Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Except for the fact that everyone hates falco dittos. If nairo played falco then anti would probably play diddy or something against him and and if anti played falco, ally might go wario or ics against him. Which in turn might cause nairo to bust out his dk. The three of them combined play like 10 characters altogether so the idea that all 3 of them would resort to falco only is kind of rediculous


Edit.
Ive said it before and ill say it again. Ike and tink are definitely the characters with the most to gain from mk getting banned

My point went straight over your head, so lemme explain it clearly: if 3 or 4 of the very best players in the country all started to main the same high tier character and exclusively the same character, you're going to see a ****load of dittos in finals. What a surprise, this is what happened with MK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Curious that the top 3-4 best players in the largest Smash country in the world all use the same character.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Curious that the top 3-4 best players in the largest Smash country in the world all use the same character.

Not really. The USA has an excessive play-to-win attitude, plus we really can't ignore the Mew2King factor here.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Actually, the exorbitant amount of dittos didnt start because everyone was maining metaknight. They started because everyone was trying to counterpick each other. I dont know about Nairo but Anti and especially Ally didnt start off as straight MK mains. In the situation of mine that you quoted, the progression was that Anti would really want to beat ally, so he would Cp him with MK, and in responce, ally started playing MK because it was the only really counterpick there is to MK.

But without metaknight, no group of top players is all going to play the same character, because then they're all going to get steamrolled by the one lesser player that happens to be really good with against that character with a character that counters them. Everyone playing falco in the later tournament rounds is the day Cheese wins a tournament. Beauty of a counterpick system.

 

[Ghostbone]

Not really. The USA has an excessive play-to-win attitude, plus we really can't ignore the Mew2King factor here.

Yea we can.

It's silly to go "MK is only too good if everyone uses him"
No, everyone uses him because he's too good.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

BPC: Why did the "M2K" factor never happen with Marth after Ken in Melee?

 

[Dre89]

BPC the problem with your reasoning is that you think for a character to be broken they must be abusable or broken at lower levels of play.

That's why you demand MK dominance in weaker regions to for justification of the ban, because you think for MK to be broken he has to be abusable by weaker regions.

Competitive brokenness is only concerned with being broken at the top level exclusively, it doesn't matter how abusable something is at lower levels.

And I'm confused by your statement that the top players in the world happen to play MK. Didn't people like Ally start out with other characters, then switch to MK specifically because of how much he dominated, and to counter opponents?

 

[John12346]

Might as well put out there, while you're all at it, that MK's winnings(Average category) jump from 45.30% of the money to a meaty 58.10% when you narrow the tournament selection down from "All Tournaments" to "Tournaments with 45 entrants or more," which includes all of the regionals, nationals, and REALLY big locals(at most, 5) that have occurred this year.

Kind of a significant jump, imho...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC the problem with your reasoning is that you think for a character to be broken they must be abusable or broken at lower levels of play.

That's why you demand MK dominance in weaker regions to for justification of the ban, because you think for MK to be broken he has to be abusable by weaker regions.

Competitive brokenness is only concerned with being broken at the top level exclusively, it doesn't matter how abusable something is at lower levels.

And I'm confused by your statement that the top players in the world happen to play MK. Didn't people like Ally start out with other characters, then switch to MK specifically because of how much he dominated, and to counter opponents?

Okay, you got me. Obviously, Europe is a weaker region. Now explain Japan. You know, like when one of their PR'd players came to us (not even top 3, from what I hear), he **** on our best MK despite the unusual stagelist and placed second at one of the largest tournaments in smash history.

BPC: Why did the "M2K" factor never happen with Marth after Ken in Melee?

Legitimate question. Different attitudes in the community? Ken not moving all over the country and teaching everybody the character? I'm not sure.

Yea we can.

It's silly to go "MK is only too good if everyone uses him"
No, everyone uses him because he's too good.

...Neither of these statements is logically solid. But here's the thing–is it fair to say that on the east coast (let's be fair–the attitudes here are mostly ripped straight from EC), the best 4 players are Ally, Anti, Nairo, and Mew2King? If so, then there really shouldn't be a problem–we have the 4 best players winning a lot, and they all use the same character, who happens to be the best in the game. This could happen in any game–hell, look at SF3S: you wanna tell me that Jwong, Nuki, Amir, and Tokido are not top players because they all used chun (they're top 4 at Evo 2008, btw)? Or that "everyone uses Chun because she's too good, therefore she should be banned"?

