunch of other factors kinda....

Well... I'd say that most of the time, non-MK characters are going to have to work quite harder that MK's going to have to, in the end. Remember, it's MK who has a lack of negative matchups, we can easily infer that MK doesn't have to work as hard on any matchup in order to win.

Plus no other character has a ridiculous combination of amazing factors like MK does... trufax...

I also think Falco vs MK on Jungle Japes is in Falco's favor. We need to bring back JJ. It's stage mechanic helps other characters a lot more than it helps MK.

We shouldn't be legalizing stages on the basis that they'll nerf MK...

Granted, Japes is a fine competitive stage and it should be made legal on the fact that every aspect of it satisfies the criteria of a true CP stage, but that's the reason why we should legalize it, not that MK is made weaker on the stage...

 

[da K.I.D.]

Thats not true, ive tried it. its just as good for mk as it is for anybody.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Thats not true, ive tried it. its just as good for mk as it is for anybody.

He loses to Falco there and even if he does ban this stage against him, Falco will still be able to go to what ever his current best stage is

 

[M@v]

The only thing going for japes as a legal stage is that its main hazard can be predicted. Klap traps come at set times.

 

[da K.I.D.]

He loses to Falco there and even if he does ban this stage against him, Falco will still be able to go to what ever his current best stage is

No, he doesnt.

just because falco can double laser people from the main platform, and side b more doesnt automatically mean he beats anybody he wouldnt otherwise on that stage.

he actually gets boned by the stage as much as it buffs him. It takes FOREVER to kill people because his main kill move being a weak up smash means that when people play safe against him, he cant kill because the ceilling is rediculously big.

the sides are also really shallow, not shallow enough for bair to kill usually, but shallow enough for him to die to things that he would normally survive on a stage like BF.

it also hurts his gimping/spiking ability more than it helps it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No, he doesnt.

just because falco can double laser people from the main platform, and side b more doesnt automatically mean he beats anybody he wouldnt otherwise on that stage.

he actually gets boned by the stage as much as it buffs him. It takes FOREVER to kill people because his main kill move being a weak up smash means that when people play safe against him, he cant kill because the ceilling is rediculously big.

the sides are also really shallow, not shallow enough for bair to kill usually, but shallow enough for him to die to things that he would normally survive on a stage like BF.

it also hurts his gimping/spiking ability more than it helps it.

If he chain spikes MK in certain parts of the stage, MK will usually die. He can camp MK on this stage better than he can on almost any other stage and he has ways of getting around the stage with his side b. It is definitely a better stage for Falco than it is for MK in this MU

 

[Steam]

legalizing japes also screws over half the roster against MK. MK can kinda just time out half the roster for free on japes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the other half he can just shuttle loop off the sides at 40.

 

[Steam]

yeah I remember that time I took a MK to japes as lucario because it was luc's best stage...

I learned my lesson.

 

[Judo777]

Are you kidding me? How many American MKs do you see N-airing Fox's U-tilt? He may not be the best MK, but he does seem to know this MU. Lets also not forget that Rain did something Anti has failed to do (beat MikeHaze with MK)

The fact that this is even an argument is pathetic. "OMG those japanese MK players are nairing foxes utilt!? Those Japanese are truly wizards at the MU!" The fact that something that ******** isn't common place in America (which it might be) just demonstrates a horrible lack of MU knowledge here in the states.

"Dude what do you mean Japanese Marth's don't know the MU!? How many U.S. marth's honestly grab sheiks fair on shield???? They must be pro at the MU to do stuff like that since the U.S. Marths that are ALREADY experts at the MU don't......"

 

[Zankoku]

Is nairing Fox after getting hit by utilt supposed to be revolutionary or something? I mean, nair hits earlier than Meta Knight becomes invincible from air-dodging, so...