Which character takes the most mental skill to play?

[Matador]

ZSS actually has some of the strongest kill potential in the game

ZSS attacks have extraordinary priority. Side-b, down-b kick, dsmash, and usmash all have ridiculously high priority. Her tilts do, as well

...and all her aerials will win out against most attacks in the game.

ZSS' hits actually deal very respectable damage alone and ZSS builds damage faster than most characters in the cast.

ZSS has more true combos than anyone in the entire cast.

It's a very powerful tether move and leaps and bounds above other tethers in brawl.

ZSS sounds pretty broken.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is just debating theory. You can go at this all day,and still not get a clear answer. It seems to be more preference oriented and opinion based if you look at the statistics are situations and not numbers.
If I were to get my Shield Fair'd by, lets say, a Squirtle, which would I pick? MK's options or Marth's options? It really comes down to whichever feels more comfortable to the player.

Player preference, no. There are objectively better moves in the game, though situations do change things. This can be reduced to raw data, and if squirtle perfectly spaces the fair... Both of them can hit, but one does more damage, guess who?

The thing is, Marth's options are ultimately more versatile and powerful, and that's what makes his OOS game the best in the game.

For example:
Marth getting most of his from OoS stuff? Idk about you, but if I'm in a tournement match and I get killed by a DS OoS, I stay away from his shield at high percents.
Know what I mean?
Theres no point in it.

If you're not MK, what exactly do you plan on doing otherwise?

As I pointed out earlier, the reason that Marth's defensive game is so good is because he can safely poke people, this creates shield pressure and forces them to approach. Since he has a number of poke moves they're very difficult to predict, so making them just about impossible to punish.

The end result is they act similar to projectiles, most characters are forced to approach, and as an extra little thing, most projectile users lack the melee range to fight at Marth's poke range and their projectiles are unsafe there, creating a blind spot.


So, unless you're MK, or one of a select few other characters Marth can't safely poke, you're approaching, which means if you do something wrong, you hit shield. Which mean dolphin slash OOS at kill percents.

It's all preference. There are so many factors you can put in this, so many specifics.
Like, if the opponents at 0% and I use Marth's OoS, The guy can still get back and punish, right?

No, it's got a ton of knockback even at low percents, fastfall it and you should be good. Anyway, pretty much the only reason you'd be dolphin slashing so early is that the opponent is using something that nothing except dolphin slash can counter, which is rare, dancing blade is the more common counter then.

Then you shouldn't pay attention to people who know anything about this game.
Thats what the parenthesis part meant. That isn't how they learn.
They get ***** in tournaments by good MKs. THATS how the learn.

I disagree, even if it's only a few lines to post I take the time to correct them, not everyone has the time to play in tournaments regularly, and understanding the theory of the game is important too.

 

[Flayl]

ZSS sounds pretty broken.

I was going to make myself look like an ***, but you handled it quite nicely. Kudos.

 

[Crackle]

what's hard about learning snake?

 

[SpongeBathBill]

^Snake has so many options with his projectiles - angling, placement, and even the basic decision of which one of them to use. Knowing which projectile to use, when, and how all requires experience and familiarity. His camping game involves (or can involve) a lot of manipulation of the opponent, and learning how to do that isn't something you can just pick up.

I guess you could say these things about every character in the game, but they seem particularly pronounced in Snake. He isn't a technically difficult character imho.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS sounds pretty broken.

The thing is, she would be if not for her extraordinary weaknesses, some of which I talked about but you failed to quote because I guess it made your post seem more biting. Bravo, I guess.

Yeah, she's got a lot of punch but she also has a few devastating weaknesses:

- Poor out of shield options, although this is not as bad as it used to be. This is actually pretty huge weakness because characters with shield pressure are very hard to fight as a result (Sheik is a good example).

- Because our best game is close-to-mid range, we are totally ***** by characters with long-range projectiles with any kind of stun at all. Good examples are Falco and Pit. Sheik also kind of falls into this category.

- Because of poor OOS options, ZSS gets totally owned when locked on a platform with someone underneath her. It blows.

- While her attacks do have high priority, or fast speed (jab isn't high priority but comes out in one frame so it usually wins), we only have a few all-around movse that we rotate through in combat which can quickly lead to stale move negation if you're not careful. This can actually be a pretty big deal and very annoying against characters like Snake who can, if played well, live to very high percents (even higher than usual) vs a ZSS player. Most of her other moves are situational or punishing moves that while good, are not good for every situation.

