Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Spelt]

I wonder if your posts sound this ridiculous while you're typing them...

 

[Cassio]

Not to worry, I editted in a "for dummies" section as you replied because I knew you wouldnt get it.

 

[Spelt]

Ooooh snap.

Top notch wit right there.

 

[Judo777]

Zss airgame being better than MK's was me being generous away from MK. Regardless of whos is better they are both good. Marth's I said was better simply because in the MK, Marth MU MK does NOT want to be in the air (cause he gets outranged and outsped) however how they play out in the MU might not necessarily be whos is better.

Regardless MK is at LEAST top 3 airgame.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Basically the fact remains that having ZSS above you as MK is a far less advantageous position than the reverse is for her. ZSS's uair is just really, really stupid for MK to get through safely. This is coming from a guy who had like 5 tournament sets against the best ZSS in Europe–I know what I'm talking about. Hell, even Staco agrees that it's smarter to just DI towards the ledge if you get stuck in the Uair juggles, and he's the best MK in Germany by a wide margin. You can't get through. ZSS's uair is just that good. Ridiculously fast, great speed, and she's more mobile in the air unless you use tornado, which is incredibly unsafe at that height. This is why I say ZSS's air game beats out MK's, at least in that matchup. MK really, really doesn't wanna be above ZSS. His "airborne" position is pretty much off to the side and barely above her head, so that she can't uair you, but you can react to most of her options with tornado. Not, you know, what you'd imagine under "air game".

 

[Yikarur]

lol@Staco Example he's the one who gets constantly ***** by her.
You can always just glide to the ledge to avoid any juggling, who cares if he's disadv. above her.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

lol@Staco Example he's the one who gets constantly ***** by her.
You can always just glide to the ledge to avoid any juggling, who cares if he's disadv. above her.

'cept that her vertical range is amazing and her uair and upB both solidly beat glide attack. I'm also pretty sure that I got very similar advice from a different top MK... as in, the best MK in the world.

 

[Yikarur]

where to I talk about glide attack?

and every move in this game beats glide attack. (Except trancendent one's :D)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just sayin'; glide is not a very good option, because then he just uairs you again or gets upB->uair.

 

[Orion*]

meanie head.

i think youre a good player but you yourself know you aren't on his level. ***** has setups USA platers cant even think about applying :|

 

[Laem]

Lmao Cassio and Tokyo, wtf was that all about. get outta here XD
I would say MK can idd often from a great height glide away and then get onstage/to ledge horizontally, but vs zss specifically there's also that sideB with massive range and power to keep in mind. I'm starting to think moves like MK's uair and dtilt are both outclassed by ZSS' uair and dtilt because while their speeds and range are similar, zss' get a LOT more reward out of actually hitting.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You guys are confusing things here.

ZSS's uair is good because it's combined with all her other tools.

• Vertical acceleration
• Dsmash to punish landings
• UpB
• sideB (with her horizontal mobility
• Bair

To name a few.

MK with ZSS's uair wouldn't be as good. Airdodging past him doesnt get you as sick bair. Airdodging away doesn't get you a sideB. Airdodging to the ground doesn't get you dsmash dsmash relaunched. Jumping away isn't obsolete because MK vertical acceleration isn't as good.

MK's uair is good because it's combined with all his other tools.

• Multiple Jumps
• Tornado
• upB
• DownAir
• NeutralAir

Just to name a few.



You can't just say
CharacterAMoveX is better than CharacterBMoveX because the CHARACTERS are different.


@Laem, for example, MK profits more from his dTilt than he would from ZSS's dtilt, imo. If he wanted to launch, he could use his broken fTilt. His dTilt lends him some great shield pressure. On the other hand, ZSS would do jack**** with a dtilt like MK's, she prefers her own.

Stupid debate.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

BPC actually isnt too far off. If not for the safety MKs moveset allows him hed definitely be feeling a lot of hurt. Against the rest of the cast though its less clear, in some cases its safe to say a uair like ZSS or marth is more threatening than MKs.

So... MK's uair is better because his air game is better?

Thats what we were trying to say... Lol...

Basically the fact remains that having ZSS above you as MK is a far less advantageous position than the reverse is for her.

One of ZSS' main weakness is her difficulty touching the ground, MK has no such weakness.

