Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Orion*]

smoom

you compared smoom to 9b.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

mark my words. diddy and falco have flaws unlike metaknight. for example they lack the AMAZING recovery mk had, there are also plenty of counterpicks for falco like lylat or frigate, whereas the best counter pick for metaknight as ANY character was final destination at which their character still had a disadvantage, maybe one day u and the rest of the antiban braindead *******es will understand theres a difference between being the best character in the game and being broken

...MK has flaws, MK may in fact have even or bad matchups, etc.

 

[Judo777]

...MK has flaws, MK may in fact have even or bad matchups, etc.

except he doesn't.

 

[DMG]

MK has no bad MU lol you're deluded if you think that. Make whatever argument for evens, but straight up losing he does not have. There's literally only 1 character possible of getting to that point and it's IC's. No other character has a reasonable claim for beating MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Japan has been making a pretty good case for Olimar. ICs is a candidate, to be sure, especially given a smart ruleset (like, say, APEX ruleset, or German Standard Ruleset, which is APEX + PS2). Then there are the ones who may very well be even... Furthermore, the 5th-lightest character in the game, one who also has a fairly ****ty air movement and no projectiles... has no weaknesses. Look, I get that those are minute weaknesses. MK has nothing crippling or particularly problematic, but hey, welcome to just about every top tier ever. -.-

 

[DMG]

And how is he supposed to have a bad MU with those weaknesses being so minute? Even the way you phrase it casts doubt on the idea that he has a bad MU. Even is one thing, but he has no soft counter and probably no 55:45 against him.

 

[Meru.]

Japan has been making a pretty good case for Olimar. ICs is a candidate, to be sure, especially given a smart ruleset (like, say, APEX ruleset, or German Standard Ruleset, which is APEX + PS2). Then there are the ones who may very well be even... Furthermore, the 5th-lightest character in the game, one who also has a fairly ****ty air movement and no projectiles... has no weaknesses.

Who cares about him being 5th lightest if his momentum cancel is one of the best in the game and allows him to live much longer than his weight shows?

Having no projectiles is not a weakness :l.

That leaves ****ty air movement, but he can compensate for that with his ground speed and amazing aerials ("TRYING TO HIT ME IN THE AIR HUUUH?!").

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Who cares about him being 5th lightest if his momentum cancel is one of the best in the game and allows him to live much longer than his weight shows?

Maybe dying to Snake's utilt a good 20% earlier than most of the cast counts as a weakness?

Look, I get it, MK IS THE BEST IN THE GAME. THIS IS NOT NEWS. But being dishonest about how good he is doesn't help anyone.

 

[Spelt]

Clicked on this thread so I can laugh at whatever BPC said.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Also, am I the only one who realizes that a character with no inherent flaws can still have a bad matchup if, say, he is simply outclassed by a different character in enough categories? And don't give me some "MK isn't outclassed either" bull****; if you want to tell me MK's kill power is better than Snake or Olimar's, or that MK's ground game isn't outclassed by characters like Diddy and ICs, you're nuts. Like, even if MK has no weaknesses, a character who outclasses him enough in kill power, defense, camping, or any number of other categories could beat him despite having a clear weakness or two. This isn't rocket science. It's not guaranteed, but it's definitely possible for a character with no weaknesses to lose the matchup to a character with weaknesses.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also, am I the only one who realizes that a character with no inherent flaws can still have a bad matchup if, say, he is simply outclassed by a different character in enough categories? And don't give me some "MK isn't outclassed either" bull****; if you want to tell me MK's kill power is worse than Snake or Olimar's, or that MK's ground game isn't outclassed by characters like Diddy and ICs, you're nuts. Like, even if MK has no weaknesses, a character who outclasses him enough in kill power, defense, camping, or any number of other categories could beat him despite having a clear weakness or two. This isn't rocket science. It's not guaranteed, but it's definitely possible for a character with no weaknesses to lose the matchup to a character with weaknesses.

MK's kill power is worse than Snake's
/I know what you meant, but there's still a case to be made that MK can compensate easily with massive juggling and edge-guarding games to rack up damage quickly, as well as d-smash, f-smash and nair being very reliable at what they do.
Plus his up-b can kill at like 50 depending on the circumstances lol.