- Primary setup move, dsmash, is predictable if not used sparingly and the followups can be DI'd out of.

- Grab sucks ***, can't shield grab at all.

- Throws not much better.

- Huge deadzone in the center of side-b, our primary pressuring tool. Agile characters can take serious advantage of this.

There are a ton more. Any ZSS player will tell you that while ZSS has a ton of strengths that make her seem downright broken, her weaknesses are profound enough that she'll never be a top tier character. She could probably be low high tier, though.

 

[Tristan_win]

"ZSS has more true combos than anyone in the entire cast." ~Supermodel From Paris

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175241

You sir are wrong.

 

[Cook Kirby]

Olimar? Sure, he can be easy enough, but mastering the whole use and ordering of Pikming thing isn't the simplest thing to just pick-up straight away...I'm gonna get shouted outta here, aren't I?

 

[Sosuke]

Player preference, no. There are objectively better moves in the game, though situations do change things. This can be reduced to raw data, and if squirtle perfectly spaces the fair... Both of them can hit, but one does more damage, guess who?

The thing is, Marth's options are ultimately more versatile and powerful, and that's what makes his OOS game the best in the game.



If you're not MK, what exactly do you plan on doing otherwise?

As I pointed out earlier, the reason that Marth's defensive game is so good is because he can safely poke people, this creates shield pressure and forces them to approach. Since he has a number of poke moves they're very difficult to predict, so making them just about impossible to punish.

The end result is they act similar to projectiles, most characters are forced to approach, and as an extra little thing, most projectile users lack the melee range to fight at Marth's poke range and their projectiles are unsafe there, creating a blind spot.


So, unless you're MK, or one of a select few other characters Marth can't safely poke, you're approaching, which means if you do something wrong, you hit shield. Which mean dolphin slash OOS at kill percents.





No, it's got a ton of knockback even at low percents, fastfall it and you should be good. Anyway, pretty much the only reason you'd be dolphin slashing so early is that the opponent is using something that nothing except dolphin slash can counter, which is rare, dancing blade is the more common counter then.

I'm really tired and not in the mood to multi-quote, sorry.



Ok, so its pretty obvious that SL > DS, since you keep bringing dancing blade up for everything.

I'm honestly pretty darn sure Marth shouldn't be using DS OoS at low percents. All the other character needs to do it airdodge and run up and Usmash or something. Or grab.

And some of your points are contradicting each other.
You said DS was an OoS killer and that Marth should be getting a lot of his kills OoS.
Ok.
Then if you're using it so much, wouldn't it be degenerated? How are you going to kill with that?
If you say "just substitute DB instead", what if Marth isn't in the position to use DB? Thats what the opponents going to take advantage of.

Situations mean a lot. The game is just a bunch of situations, much like how life is just a bunch of events.
You could say that OVERALL, Marth would be better since he has more options, but if you just exploit the way you attack his shield and limit his options to mainly DS if you think you might take the hit, whats he going to do with DB?
MK just covers all the grounds as having the best "all around" attack OoS.
Players can just take advantage of Marth's OoS and make him use DS to punish every time.

I disagree, even if it's only a few lines to post I take the time to correct them, not everyone has the time to play in tournaments regularly, and understanding the theory of the game is important too.

If they're not going to tournaments, what are they doing talking about MK on smashboards? =/
What are you doing taking them seriously for taking about MK on smashboards?

Even if you still think I'm wrong about addressing their posts:
"I suggest you learn to actually play MK then, cause that'll just get you ripped to shreds."
If you were a noob, would you take that as "correcting"? I wouldn't.
It doesn't help them understand whats wrong at all. It just makes you seem like a jerk.

Something along the lines of "If you're being serious, I would go watch videos of some high-level MKs before making a conclusion like that." would be better.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"ZSS has more true combos than anyone in the entire cast." ~Supermodel From Paris

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175241

You sir are wrong.

I'll correct you on AIM later.

 

[F1ZZ]

I would say Olimar because of the pikman.