ZSS's uair is just really, really stupid for MK to get through safely. This is coming from a guy who had like 5 tournament sets against the best ZSS in Europe–I know what I'm talking about. Hell, even Staco agrees that it's smarter to just DI towards the ledge if you get stuck in the Uair juggles, and he's the best MK in Germany by a wide margin. You can't get through. ZSS's uair is just that good. Ridiculously fast, great speed, and she's more mobile in the air unless you use tornado, which is incredibly unsafe at that height. This is why I say ZSS's air game beats out MK's, at least in that matchup. MK really, really doesn't wanna be above ZSS. His "airborne" position is pretty much off to the side and barely above her head, so that she can't uair you, but you can react to most of her options with tornado. Not, you know, what you'd imagine under "air game".

If she commits to something, you just hover around above her till she falls back down. If she doesn't commit you drift towards the ledge until you are out of her juggling zone.

Get better at this match-up.

 

[Orion*]

Marth's I said was better simply because in the MK, Marth MU MK does NOT want to be in the air (cause he gets outranged and outsped) however how they play out in the MU might not necessarily be whos is better.

Regardless MK is at LEAST top 3 airgame.

I can agree with this

This is coming from a guy who had like 5 tournament sets against the best ZSS in Europe–I know what I'm talking about.

I love how you try and post credentials now ROFL

Hell, even Staco agrees that it's smarter to just DI towards the ledge if you get stuck in the Uair juggles, and he's the best MK in Germany by a wide margin.

That's what you should be doing uunless you have a read vs any character anyway

You can always just glide to the ledge to avoid any juggling, who cares if he's disadv. above her.

That **** doesnt work unless you are EXTREMELY high up. Otherwise the risk reward is ****ing garbage. It's like she can just throw **** out and you are stuck with one option. If you really understood how the game worked, you would want to keep as many options as you can at all times, further decreasing your likeness of getting read.

Regardless I still think it's a ****ty position to be. But MK does have options, it's just hard

 

[Blacknight99923]

marth doesn't want to be in the air vs metaknight though either if metaknight is below him.

Talking about airgames is a really iffy catagory because what are we discussing? are we talking about jumping in a neutral situation? In that case the only character I can think of that really gains a positional advantage because of that is wario. Viable characters tend to have intrinsic advantages when other characters jump and they themselves are on the ground.

Are we talking about recovery and gimping? Then thats obviously metaknight

Are we discussing juggleing? In that case i'd probably still have to say metaknight, but there characters who could give him a run for his money.

Are we discussing landing? In which case that probably goes to wario.

you say marth beats mk in the air in that match up...which is true provided marth is already in a position where metaknights options are limited to jumping and airdodging, it doesn't really stand true for obvious reasons if marth is getting tornado'd, uair'd SL'd or gimped.

in what context are we discussing air game?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I love how you try and post credentials now ROFL

Hey come on, when I'm talking to people who probably have never played the matchup on either end, having a fairly decent number of sets against one of the best ZSSes out there, period, has got to count for something.

 

[Steam]

not talking about ZSS at this point, but as a Lucario/Snake user, I'd much rather be above ZSS than MK because I don't have to worry about a shuttle loop I can't react to with monstrous range... that puts me offstage... where I die. plus against ZSS I can stall by DJing or dairing with lucario if she jumps at me because she doesn't have tons of jumps. only thing I have on MK is air speed but he has a quick fast fall and a fast dash so if I am able to drift away MK is usually able to just Fast fall to the ground and make it to me fast enough to punish my landing or force me onto the ledge... which is ****ty.

 

[jbw]

wow thats crazy

 

[Cassio]

So... MK's uair is better because his air game is better?

Thats what we were trying to say... Lol...

yeah this is I can agree with. Although only in the MK vs ZSS specific MU, i think its too hard to say who's move is better overall because it really depends on the MU (since most characters dont have several jumps + tornado), but thats true for most moves of similar quality.

I think its just silly when people will say "zomg MK has the best 'x' move" without considering how well his moves flow together with the rest of his characteristics. Maybe thats not what you were trying to say but some people definitely were.

 

[ElDominio]

wow thats crazy

Account was made in Jul 2010
and that is your first post 0_0

I think its just silly when people will say "zomg MK has the best 'x' move" without considering how well his moves flow together with the rest of his characteristics. Maybe thats not what you were trying to say but some people definitely were.