 

[Eddie G]

I wouldn't say Brood "**** on" M2K lol...he beat him last hit, last stock, last game. You're still correct, but let's not exaggerate here.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I wouldn't say Brood "**** on" M2K lol...he beat him last hit, last stock, last game. You're still correct, but let's not exaggerate here.

Compare game 1 to game 2.
Now remember that game 3 was essentially a "freebie" for M2K, matchup-wise.
Now remember that last game was on his second-best available counterpick.
Now look at the game on Brood's counterpicks.

 

[Conviction]

Let's not forget that Brood didn't so well at a lower caliber tourney that same week here in the states.

Damn it, someone tell me the name of the tourney because I always wanted to know who he lost to besides ADHD.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

And of course, let's not forget–Brood isn't even the best Olimar in Japan. Nietono outplaces him regularly, IIRC.

 

[Conviction]

Okay then, (I mean I find it weird that I'm on this side of the argument because I'm more a pro-Japan person) let's just have Nietono come over to the states and see how does on multiple occasions.

Without a doubt Brood is an amazing player but for all we know APEX could have been a breakout moment for him and....actually I hate trying to guess the intent. So I'm just going to say it could have been an outlier moment.

I just wish we could support a group of Japanese players to stay here in the states for a longer period of time so they could attend more than 1 to 2 tournies and we could get a better grasp of them.

 

[Laem]

Let's not forget that Brood didn't so well at a lower caliber tourney that same week here in the states.

Damn it, someone tell me the name of the tourney because I always wanted to know who he lost to besides ADHD.

I think it's fair to say that even if brood had gotten 25th at that other tourney (he got 2nd place right?), bpc's point still stands since he got mother****ing 2nd at mother****ing APEX, beating Ally & M2K, the top 2 in the USA. In the tourney that mattered, in case you didn't realize.
Besides, did you even notice how he manhandled Ally? xD

After APEX, any rational mind would put some serious doubt in the hastefully assumed selfperceived superiority of the USA (which was never really acknowledged by a lot of Europeans/English speaking communities anyway, since there hadn't been a real international tourney to determine this with any kind of certainty, which by the way still hasn't really happened to this day), rendering any arguments who still hold tightly to that notion invalid.

For the record: Japan > USA > EU kkthxbb

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

General preface: IMO.

Tbh I think it is fair to say that Europe is worse than the USA, with the possible exception of Glutonny and Mr R. being on the level of American top players. Beyond those two we're not quite up to snuff; a crew battle between USA and EU would go well for the first couple of games and then we'd get down to Anti or Nairo or ADHD vs. Orion or Leon or something, and we'd end up in some real trouble. But Japan? **** no. Those guys are amazing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Japan is in a similar boat to Europe, they have high level players but not as many as America.

 

[Judo777]

I think it's fair to say that even if brood had gotten 25th at that other tourney (he got 2nd place right?), bpc's point still stands since he got mother****ing 2nd at mother****ing APEX, beating Ally & M2K, the top 2 in the USA. In the tourney that mattered, in case you didn't realize.
Besides, did you even notice how he manhandled Ally? xD

After APEX, any rational mind would put some serious doubt in the hastefully assumed selfperceived superiority of the USA (which was never really acknowledged by a lot of Europeans/English speaking communities anyway, since there hadn't been a real international tourney to determine this with any kind of certainty, which by the way still hasn't really happened to this day), rendering any arguments who still hold tightly to that notion invalid.

For the record: Japan > USA > EU kkthxbb

But....... we DID man handle their best player at the same tournament......... and I think people overhype Brood a TON. Brood is amazing don't get me wrong. But M2K played that MU like a complete scrub (tornado spam and spamming SL for gimp attempts) at Apex.

And yes Ally DID lose to Brood. But I mean Olimar is certainly one of Snakes only disadvantaged MU's and probably his worst honestly (maybe besides Marth). SO yes players like Ally can lose when they played against by bad MU's.

 

[C.J.]

Japan is in a similar boat to Europe, they have high level players but not as many as America.

I disagree completely. I see more top level players in Japan than in America. However, I believe that within the top level player America has, we have a couple that are higher than the level of Japan's top players; and within that God Tier player list, I think that America MIGHT have a player or two over Japan. After you get into top level play, and not God tier level play, I think Japan outnumbers America in sheer number of players within that tier.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Name every top player you can think of in Japan.