 

[fabolous]

I'd probably say snake, sonic, olimar, and ZSS. PT's curve is a little high but isn't too bad, you just need to know what pokemon to use at the right time IMO

 

[Tristan_win]

I'll correct you on AIM later.

haha, if you say so =)

 

[Serris]

SAMUS

PROS:

• Aerials are lagless or nearly lagless on landing.
• Excellent spacing options.
• Racks up damage nicely.
• Excellent, diverse recovery options.
• High priority on Screw Attack, Morph Ball Bomb, and initial jab.
• Has an out-of-shield option.
• Z-air doesn't stale.
• Guaranteed combos from dash attack.
• Has a relatively easy jab lock set-up.
• One of the longest grab ranges in the game.
• Eighth-heaviest character in the game.

CONS:

• No outstanding kill moves. (Earliest kill opportunity at 120%.)
• Any combos outside of dash attack set-ups are highly situational, at best.
• Severe lack of hitstun on nearly all of her moves.
• Grab recovery time is tied with Zero Suit Samus for being the slowest in the game.
• Slow running speed.
• Jab lock set-up is situational and therefore unreliable.
• Smaller character stature renders a large portion of her offensive options useless.
• Second-lightest fall speed in the game, making her incredibly floaty.

________________________

Her metagame is stagnant, and she has limited options in a fight. She's also weighed down by an extremely small playerbase. (13, at most.)

 

[Galanoth7395]

If we're gonna debate about this, why not just make a learning curve tier list?

Yeah, I'd have to go with Snake and Ice Climbers because of the setups and mindgames (and in IC's case, infinite combos). Also the low tiers' characters because it is very difficult to play well with most of them. And yeah F1ZZ, Olimar too because of the pikman*.

*Pikman? You do know it's spelled pikmin, right?

 

[Matador]

The thing is, she would be if not for her extraordinary weaknesses, some of which I talked about but you failed to quote because I guess it made your post seem more biting. Bravo, I guess.

lol, your anger sustains me.

Relax, I wasn't attacking you. I just find it funny how highly you think of your character, much like me and Mario. It's a good thing.

@ Galanoth: ICs pretty much have the highest learning curve. That's not what the OP was asking though. He asked who requires the most techskill/mindgames to play. That's a completely different character. Also, whoever is elected the most technical/mindgame-y will be arbitrarily chosen, since there's really no way to measure either one, just generalize.

Who's to say that ICs take more techskill than Diddy? By how many ATs they need? By the difficulty of the ATs? By how dependent on said ATs they are? It's pretty much an educated guess rather than anything clear-cut.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I like you, but you are overhyping your character

You forgot Uair, which is probably our best KO move. You also forgot Fair; the second hit of fair has a lot of kill potential but is harder to land. Still, we use it a lot. ZSS actually has some of the strongest kill potential in the game, it's just about setups. You can't just walk up to them and smack them with a uair, it doesn't work that way. That leads to the idea that ZSS 'doesn't have kill potential' which isn't true at all.

what is the earliest that she can kill mario with good DI from the center of Final D. im going to guess that its about 130-140 with side b. and than if thats staled, your out right kill potential is actually very low. she can get low percent kills, but that requires her to chase people either way off stage, to the top of the screen or both. if she had a move like dks down smash or marths f smash that can kill under 100 from the middle of final D, thats strong kill potential, not stringing them to the top of the stage so that an up air will kill at 90.

Of the few attacks we use on the ground, ZSS attacks have extraordinary priority. I don't know where you got this information. Side-b, down-b kick, dsmash, and usmash all have ridiculously high priority. Her tilts do, as well, which you didn't even mention (tilts are very very important). Her uair, the most potent and easily landed killing move, has a disjointed hitbox, and all her aerials will win out against most attacks in the game.

agreed, because of her rediculous whip range I very rarely contend with her ground attacks.
her tilts though, arent all that big on priority, they are just fast.

What? The grab isn't important at all. Some players (Snakeee most notably) don't even grab very often at all, except to chain grab. Would we grab more often if it didn't leave us so open? Probably

Sure, spacing is really important. You've got to be all but a spacing god to play ZSS. .

true

ZSS' hits actually deal very respectable damage alone and ZSS builds damage faster than most characters in the cast. And we don't have to worry about them "actually landing," especially at low percents; ZSS has more true combos than anyone in the entire cast.

