Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[B.A.M.]

^^^^ THIS (referring to Vlade's post). Majority of these pro-ban ppl are morons. They just simply dont know how to play this game. Metaknights metagame is eons beyond everyone else because of the players who play him. Why cant ppl understand that? From day one MK's have been active learning how to play legit (the good ones). Its just as any top character in a fighting game. Ppl saying MK makes anyone below high tier nonviable. So tell me why Tyrant (one of the top MKs) is being taken to 3rd game or 5th game by a Sonic player X? Everyone is saying 'oh it doesnt matter about what ADHD, its just one person.' How bout you stop and think about who hes playing. M2K, the undisputed best player of brawl, you think he doesnt practice? You think he just had his own frame data magically? You think he didnt invest any time into this game? People are seriously freakin stupid.

If anyone with half a brain thinks about the placings witnessed. The good players keep winning. MK is the best, that much is true. But dont go saying it takes absurdly less skill. Thats only in lower level of play; straight up. I was reading the other day, and tons of ppl were amazed at the thread "shield grabbing nado.' Thats something thats ridiculously old, and yet ppl are amazed. Its sickening how little the majority of the players here contribute. Spouting a superior complex and mediocre rhetoric, the average SWF member hasnt played fighting games competitively. And that doesnt mean going to a tournament. It means actually winning and improving and playing with top players. MK is the ultimate scapegoat in this game. It pisses me off cuz theres some MK mains that actually learn, practice, and actually get better. Those happen to be the ones who win. People keep saying oh we've been trying to learn the match up for 2+ years.


BS. And you know why? Cuz for everyone person trying to actually learn the matchup, theres tons more that beat some noob meta and say they know the matchup then they get trashed by a decent MK and deny respect to that players skillz. THey just say " O METAKNIGHT bROKESZZ!!!" Oh and by the way, guess what? MK's are learning too! imagine that. Ppl need to focus and learn if they are really serious about being competitive. Too many ppl state it and dont have a **** clue as to what that entails.









Get that **** outta here

 

[WindMajor]

I can learn the matchup all I want, but I would only be wasting time, since MK killed Brawl in my region.

 

[AllyKnight]

I dont know **** about this game lol, it looks like I know match up but I really don't I just react to stuff.

 

[M@v]

^because this game is all about playing smart and defensive.

 

[Megavitamins]

u forgot nairo in your set lists D=

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Just reacting to stuff that happens and anticipating the opponents moves and punishing it are how you basiclly win the game. Apart from tech skill brawl is a lot like a game of rock paper scissors. Just predicting what the opponent will do and how to react to it is the most important. Though other stuff is important too.

 

[ADHD]

u forgot nairo in your set lists D=

Wait, who?

 

[Black Mantis]

I dont know **** about this game lol, it looks like I know match up but I really don't I just react to stuff.

Cosign with Ally

 

[orange/xd]

A vast majority of the people who want him banned do not attend tournaments.

 

[xDD-Master]

Haha, too good, its obvious why ADHD doesnt want MK to get banned:

3-3 with mew2king
2-0 with havok
10-0 with ksizzle
0-1 with tyrant (barely lost 1-2 at genesis and will get him later)
2-0 with anti's metaknight
1-0 with judge
1-0 with dojo in MM
2-1 vs atomsk's metaknight
5-1 with inui
approximately even with shadow, too many sets to remember but I have a slight lead by about 3 sets
3-0 with dmbrandon
2-0 with dphat
2-0 with doom
4-0 with orion
1-0 with seibrik, 0-1 with him in MM's

And then:

Without all these MKs you'd see more Marths, more Luigis, more Peachs and more ROBs.

You know the rest of the story guys

 

[Gnes]

Wait, who?

LMAO nice counter

 

[solecalibur]

Yeh hes beatable but compare his frames to anyone else and its just plain stupid , you have to be so much better then the other player (that's playing metaknight) to beat them if you havn't noticed how simple minded to play him sometimes

 

[HoN3Y64]

you have to be so much better then the other player

how does mk take less skill than anyone who can cg?

 

[ShadowLink84]

A vast majority of the people who want him banned do not attend tournaments.