His ground game is pretty dam good, could out-class Diddy's. (I'm assuming that short hops, tornado, low aerials, etc. are part of one's ground game, since they're used for pressuring on the ground...)
I mean, he has tilts with massive range, massively sliding dash grab, nair/up-b OoS, d-smash, great f-roll, decent spot-dodge, tornado, fair..... and against Diddy he has his amazing glide toss to use with bananas.

And sure if a character has such massive strengths that they could overcome MK's massive strengths and few (mild) weaknesses, he'd lose the match-up.
It's just no such character exists..... (maybe Olimar with only purples? lol)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

stuff

Working mostly on a hypothetical level here, just to make a point.

And sure if a character has such massive strengths that they could overcome MK's massive strengths and few (mild) weaknesses, he'd lose the match-up.
It's just no such character exists..... (maybe Olimar with only purples? lol)

This is the point of contention. I simply disagree.

 

[Orion*]

...MK has flaws, MK may in fact have even or bad matchups, etc.

Bad ?
Naaaa
I could see some even ones. Maybe even like 45/55 in far future sense but like MKs character build is extremely solid.

d-smash, f-smash and nair being very reliable at what they do.

These all take reads, or your opponent making a bad decision bar combos/setups into nair so they aren't like super reliable.

Plus his up-b can kill at like 50 depending on the circumstances lol.

Unless you're snake already at the blast zone, or on brinstar which should be banned you're DI is garbage.

His ground game is pretty dam good, could out-class Diddy's. (I'm assuming that short hops, tornado, low aerials, etc. are part of one's ground game, since they're used for pressuring on the ground...)

Diddys risk reward, walls, and gay *** air command grab that can be canceled into a disjointed sex kick that combos makes me not think this is true atm. Maybe in specific matchups (like peach where diddy has to play pretty differently) but overall naaa

 

[DMG]

No character has proven themselves to be a counter or good MU vs MK (good meaning 55:45 other character favor or better vs MK). It's possible that IC's or Olimar have a good MU against him. AS OF YET, that is not proven or widely accepted. Even is debatable, but going positive vs him is not the case and I honestly welcome any character to have a positive MU on MK because that would help the metagame for the best character to have a valid counter.


It's possible sure. It's also possible that MK's traits are overall "better" than everyone else's traits by a margin sufficient enough that no character can muster to simply go even. Olimar has a better ground game sure. Other characters score "higher" in specific sub categories for tools and abilities. But it's also possible that only having the edge in 1 "area" like ground game, grab game, etc isn't enough to sway the MU in your favor if you lose on other areas.


MK might have a bad MU, and he also might beat everyone in the cast without going even. If we're considering what's "possible", sure your suggestion is completely fine. But that possibility is not likely, expected, or proven to be true. By a similar or greater margin, it's entirely possible for MK to 6:4 those 2 characters.

Possible, not probable. You can say it's possible for him to have a counter. Not probable.

 

[Judo777]

How do you outclass a character in enough categories to beat them when MK is literally the best at almost everything in the game.

Speed of attack? #1
Range of attacks in general? #2 (losing only to Ike lol)
Damage output #3 (probably only behind maybe Snake and Olimar, maybe Diddy)
Kill power? as far as easiness of landing #5 ish (prob behind Snake, Olimar, Wario, Fox maybe, DK)
Recovery distance? #1
Safety of recovery? #1
Overall airgame? like at WORST #3 (behind Marth and Zss)
Overall ground game? like at WORST #4 (behind Olimar, Snake, and Diddy)
Overall offstage game? #1
Total Survivability? Probably #6 (because this is encompassed in DI + getting back to the stage safely without getting *****, like Bowser) behind Snake, DK, Wario, Yoshi, and GW.
Safety of Maneuvers? #1 lol
Keep away game? well ruleset depending he actually goes from having around like top 7 to top 1 keep away games.
Stage viability #1, #0 ruleset depending lol

Best case for outclassing MK in those categories is Snake and maybe Olimar.
The only places they beat him are Snake (wins damage output, kill power, survivability, ground game) but gets ***** in the safety of recovery, airgame, safety of maneuvers sections. Snake also loses in stage viability(rulset dependent) Olimar wins in damage output, ground game, kill power, and keep away (only with a LGL), but gets ***** in airgame, recovery distance, recovery safety, total survivability, range of attacks in general, safety of maneuvers, and stage viability.

who can honestly outclass MK in a majority of those categories?

 

[DiskaSM]

How do you outclass a character in enough categories to beat them when MK is literally the best at almost everything in the game.