I once heard that ZSS does the absolute least damage per hit in the game.
also, MK, Fox, Falco, Lucario, Sheik, Sonic and a few others have something to say about ZSS having the most combos in the game

Paralyzer is very very low on the list of moves to learn to use correctly, even though really you should be able to use them all correctly. Dsmash is great, yeah.

Her tether isn't really standard. It connects to the side of the stage nearly from the blast zone and horizontally gets quite a distance as well (with side-b). She can use it multiple times, it spikes edgehoggers, etc. It's a very powerful tether move and leaps and bounds above other tethers in brawl.

Truth

No. ZSS is hard to use because her style of dealing damage isn't at all straightforward. She doesn't just space and smash, as so many other characters in this game do. Connecting with a move can be very difficult, but once you do you are generally rewarded with 40-50% damage, depending on who you're playing. Some moves that many other characters rely on for finishing kills (dair, fsmash, for instance) are borderline worthless and ZSS really suffers out of shield against strong characters. Her recovery is also very versatile and powerful but requires a lot of practice. You won't gimp a good ZSS, but a bad one is absolutely hogtastic. There you go.

I call shenanigans on the bold. theres no characters that consistently gets that much damage per string.



EDIT
I skipped a page so i didnt know this had been taken care of

 

[Snakeee]

what is the earliest that she can kill mario with good DI from the center of Final D. im going to guess that its about 130-140 with side b. and than if thats staled, your out right kill potential is actually very low. she can get low percent kills, but that requires her to chase people either way off stage, to the top of the screen or both. if she had a move like dks down smash or marths f smash that can kill under 100 from the middle of final D, thats strong kill potential, not stringing them to the top of the stage so that an up air will kill at 90.

Side B is only her 3rd strongest move. Down B attack, and B-air are both stronger. And if you're expecting that to be our most relied upon move at this stage of the game, you haven't seen much of her at higher level play lately (which I don't blame you very few have)


agreed, because of her rediculous whip range I very rarely contend with her ground attacks.
her tilts though, arent all that big on priority, they are just fast.

They actually have a ton of priority. Up-tilt beats nearly everything, and for one example of f-tilt I've been using it to beat G&W's B-air every so often.

I once heard that ZSS does the absolute least damage per hit in the game.
also, MK, Fox, Falco, Lucario, Sheik, Sonic and a few others have something to say about ZSS having the most combos in the game

She has a lot of legitimate combos, a lot of which are of course situational to the percentage and the opponent (but what combos in this game arent'?).
Besides true combos, however, her juggle game is spectacular. With the guessing game she can catch an opponent pretty easily in the air regardless of the character she is facing. She has the strongest game in the air, even better than Metaknight's and Wario's.

I call shenanigans on the bold. theres no characters that consistently gets that much damage per string.

Combos to that extent are limited to fast fallers at low percents, but any d-smash combo will instantly rack over 35%.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[GigaBowserXyZ]

i would say snake. need to be careful with the grenades and need to make sure you remember where your C4 and mines are.

 

[Cook Kirby]

Heh heh, it is pretty hilarious when Snake happens to be on his own C4 when it goes off and loses his last life from it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm really tired and not in the mood to multi-quote, sorry.



Ok, so its pretty obvious that SL > DS, since you keep bringing dancing blade up for everything.

Not really, they're situationally better then each other. But Marth has dancing blade too, which gives him an overall better OOS game, because basically every situation you'd want to use SL over dancing blade, dancing blade is as good or better.

I'm honestly pretty darn sure Marth shouldn't be using DS OoS at low percents. All the other character needs to do it airdodge and run up and Usmash or something. Or grab.

Again, DS is for when the opponent is committed, you don't actually use it until the opponent hits your shield OOS.

Come on, you don't seriously shield-drop and do OOS counter options until your opponent actually hits you shield, right?

And some of your points are contradicting each other.
You said DS was an OoS killer and that Marth should be getting a lot of his kills OoS.
Ok.
Then if you're using it so much, wouldn't it be degenerated? How are you going to kill with that?
If you say "just substitute DB instead", what if Marth isn't in the position to use DB? Thats what the opponents going to take advantage of.

Firstly, understand that the reason that DB and DS are great together is most of the time, you don't have to worry about only having one option, you can usually choose whichever suits you.