SOmehow I find it very hard to believe that the amount of people who attend tourneys, is equal to those who do not attend tourneys.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A vast majority of the people who want him banned do not attend tournaments.

From what I remember of the polls, it was not a "vast majority". Did more of the people who don't go to tournaments vote to ban MK then to keep MK? Probably. But just because you didn't recognize a name doesn't mean the guy doesn't go to tournaments. On the same token, there were probably people who don't go to tournaments but voted to not ban MK because they thought he looks cool, or they love to use him online and don't really know how he works in offline tournaments. I'd be surprised if more then 10% of the pro-ban votes were from people who had never stepped into an offline tournament before.

I for one want MK banned, but my reasoning has nothing to do with the character itself. Is MK by himself, looking purely at frame data and how gay people can use him, bannable? Not really. He's obviously closer than any other character in the game, and it's not clear cut, along with the fact we've had to ban his IDC and make several rules that are heavily targeted at his direction. But he's not bannable in that sense.

However, if it would do the community more good to ban him then to keep him: ban him. No soft-banning, no additional rules, no "only CP neutral stages". Just flat out ban him. And I for one believe it would be better overall for the community/health of the smash community/tournament turnout to ban him.

Would characters like Snake and Diddy Kong rise in attendance? Yes. However, they both have known undisputed counters/disadvantage against characters that aren't MK. That would instantly fix what I believe to be part of the problem. Currently speaking, the best way to beat an MK is to pick him up. Both Snake and Diddy, the best contenders for being dead even against MK, take more time to learn, and then you have to worry about the other MUs that are disadvantaged for them if your other character doesn't cover that MU. I should also add both of these characters can't play quite as gay and don't have as boring of ditto matches. More excitement equals more people attending, which equals a healthier community.

The PR scene has already been explained many times over in this topic, so I won't go heavily into it. However, if MK was banned, they wouldn't be having their problem. Neither side can dispute this claim.

There is also the fact that HOBOs had a rise in attendance when MK was banned, including some people coming down from Northern States to test out a MK banned tournament. There could be other factors involved, true, but it does lend itself a lot more to "Banning MK would be healthy for the community" than "Banning MK hurts the community".

I really don't see why people are talking about MK himself as a character in this topic: banning him for that reason will likely never happen outside of something gamebreaking happening with him (for the second time, if you count IDC). What should be talked about is if the community would benefit from MK being banned overall more that it would benefit from leaving him in the tournament scene. It would be nice if people from MK banned areas (New Mexico and some Northern Area IIRC) could come in and talk about their tournament attendance. I believe most areas with MK legal have started to see small drops in attendance over time, but if the MK banned areas haven't...it would heavily suggest MK needs to go to keep Brawl alive.

 

[xDD-Master]

how does mk take less skill than anyone who can cg?

MKs Ftilt, Downtilt and Upair take less start-up frames then every Grab... so avoiding a grab is easier than avoiding MK, in theory...

 

[Orion*]

i beat you on wifi that one time i picked snake on haldberd 3rd game and ran away.....

*rages at 4-0*

screw it. im just using snake on you now. XD

 

[WindMajor]

From what I remember of the polls, it was not a "vast majority". Did more of the people who don't go to tournaments vote to ban MK then to keep MK? Probably. But just because you didn't recognize a name doesn't mean the guy doesn't go to tournaments. On the same token, there were probably people who don't go to tournaments but voted to not ban MK because they thought he looks cool, or they love to use him online and don't really know how he works in offline tournaments. I'd be surprised if more then 10% of the pro-ban votes were from people who had never stepped into an offline tournament before.

I for one want MK banned, but my reasoning has nothing to do with the character itself. Is MK by himself, looking purely at frame data and how gay people can use him, bannable? Not really. He's obviously closer than any other character in the game, and it's not clear cut, along with the fact we've had to ban his IDC and make several rules that are heavily targeted at his direction. But he's not bannable in that sense.

However, if it would do the community more good to ban him then to keep him: ban him. No soft-banning, no additional rules, no "only CP neutral stages". Just flat out ban him. And I for one believe it would be better overall for the community/health of the smash community/tournament turnout to ban him.