Speed of attack? #1
Range of attacks in general? #2 (losing only to Ike lol)
Damage output #3 (probably only behind maybe Snake and Olimar, maybe Diddy)
Kill power? as far as easiness of landing #5 ish (prob behind Snake, Olimar, Wario, Fox maybe, DK)
Recovery distance? #1
Safety of recovery? #1
Overall airgame? like at WORST #3 (behind Marth and Zss)
Overall ground game? like at WORST #4 (behind Olimar, Snake, and Diddy)
Overall offstage game? #1
Total Survivability? Probably #6 (because this is encompassed in DI + getting back to the stage safely without getting *****, like Bowser) behind Snake, DK, Wario, Yoshi, and GW.
Safety of Maneuvers? #1 lol
Keep away game? well ruleset depending he actually goes from having around like top 7 to top 1 keep away games.
Stage viability #1, #0 ruleset depending lol

Best case for outclassing MK in those categories is Snake and maybe Olimar.
The only places they beat him are Snake (wins damage output, kill power, survivability, ground game) but gets ***** in the safety of recovery, airgame, safety of maneuvers sections. Snake also loses in stage viability(rulset dependent) Olimar wins in damage output, ground game, kill power, and keep away (only with a LGL), but gets ***** in airgame, recovery distance, recovery safety, total survivability, range of attacks in general, safety of maneuvers, and stage viability.

who can honestly outclass MK in a majority of those categories?

I'd also say Peach and Shiek are top goers for damage racking.
D3 can survive longer than Snake too.

otherwise yeah, this is all true. Just my two cents.

 

[Life]

IIRC Luigi/possibly Sheik have faster attacks than MK on average (mainly due to MK's outlier fsmash), but that doesn't really mean anything.

 

[Cassio]

MK probably loses 55-45 to ICs on certain stages. Potentially worse on FD.

 

[Judo777]

I'd also say Peach and Shiek are top goers for damage racking.
D3 can survive longer than Snake too.

otherwise yeah, this is all true. Just my two cents.

Oh yea D3 forgot sorry. And yea Sheik and Peach do rack damage pretty well they are right there too.

IIRC Luigi/possibly Sheik have faster attacks than MK on average (mainly due to MK's outlier fsmash), but that doesn't really mean anything.

And no I have actually gone through and systematically compared their moves (sheiks and MK's) and I was even generous and took out moves people don't really use (like sheiks dair) as well as MK's dimentional cape and obvious excepetions like Nado and drill rush (moves that can take forever if you choose).

Sheik comes real close to putting up a good fight for frame data, until yuo get to aerials and MK's aerials are just ********. Startup and cool down of his aerials are criminal (i even included bair).

And as a result no Sheik beats Luigi in frame data (not by much mind you).

 

[Life]

This was just something I read. Maybe the person meant startup time or something like that, it was a while ago.

 

[Spelt]

Marth and ZSS definitely do not have a better airgame than mk.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Marth and ZSS definitely do not have a better airgame than mk.

Better range, followups, mobility, and damage output. It's better. And yes, ZSS's uair is a better juggle move than MK's uair in most matchups. -.-

 

[Spelt]

I'll give you mobility and range (for marth) but the others aren't true at all.

How does that give her a better airgame... She has one great aerial and another above average aerial and that apparently beats MK's everything?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'll give you mobility and range (for marth) but the others aren't true at all.

How does that give her a better airgame... She has one great aerial and another above average aerial and that apparently beats MK's everything?

I'll just say that in that matchup, if you (as MK) are within Uair range, you are going to feel a lot of pain fairly quickly. ZSS in range for your Uair? Not half as bad–she can get back down without desperately DIing to the ledge or getting a stupid read. Then there's the threat of bair and sideB–two moves with good range, great damage, and who both not only kill early, but put MK in a lousy position against ZSS. Oh, and upB, which has ludicrous upwards reach and combos into Uair... and often sets up for a kill off the top with uair as well. Add to this the fact that ZSS is incredibly slippery in the air between her good aerial mobility, downB, and B-reversal tricks, and MK genuinely loses in the air to ZSS.

How often do you play top ZSSes with MK? Or, you know, any ZSSes with MK? Genuinely wondering here.

 

[Steam]

Better range, followups, mobility, and damage output. It's better. And yes, ZSS's uair is a better juggle move than MK's uair in most matchups. -.-

ZSS's uair doesn't frame trap you into basically anything if you air dodge it.