Dancing blade's hitbox is a frame faster technically (you gotta shield-drop first), but Dolphin slash has the 4 frames of invincibility.

So, until you hit killing percents, except for the "dolphin slash only situations" (aka, jab combos, Falco chaingrab, etc.) use dancing blade.

As for stale moves, dancing blade is amazing at dealing with that, each hit counts as a seperate move as far as staling is concerned, which means 2 dancing blades and you're up to almost fresh even if you hit 9 times in a row with DS. It makes it very easy for Marths to ignore stale moves, because it doesn't effect us much.

Situations mean a lot. The game is just a bunch of situations, much like how life is just a bunch of events.
You could say that OVERALL, Marth would be better since he has more options, but if you just exploit the way you attack his shield and limit his options to mainly DS if you think you might take the hit, whats he going to do with DB?
MK just covers all the grounds as having the best "all around" attack OoS.
Players can just take advantage of Marth's OoS and make him use DS to punish every time.

No, because there are plenty of situations that SL isn't equipped to handle. Functionally, shuttle loop is like dancing blade as far as options go, but weaker because it lacks the versatility of response, and the resistance it carries to stale moves.

How do you plan on limiting the responses to just things that Marth can respond to with Dolphin slash that he can't actually respond with it? As a rule, they're attacks that require commitment, because the attributes that make dolphin slash ideal is it's abilities to prevent combos/chaingrabs and hit through multi-hit moves due to the invincibility frames. When it comes to combos, you already need to pierce Marth's defense. As for multi-hit moves, you're already committed, he will Dolphin slash you, often even if you manage to hit him (jab combos).

For all other situations, he will use whatever suits him, usually dancing blade until you reach kill percents, and then Dolphin slash.

If they're not going to tournaments, what are they doing talking about MK on smashboards? =/
What are you doing taking them seriously for taking about MK on smashboards?

Even if you still think I'm wrong about addressing their posts:
"I suggest you learn to actually play MK then, cause that'll just get you ripped to shreds."
If you were a noob, would you take that as "correcting"? I wouldn't.
It doesn't help them understand whats wrong at all. It just makes you seem like a jerk.

Something along the lines of "If you're being serious, I would go watch videos of some high-level MKs before making a conclusion like that." would be better.

Because they might be future tournament-goers, plus they're part of the community, and when given the right stimulous could be valuable members.


That said, when people make comments like that, they assume it's ommon knowledge, therefore challenging it helps break that impression, even if it's only one line.

 

[DarkThundah]

Captain Falcon.

Basically, every character you fight is SF4 Zangeif.
You can be grabbed out of every special except UpB. The only normal priority move on the ground you have is Utilt, every other move will get beaten.

You are punished for recovering through lag as if you had landed on stage with it. As if it wasn't bad enough that you have a huge moment dependency and you lose momentum after the flip. Oh, also you don't auto ledge grab, so things like Snake's fsmash can hit you while you are trying to grab the edge from below.

You are undoubtedly the worse character in the game. To even get a hit against a good opponent you will needed to outsmart them since you have no safe approaches.

BUT, you are the Manliest character in the game above Ganon, Snake and even Marth.

You have been granted the Knee of Justice which will send your enemies flying with surges of electricity when sweetspotted.

Your side taunt will cause waves of fury to seize your opponent as the crowd screams with the sounds pf "OHHHHH!!!" and "NO HE DI'INT !!" fill the air. This is also the most efficient method against Planking followed closely behind DDD's crouch.

Your down taunt will force opponents to show their moves, even if they don't want to. It was through the use of this tech that it was discovered that sonic bakes a cake and eats it during 8 600ths of a frame.

Your Up B is a grab and if landed you can use again. Also you scream "YES" afterwards, and upon landing you ask "Was it good for you too?"



Your B button is the mighty Falcon Punch. This ledgendary attack is very dangerous to use, best when destroying tether attempt through reversal drops. But whenever landed you will gain fame, fortune, women will flock to you like moths to a flame, a golden chariot will float down to take you home, and the infamous M2K will lose a small bit of his power as it is transferred to you.