Would characters like Snake and Diddy Kong rise in attendance? Yes. However, they both have known undisputed counters/disadvantage against characters that aren't MK. That would instantly fix what I believe to be part of the problem. Currently speaking, the best way to beat an MK is to pick him up. Both Snake and Diddy, the best contenders for being dead even against MK, take more time to learn, and then you have to worry about the other MUs that are disadvantaged for them if your other character doesn't cover that MU. I should also add both of these characters can't play quite as gay and don't have as boring of ditto matches. More excitement equals more people attending, which equals a healthier community.

The PR scene has already been explained many times over in this topic, so I won't go heavily into it. However, if MK was banned, they wouldn't be having their problem. Neither side can dispute this claim.

There is also the fact that HOBOs had a rise in attendance when MK was banned, including some people coming down from Northern States to test out a MK banned tournament. There could be other factors involved, true, but it does lend itself a lot more to "Banning MK would be healthy for the community" than "Banning MK hurts the community".

I really don't see why people are talking about MK himself as a character in this topic: banning him for that reason will likely never happen outside of something gamebreaking happening with him (for the second time, if you count IDC). What should be talked about is if the community would benefit from MK being banned overall more that it would benefit from leaving him in the tournament scene. It would be nice if people from MK banned areas (New Mexico and some Northern Area IIRC) could come in and talk about their tournament attendance. I believe most areas with MK legal have started to see small drops in attendance over time, but if the MK banned areas haven't...it would heavily suggest MK needs to go to keep Brawl alive.

Agreed. But you have to understand that we can't just argue about if we want him in the community or not without arguing why he is good/bad for the community.

In an earlier post, I said that Metaknight would kill Brawl in one of two ways.
1. Keeping him unbanned will turn a whole bunch of people off for the game, and everyone will just slowly quit.
2. We ban him, and the massive flock of Metaknights that was once Brawl would disappear.

Now I'm starting to reconsider that statement, since I didn't know about the whole HOBO's rise in attendance thing. I honestly think that TOs should exercise MK-Banned tournaments more before any action is taken.

Let's change the topic of this thread for a minute. What's the next big tournament that's coming up? Viridian City? Assuming that you could go, would you go if MK was banned?

 

[xDD-Master]

2. We ban him, and the massive flock of Metaknights that was once Brawl would disappear.

I'm totally sure that abouth 90% of the MKs would just use another character.

Having fun with the game > Having fun with a character (MK)

 

[ksizl4life]

you are 0-2 with Nairo, an MK main from NJ. Fix that ADHD

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I have one question for people:

What is with this talk of "Brawl will die" or "Brawl is dying"? There is no evidence whatsoever to support this. In fact, most evidence supports Brawl becoming MORE popular. So what are you people talking about?

 

[X-FACTOR]

Brawl is awesome!

 

[Kitamerby]

So tell me why Tyrant (one of the top MKs) is being taken to 3rd game or 5th game by a Sonic player X?

Tyrant is countered by Sonic 30:70, bro. Even Kinzer took him to game 3 last hit way back when.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I have one question for people:

What is with this talk of "Brawl will die" or "Brawl is dying"? There is no evidence whatsoever to support this. In fact, most evidence supports Brawl becoming MORE popular. So what are you people talking about?

People have been saying Brawl's death is imminent for well over a year.

You'd think they'd realize how stupid they look by now, but I guess not.

 

[Asdioh]

Although I must say ADHD, that your plea in first post was the logical equivalent of Indiana Jones climbing out of the fridge after being nuked and saying "ne1 who fkin died in dat explosion sux. its mad EZ 2 surviev dat sheit LOL step ur game up"

This

is so much win.

so much.

Lol, off topic but that scene was the biggest bull **** ive ever seen in any movie in my entire life.

kinda, yeah.

(really long post)

good post.

I dont know **** about this game lol, it looks like I know match up but I really don't I just react to stuff.

I really wouldn't be surprised if he was being serious. Ally's amazing like that.

*wonders why he's in the backroom XD*

Let's change the topic of this thread for a minute. What's the next big tournament that's coming up? Viridian City? Assuming that you could go, would you go if MK was banned?