 

[Spelt]

I'll just say that in that matchup, if you (as MK) are within Uair range, you are going to feel a lot of pain fairly quickly. ZSS in range for your Uair? Not half as bad–she can get back down without desperately DIing to the ledge or getting a stupid read. Then there's the threat of bair and sideB–two moves with good range, great damage, and who both not only kill early, but put MK in a lousy position against ZSS. Oh, and upB, which has ludicrous upwards reach and combos into Uair... and often sets up for a kill off the top with uair as well. Add to this the fact that ZSS is incredibly slippery in the air between her good aerial mobility, downB, and B-reversal tricks, and MK genuinely loses in the air to ZSS.

How often do you play top ZSSes with MK? Or, you know, any ZSSes with MK? Genuinely wondering here.

So ZSS has a better airgame than MK because you personally have a problem dealing with it? I keep forgetting that you think you're the only person that exists or gets an opinion on anything in this forum, my mistake.

Not only do we not gauge a character's effectiveness solely on the attributes of one matchup we also definitely don't do it based on sole experience against one player who is marginally better than you and knows how to take advantage of your habits.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Steam, have you ever played that matchup? Ever? No? Then shut up. Kthx. ^_^

@TokyoGamer: Wait, how, from all of that, did you get "I have a problem with the matchup"? Again, have you ever played that matchup yourself? Or seen it be played at a high level?

 

[Steam]

I thought we were discussing if ZSS had a better air game than MK, not the ZSS vs. MK matchup.

but I have played the matchup, like everyone else, I too had a pocket/secondary MK before he got banned.

 

[Spelt]

@TokyoGamer: Wait, how, from all of that, did you get "I have a problem with the matchup"? Again, have you ever played that matchup yourself? Or seen it be played at a high level?

This has nothing to do with anything we're talking about.

Did you even read my post?

I thought we were discussing if ZSS had a better air game than MK, not the ZSS vs. MK matchup.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

BPC is so bad, lol. MK has the best uair in the game EASILY, ZSS' is too slow, you can just weave around it and/or air dodge through it. She doesn't have the potential to threaten with another uair or shuttle loop.

 

[Zajice]

Well, sure is BPC in here.

 

[Sunnysunny]

BPC is so bad, lol. MK has the best uair in the game EASILY, ZSS' is too slow, you can just weave around it and/or air dodge through it. She doesn't have the potential to threaten with another uair or shuttle loop.

Try n air dodge to the ground Tornado will be over there.

Spoiler

YEAAAA!

 

[Browny]

Ganon for most delicious uair

 

[Smoom77]

you compared smoom to 9b.

meanie head.

 

[Cassio]

BPC is so bad, lol. MK has the best uair in the game EASILY, ZSS' is too slow, you can just weave around it and/or air dodge through it. She doesn't have the potential to threaten with another uair or shuttle loop.

BPC actually isnt too far off. If not for the safety MKs moveset allows him hed definitely be feeling a lot of hurt. Against the rest of the cast though its less clear, in some cases its safe to say a uair like ZSS or marth is more threatening than MKs.

 

[Spelt]

BPC actually isnt too far off. If not for the safety MKs moveset allows him hed definitely be feeling a lot of hurt.

So, basically, what you're saying is if MK's airgame wasn't good, it would be bad?

Glad we got that out of the way...

 

[Cassio]

Was I talking about his air game?

Nope!

 

[Spelt]

So, basically, what you're saying is if MK wasn't good, he would be bad?


Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[ShadowLink84]

BPC actually isnt too far off. If not for the safety MKs moveset allows him hed definitely be feeling a lot of hurt. Against the rest of the cast though its less clear, in some cases its safe to say a uair like ZSS or marth is more threatening than MKs.

Uhhh..

So, basically, what you're saying is if MK's airgame wasn't good, it would be bad?

Glad we got that out of the way...

hmm...

Was I talking about his air game?

Nope!

I see...

So, basically, what you're saying is if MK wasn't good, he would be bad?


Thanks for clearing that up!

I laughed quite a bit. b(^_^)b

 

[Cassio]

So, basically, what you're saying is if MK wasn't good, he would be bad?


Thanks for clearing that up!

Was I talking about whether MK was good or bad?

Nope!

Honestly though try reading what I actually said and not what I didnt. You may as well have come to the conclusion that I was talking about farm subsidies in Iowa, because just like farm subsidies I wasnt discussing MK's air game or his quality as a character.