=/

lol this made he laugh. I love you.... now back to my 15 page final due in 7 hrs

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not "overhyping." I just hate it when people talk about things they don't understand. Sonic main? You should understand that.

what is the earliest that she can kill mario with good DI from the center of Final D. im going to guess that its about 130-140 with side b. and than if thats staled, your out right kill potential is actually very low. she can get low percent kills, but that requires her to chase people either way off stage, to the top of the screen or both. if she had a move like dks down smash or marths f smash that can kill under 100 from the middle of final D, thats strong kill potential, not stringing them to the top of the stage so that an up air will kill at 90.

The very earliest it will kill from the center of the stage on FD is 120%ish. But it doesn't matter, because side-b isn't a good finisher. With good DI, heavies can survive that until 150%. Bair and Down-b kick both finish a lot earlier, but that doesn't matter, because at 100% two dsmashes and a finisher of your choice = goodbye mario anyway. Other than that, it's a little weird to pretend the whole game takes place on the center of FD. A good portion of ZSS' game is airborne and she can kill off the top at 40% or less with uair and has a great edge game.

By the way, I'd rather be ZSS than Toon Link, who has moves that will kill early and hit hard but can't get any of them off to save his life. ZSS has to wait 10-20% longer, but will get the kill.

I once heard that ZSS does the absolute least damage per hit in the game.
also, MK, Fox, Falco, Lucario, Sheik, Sonic and a few others have something to say about ZSS having the most combos in the game

She has the most "true combos" in the game. They are more situational than the other characters you mentioned, however.

I call shenanigans on the bold. theres no characters that consistently gets that much damage per string.

Dsmashx2->side-b does 41%? fresh.
dsmashx2->uairx2 does 40% fresh.

These are two very simple examples I thought of off the top of my head. They aren't even the strongest strings we can do, and the first one is a true combo.

 

[Martselsoep]

By mental skill I mean mindgames, technical skill, controlling the characters movement and style, using extreme mental skill to overcome bad matchups, etc.

Which characters do you think take the most mental skill to play as?

There is only 1 obvious answer to this question and that answer is offcourse:

RANDOM

 

[Tristan_win]

I take back my claim about sheik being the most mental as if her infinite is proven to be true she will no longer need to remember any other combos besides this one really.

 

[Matador]

lol, you sound disappointed. I expected many backflips with Shiek having a better matchup vs MK than most in the cast.

 

[Tristan_win]

Well it's just I've tried so hard to find the perfect mixture of tilt locks, ftilt combos, and ftilt into usmash while having killing potential if I mess up the ftilt into usmash.

Now I got a infinite which combos into the usmash and kills. What points do I have to using although easier less effect methods of comboing?

I mean even before this came out I thought sheik was going to be able to get into high tier now there's no question about it and better yet her main focus has been set in stone so new comers now know what to spend there time on. In a lot of way this combo has made her less complex, less unique and now she will become more or less a ninja ice climber.

 

[Commander_Beef]

By mental skill I mean mindgames, technical skill, controlling the characters movement and style, using extreme mental skill to overcome bad matchups, etc.

ROB because he has several mindgames...
1.) Glide tossing several different directions makes him have too many options. People don't even use all of them, and just mainly glidetossing backward or forward to a smash.
2.) Mainly gyro techniques.....just simply throwing the gyro is a mindgame because they would expect a glide toss.
A.) While gyro in hand and you press down while being on the ledge, while your opponent is next to the ledge, jump and throw the gyro and follow it up with a fair, causing you to catch the gyro after it hitting your opponent.
B.) Throwing gyro down and picking it up repeatedly is a mindgame I found. Follow that up with a glide toss up, to a smash, then pick up the falling gyro later.
C.) While fastfalling to the stage and your opponent is below you, and you have gyro in your hand, throw it down hoping it will hit your opponent, and Zcatch in the air. (Overcomes Rob's blindspot.)
D.) Short hop Zdrop gyro while spacing yourself slightly backwards...the falling gyro will stop approaches if you can read it correctly, and is a general mindgame.
3.) B-reversal gyro charge cancel to a back air.

All of these and more are also techincally technical skills..

 

[UncleSam]

There is only 1 obvious answer to this question and that answer is of course:

RANDOM

There is so much truth in this post,
if ppl think maining one takes skill try maining them all!
But maining random for having fun doesn't take much effort,
But if you really want to main random you need to learn about every single character and be able to remember what make so&so character tick and use it once the fight has started

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well it's just I've tried so hard to find the perfect mixture of tilt locks, ftilt combos, and ftilt into usmash while having killing potential if I mess up the ftilt into usmash.