Certainly, but I don't play MK.




As for me, I always think to myself "nah MK shouldn't be banned I'll just try harder to beat him"

And sure, I beat some MKs, but when I come across one that really knows what he's doing, I'm always reminded why the "ban MK" argument exists. Keep in mind I play Kirby, which is an overlooked character for the most part, but arguably isn't shut down by any character in the game.
When going against a MK though, if the Kirby wins, the only thing I can think to myself is "man that MK must have really ****ed up." MK simply has more, and superior, options at any given time, and I'm sure it's like this against most or all characters, not just Kirby. I truly think the matchup is at least close to unwinnable if the MK really knows his stuff, and that's against Kirby, a pretty legit character.

And note when I lose to a good player playing another character, I usually* think that the other player is better than me, or that they knew the matchup better than I did and I need more practice, and I'll know what to do better next time, but when I lose to MK players sometimes I just can't think of what I could have done better besides play MK myself.

*usually, unless it's Snake sometimes. Living to 160%++ easily is such bull****

Now you can tell me, just pick up a secondary, but...why don't I just drop Kirby and main MK, that will solve all my problems at once.

And thus the problem that the community faces ^_^



Personally I'd like it if there were more "MK banned" tournaments to test out, see if there are less TIMING OUTS and BULL**** like that, but there are very few mk-banned tourneys :/

 

[WindMajor]

I have one question for people:

What is with this talk of "Brawl will die" or "Brawl is dying"? There is no evidence whatsoever to support this. In fact, most evidence supports Brawl becoming MORE popular. So what are you people talking about?

In Puerto Rico, Brawl is almost dead.

 

[Kitamerby]

In all honesty, Brawl really is dying in my area. At this rate I'm going to have to hop over to cali for my tournament fixes. :\

 

[Seagull Joe]

I thought I should give my views on this situation now, because I have a little more power at the moment with the Pound 4 victory.

First off, the set record from the start:

3-3 with mew2king
2-0 with havok
10-0 with ksizzle
0-1 with tyrant (barely lost 1-2 at genesis and will get him later)
2-0 with anti's metaknight
1-0 with judge
1-0 with dojo in MM
2-1 vs atomsk's metaknight
5-1 with inui
approximately even with shadow, too many sets to remember but I have a slight lead by about 3 sets
3-0 with dmbrandon
2-0 with dphat
2-0 with doom
4-0 with orion
1-0 with seibrik, 0-1 with him in MM's

As you can see, I'm pretty solid against metaknight. I know this matchup like the back of my hand. The only full loss is with tyrant, in which the set was quite close game 3 and I feel I have improved alot since genesis. No, diddy does not beat mk, it is 50-50 and DEAD EVEN.

I don't see Nairo on that list who beat you handily twice.

 

[Master Raven]

I have one question for people:

What is with this talk of "Brawl will die" or "Brawl is dying"? There is no evidence whatsoever to support this. In fact, most evidence supports Brawl becoming MORE popular. So what are you people talking about?

Seriously.

Flan, I don't know about PR but here in the US it's still flourishing as ever, even with all these MKs popping in and out, especially in regions like in NJ. As far as I can tell, MK is at least almost never the reason any prominent players here quit.

Although in all honesty I really don't give a **** about what happens to MK at this point.

 

[Roxas M]

just because more Mks appear and tournaments doesn't mean they are killing the brawl scene.

like other people have said: it seems like if you can beat a mk your good but if you can't he's broken and he must be banned.
if you lost.....maybe the ''random'' tourney mk is just more skilled than you.

i mean, how can you tell between the mk won because he's broken and the mk won because the mk ''player'' happens to be better than you.

and if you look at recent tournament results you should notice that only top mks place. even if a ton of mks flock to tournaments that doesn't mean that they are winning.

sure, metaknight looks broken from the frame data and the match-ups.
but very few people can actually use him to his full potential.
if mk was as broken as people say then why isn't he completely dominating the brawl scene?
80% of those mks that go to tourneys won't make it out of pools.
and the 20% that do place are the top mks.