The rest of his characteristics... like being broken?

 

[Thino]

I don't understand what you guys are arguing about.

Does the fact that some characters have moves/options that are better than MK change the fact that he's top tier?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

To be fair, this thread has gone off on a pretty wild tangent...

 

[Eddie G]

Bringing other characters up will do that sort of thing.

 

[DMG]

Bringing up MK counters tends to do that.

I'm on a witch hunt for Bowser and Yoshi still. Those mains lied to me. CG to death they said...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Platforms dun exist

 

[DMG]

Thino I know you got some May Hentai on your comp somewhere. Baby gurl huyya mouf....


In related news, MK sword no longer transcendent. Scientists speculate this to be the work of the devil.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'll give you mobility and range (for marth) but the others aren't true at all.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
ZSS' air everything (with regards to movement) is better than/equal to Marth's except for falling speeds (and she still beats MK in falling speeds). So if you're going to 'give' mobility to Marth, you should be doing so for ZSS as well.

ZSS' aerials also have better range than MK's, except for her dair. And their fairs are probably about equal in range.

How does that give her a better airgame... She has one great aerial and another above average aerial and that apparently beats MK's everything?

She has 3 great aerials (uair, fair, bair) and one decent aerial (nair).

 

[Flayl]

Bringing up MK counters tends to do that.

I'm on a witch hunt for Bowser and Yoshi still. Those mains lied to me. CG to death they said...

Yo, Spadefox was the only one who said Bowser countered MK...

edit: Also Bowser can CG to death, guaranteed. Aerial release to klaw, it's really hard though.

 

[Ghostbone]

She has 3 great aerials (uair, fair, bair) and one decent aerial (nair).

Nair isn't decent....it's terrible, like, extremely terrible.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No Nair is actually really good.

It's just hard to use. Nair is way better than fair though. DAir is also good.

It's just that ZSS is actually hard to use, I guess a Peach main wouldn't understand.

 

[Ghostbone]

No Nair is actually really good.

It's just hard to use. Nair is way better than fair though. DAir is also good.

It's just that ZSS is actually hard to use, I guess a Peach main wouldn't understand.

lololol
The move that never hits because it's always clanked with, and the move that has a **** tonne of lag are good?

Nair's like useless, dair can be used on occasion I guess.

 

[da K.I.D.]

zss nair has lag? cant she combo it into her like 20 frame down smash?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You're dumb, Ghostbone.

Do your research before making statements.

 

[Orion*]

I'm talking to people who probably have never played the matchup on either end

Now you should understand how 90% of smashboards felt when they tried to respond to almost the entirety of your posting career here.

I don't have to worry about a shuttle loop I can't react to with monstrous range...

That shouldnt be happening very often, unless you are getting read pretty solidly or putting yourself into ****ty positions. Just learn the moves range, and life becomes a lot easier

Nair isn't decent....it's terrible, like, extremely terrible.

You clearly don't understand what you're talking about at this point so I'm to just let you be

zss nair has lag? cant she combo it into her like 20 frame down smash?

yes :|

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOL97EZ7pc

To all you who doubt this is an even MU

 

[Steam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOL97EZ7pc

To all you who doubt this is an even MU

sure, while MK is forced onto his worst stages and he's not allowed to use the strongest aspect of his game (ledge game)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

sure, while MK is forced onto his worst stages and he's not allowed to use the strongest aspect of his game (ledge game)

There should be a LGL for every character in the game and Rain won on his CP so the stage list really would not have mattered

 

[M@v]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOL97EZ7pc

To all you who doubt this is an even MU

Oh look, all neutral stages. Now lets see a match vs a top mk. Yeah I said that. Rain is not an elite mk player. Good? For sure. But his Falco is beast mode though.

 

[Steam]

There should be a LGL for every character in the game and Rain won on his CP so the stage list really would not have mattered

LGL is pretty much a completely scrubby rule put in place specifically to nerf MK (because his planking so good it's mostly unbeatable... meaning MK in a fair ruleset is mostly unbeatable).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

LGL is pretty much a completely scrubby rule put in place specifically to nerf MK (because his planking so good it's mostly unbeatable... meaning MK in a fair ruleset is mostly unbeatable).

Taking out the LGL would centralize the game around ledge play.