Now I got a infinite which combos into the usmash and kills. What points do I have to using although easier less effect methods of comboing?

I mean even before this came out I thought sheik was going to be able to get into high tier now there's no question about it and better yet her main focus has been set in stone so new comers now know what to spend there time on. In a lot of way this combo has made her less complex, less unique and now she will become more or less a ninja ice climber.

It's not an infinite and isn't even that hard to escape.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Snake, Diddy, Toon Link, and Samus. Those 4 always have a lot to concentrate on when fighting. Not to mention, a lot of different spacing techniques and mindgames as well.

 

[Teh Future]

lol I like when people say all of snake's move rely on mindgames.

*mashes over/up tilt*

lol soooooooo hard.

 

[Fatmanonice]

lol I like when people say all of snake's move rely on mindgames.

*mashes over/up tilt*

lol soooooooo hard.

This only works if:

1. Your opponent is a complete tool.

Or

2. Is playing someone like Jigglypuff who doesn't have that many options around it.

 

[ChibiIceClimberz]

Ice Climbers:
• It takes months to learn ICs. :/ You learn other characters by months too but learning the Ice Climbers is a pain, and most players give up easily on trying them since it's frustrating to practice/play them. In other words, the Ice Climbers has the highest learning curve
• General play; most people start of by spamming grabs so practice what you need to do such as spacing aerials, approach what you need such as Blizzards and Squalls, etc.; in other words basic combats
• Has horrid, awkward matchups such as versing Snake. Even if the Ice Climbers has some good matchups, they're still awkward, but most of the time they have bad matchups
• Be smart to keep Nana with you, and not get her separated (this worries most IC players); if Nana dies and you don't know how to play as Solo Ice Climber then it's pretty useless, but try your best
• Squall recovery needs timing for it to get a high distance, even online which is suck'ish ;'(
• Control two at once; in other words desynching
• Find a way to get a grab from a desynch combo and whatnot; SMALL GRAB RANGE
• Muscle memory
• Learning 3 throws and hobbling
• Learning 39 timings of chaingrabs

That's all I know.

 

[Pez55]

I would say ICs because of the reasons stated above

 

[Jim Morrison]

Mental?
Dedede

Sonic

 

[St. Viers]

I'm surprised by people here. (I read first 6 pages, and this last one).

When it comes to OoS, adumbrodeus seems to understand this much better than the people arguing w/ him.

Using dolphin slash OoS is better than MK's/Bowser's/G&W's upB simply because, as he pointed out, it's purpose is to stop shield pressure from committed opponents, not when someone is baiting you to attack out of shield. Also, because of marths reliance on OoS to set up kills, having one that's fast is far better than one that's "safe."

On MK not requiring skill: Either you're joking, or you suck at the game. Neither actually belong in this thread--take it to general brawl discussion or something =P

On the OP, and people's responses to it. You have to fill ALL of his requirements, not just the ones that support the character you want to use as an answer.

Now, for my contribution to this, I'm shocked at the low number of people suggesting G&W. Although most people seem to think all you have to do is spam b-air, that tactic died before simply tornadoing did for MK.

*mindgames*
You need mindgames to get in grabs, or bait people into getting hit by your kill moves. However, mindgames is a player specific attribute, not a character one. However, the varying speeds of d-air, the ability to attack out of upB, up-air's properties, and knowing when to use the bucket (other than as recovery) all help out, vary G&W's ability for "mindgames"

*technical skill*
Techchasing his d-throw, bucket braking, b-air canceling.

*controlling the characters movement and style*
This is a huge part of G&W's game, which is made more versital and mental effort requiring through the properties of his upB, bucket, and use of up-air.

*using extreme mental skill to overcome bad matchups*
Although he's considered a decent character, he is very matchup dependant, and for the many chars he is disadvantaged towards (most of the higher tiered chars) he requires a great amount of mental skill.

 

[Browny]

^^
I laughed till I stopped

 

[xXTACXx]

snake, MK, Toon link and Link

 

[Melomaniacal]

I honestly think Diddy. You can't really just be on auto-drive with Diddy.