and just because metaknight does good on all stages doesn't mean the person using him is good on all stages. same for character MUs.

its like checkers: mk is a king. just because someone has a king in checkers does that mean you ban it because it has a noticable advantage over the other checkers?
nope.


broken metaknight + human player that isn't broken = mk with flaws that can be used against him.

and everything that he does can be stopped. (except the IDC which HAS been banned)

he can plank......
so can other characters. are you gonna ban them too?
other than that, everything else he does can be punished.




and i also hear the argument that when people lose with ''X'' main they go main mk so they can win.
have you ever heard of them placing with this new found interest of maining mk?

rarely.
sure tournament placing and ranked brawlers do. but they already have the skill to place and win.
just because they did it with mk instead of their original main that means mk is broken?

its not mk. its the person that uses him..

in the right hands mk has the potential to be broken.
but the same can be said about other characters.

 

[arch knight]

why do i get the feeling that from this post ^ its going to end up being another tier discussion.


But mk is not the most dominating force in tournaments as marthshadow said. Sure the frame data shows that most of metas moves have little start up against most but it only becomes a problem when players just continuously spam the same moves over and over again. I just find it sad when people change their main to meta just to win. I mean seriously the rest of the cast is not hard to use all people have to do is just take the d!#@ time and effort to learn them.

 

[Roxas M]

why do i get the feeling that from this post ^ its going to end up being another tier discussion.

they started using other characters as a excuse to ban mk. lol

i'm just using it to state my small and insignificant point.

 

[arch knight]

they started using other characters as a excuse to ban mk. lol

i'm just using it to state my small and insignificant point.

well if we're going to ban other characters because of move sets and frames that would remove a significant amount of characters..then brawl tournaments would be extremely dull with no variety..

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The first MK ban Poll was in October '08 I believe. One of the main arguments was that MK would destroy the Brawl scene sooner or later and that people would quit because of him. More than a year later the biggest smash tournament ever takes place, a Diddy Kong wins it and people still say he destroys the Brawl scene?

Kill yourselves, pro-banners.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I have one question for people:

What is with this talk of "Brawl will die" or "Brawl is dying"? There is no evidence whatsoever to support this. In fact, most evidence supports Brawl becoming MORE popular. So what are you people talking about?

Tournaments in Texas are generally speaking getting less and less people. FS8 had like, 45 people show up for Brawl. While the higher price then last time probably didn't help....most of the time we have like, 80 people at least. I don't think a $10 dollar climb in price for a MUCH better tournament area would cause that many people to not show up, particularly with Xyro moving HOBO to a different date to help out our attendance.

While HOBOs did go up when MK was banned in attendance, MK is no longer fully banned, and attendance is starting to go down again. It was starting to go down during the time period where MK was banned only part of the time. It's a slow drop, but it's there.

El Paso from what I understand is struggling to have enough people anymore to bother hosting tournaments.

Go get banhammered Gheb. I swear if this site actually had mods that bothered to give out infractions you would have been gone long time ago. A Diddy Kong did win yes, but look how many MKs were in the top spots. There is also the fact Diddy is one of the characters closest to going dead even with MK which plays a large factor.

 

[TGM]

HOBO set a record when meta was banned.

 

[Kuraudo]

I think when the numbers actually do start dropping significantly in North America as a whole (EMPHASIS ON "AS A WHOLE"), that's when the foot should be put down on Meta Knight.

Until then?

Specific regions or wherever else can ban Meta Knight to keep themselves afloat. I suggest that Puerto Rico do the same to save their Smash scene for now. Lookit Texas and what they did before!

 

[Paladin77]

Wow great read.
Yeah i agree with you fully
I mean, if M2k is the best MK, and lots of people beat him, then i dont see how people think MK is so over powered. Sure, he has lots of jumps, and alot of approaches, and has invincibility frames like crazy, but imo i dont think he is fully developed yet.

GJ by the way. Gratz on 4pound

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Beating MK isn't the issue. It's overcentralization, bans because of MK, so on so forth. It's never been about whether or not MK is unbeatable.

...has it? Because that's stupid.

 

[HeroMystic]

It popped up a few times, but gets debunked quickly by both sides.