 

[Laem]

But....... we DID man handle their best player at the same tournament......... and I think people overhype Brood a TON. Brood is amazing don't get me wrong. But M2K played that MU like a complete scrub (tornado spam and spamming SL for gimp attempts) at Apex.

And yes Ally DID lose to Brood. But I mean Olimar is certainly one of Snakes only disadvantaged MU's and probably his worst honestly (maybe besides Marth). SO yes players like Ally can lose when they played against by bad MU's.

You're talking about rain? that aint nietono / 9B. Pretty sure rain hasn't been the best in japan for a long time, definitely longer ago than apex '10 if ever.
And as for going into the matches specifically: rather you don't . It'll mostly if not only be johns that could be used the other way around had brood lost, therefore pretty much nullifying the argument. The fact of the matter is: m2k and ally were (prolly still are) the top 2 at the time.
And then going into the very match up itself: that's way too subjective. Shu ***** brood back in japan not too long after apex; now i wouldn't say Shu > Ally but I would say the MU is better understood there.

 

[da K.I.D.]

...Neither of these statements is logically solid. But here's the thing–is it fair to say that on the east coast (let's be fair–the attitudes here are mostly ripped straight from EC), the best 4 players are Ally, Anti, Nairo, and Mew2King? If so, then there really shouldn't be a problem–we have the 4 best players winning a lot, and they all use the same character, who happens to be the best in the game. This could happen in any game–hell, look at SF3S: you wanna tell me that Jwong, Nuki, Amir, and Tokido are not top players because they all used chun (they're top 4 at Evo 2008, btw)? Or that "everyone uses Chun because she's too good, therefore she should be banned"?

I just want to point out that Dabunz and PGN are currently ranked higher than M2k and nair and I believe Atomsk is ranked higher than Nairo as well.

Let's not forget that Brood didn't so well at a lower caliber tourney that same week here in the states.

Damn it, someone tell me the name of the tourney because I always wanted to know who he lost to besides ADHD.

I believe he lost to Dabuz at that tourney.

I disagree completely. I see more top level players in Japan than in America. However, I believe that within the top level player America has, we have a couple that are higher than the level of Japan's top players; and within that God Tier player list, I think that America MIGHT have a player or two over Japan. After you get into top level play, and not God tier level play, I think Japan outnumbers America in sheer number of players within that tier.

nahhhhh son.

I can probably name 2 top american players for every top Japanese player you can think of.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I just want to point out that Dabunz and PGN are currently ranked higher than M2k and nair and I believe Atomsk is ranked higher than Nairo as well.

Ranked higher on what? Just answer the question–is it fair to assume that, with MK legal, those four are the four best players on EC, or at least all top 8?

I can probably name 2 top american players for every top Japanese player you can think of.

Of the same level or higher?

Nietono
Brood
Masashi
9B
Orochi
Kakera

...Actually, hell, just name me two American players who are likely to be as good as 9B. I might be able to name one.

 

[Orion*]

I just want to point out that Dabunz and PGN are currently ranked higher than M2k and nair and I believe Atomsk is ranked higher than Nairo as well.

for a season...
they still arent placing at internationals like they are.

Although i think atomsk/dabuz/nairo are on the same level of play and vinnie is just a little better. and then m2k is better than that.

mind you im just talking about level of play, not who beats who. dabuz has been beating vinnie a lot recently.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ranked higher on what? Just answer the question–is it fair to assume that, with MK legal, those four are the four best players on EC, or at least all top 8?



Of the same level or higher?

Nietono
Brood
Masashi
9B
Orochi
Kakera

...Actually, hell, just name me two American players who are likely to be as good as 9B. I might be able to name one.

The Current New Jersey PR

----------

Dabuz
Rich Brown

MikeHaze
DEHF

Tyrant
Atomsk

Vinnie
Adhd

Gnes
Razer

Esam
Seibrik

As skilled as 9B or could beat him in a match?
If were talking about straight skills, does 9b still play ICs? If so I would say smoom is just as consistent with his grabs even if he doesnt place as high. and if were talking about people that could beat him. I think a lot of american low tier players could beat his ICs. Delta/Polt, San/Ryo, maybe even Kain just to name a few.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Internet theory-crafting at it's best: comparing regions that almost never play in hypothetical match ups that will likely never happen, and even if they did happen, will not be of enough sample size to really determine anything (but regardless of this big statements will surely be made on the results! Probably even by me, but I digress).

Seriously, videos are practically meaningless in comparing skill levels with people who have never played each other.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it is fairly easy to tell what players are on the same echelon of skill, aside from trying to figure out who would beat who.

 

[DMG]

There are certain things you can tell though. Japan is much more technical that the average US player, and even top US players overall pale in comparison to how technical they have gotten. With that said, I think US players are more creative and more willing to try something offbeat/normally not a strong or expected option to get the advantage.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

So just wondering, how long is this thread going to stay here? Because I'm pretty sure complaints and arguements have been repeating themselves

 

[WindMajor]

It doesn't really matter what the arguments are like, as long as they are on topic and tame.

When things turn off topic and/or constant trolling/flaming is involved, we'll consider locking it for some time, but the thing that we (or at least I have) have been trying to do since Day 1 is to not close it, since this topic has been shunned from SWF for way too long.

 

[Juushichi]

I wanna see Pink Fresh, Mekos or FAE against Kakera or 9b, tbqh.

What I'm saying is that they could probably lose to Lucas. I think some characters that they normally dont play or worry about could get them. I would also put money on Nick Riddle vs the pair I mentioned too.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes, let's ban him about a year or more before the next Smash game comes out.

 

[Kuro~]

^^^^^^^^^^^try 3-5 years.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

 

[No_Skillz]

My point exactly. Mark my words. Diddy or Falco will be next. Especially since players now know it's a reality that they can get characters banned.

mark my words. diddy and falco have flaws unlike metaknight. for example they lack the AMAZING recovery mk had, there are also plenty of counterpicks for falco like lylat or frigate, whereas the best counter pick for metaknight as ANY character was final destination at which their character still had a disadvantage, maybe one day u and the rest of the antiban braindead *******es will understand theres a difference between being the best character in the game and being broken

 

[ElDominio]

mark my words. diddy and falco have flaws unlike metaknight. for example they lack the AMAZING recovery mk had, there are also plenty of counterpicks for falco like lylat or frigate, whereas the best counter pick for metaknight as ANY character was final destination at which their character still had a disadvantage, maybe one day u and the rest of the antiban braindead *******es will understand theres a difference between being the best character in the game and being broken

And that was his second post 0_0

But I agree. The only character that made you go "omG seriously" was MK.
There is literally no other character with unexplainable stuff like Shuttle Loop.

 

[sanchaz]

is their a kaptain in you, is their, answer me that mate knights

 

[Judo777]

You're talking about rain? that aint nietono / 9B. Pretty sure rain hasn't been the best in japan for a long time, definitely longer ago than apex '10 if ever.
And as for going into the matches specifically: rather you don't . It'll mostly if not only be johns that could be used the other way around had brood lost, therefore pretty much nullifying the argument. The fact of the matter is: m2k and ally were (prolly still are) the top 2 at the time.
And then going into the very match up itself: that's way too subjective. Shu ***** brood back in japan not too long after apex; now i wouldn't say Shu > Ally but I would say the MU is better understood there.

I'll tell you this, right after Apex everyone was saying "oh dude Brood beat M2K AND HES NOT EVEN JAPANS BEST PLAYER." Then shortly after I heard from several people say that at the time Rain was considered the best in Japan. This was further the information I recieved when on the stream after Rain lost he apparently walked up to Brood and said "You're the best in Japan now." or something along those lines.

I believe I heard it from Spelt (maybe it was spelt) and I think Kel told me it also. Regardless Rain was considered the best or AT LEAST top 3 (in Japan) at that tournament and more so considered a better player than Brood. So my point still stands.

 

[phi1ny3]

I wanna see Pink Fresh, Mekos or FAE against Kakera or 9b, tbqh.

What I'm saying is that they could probably lose to Lucas. I think some characters that they normally dont play or worry about could get them. I would also put money on Nick Riddle vs the pair I mentioned too.

My Money's on Trela/Junebug (v. MK) hehe, RAIN lost to not even the best lucario at the time, so I wanna see what happens when a precise and adapting playstyle meets hard read and Comeback/Combo King goodness, it's gonna be awezum imo.

TBH while they do have some decent ZSS exp., they probably haven't played one of Nick Riddle's Caliber. I'd like to see them v. ESAM too

 

[Conviction]

I'm getting confused. I'm more of a pro-japan person but I feel like I'm arguing the other side.