Which character takes the most mental skill to play?

[adumbrodeus]

Responses in red.

Could you please us multi-quotes? Responding to that is very annoying.

First and foremost, that was completely un-nessecary. Please refrain from doing it in the future.

Ok, fair enough, but that was more a surprised laugh then anything else, when you take Marth's #1 weakness and tell a Marth main he doesn't have it.... yeah.

You don't use Marth offstage very often do you? Marth has pretty nice edgeguarding abilities. Regarding his smash attacks, fsmash isn't bad unless you overuse it like a tool and even then it has decent range and isn't that easy to counter unless they perfect shield it and they have an equally long ranged attack.

Yes, he's good off-stage, but getting people off-stage in the first place is the issue cause he lacks high-knock-back safe moves.

As for f-smash, no it's really not, here's the frame data.

ADVANTAGE FORMULA: SHIELDSTUN + HIT - SHIELDHITLAG - END (or IASA)


...

Forward Smash
Hit: 10
End: 49
Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 6
ADVANTAGE: -32
Tipper Shield Stun: 16
~Shield Hit Lag: 17
ADVANTAGE: -40

32 frames to get hit in, 40 if we space it so it'll actually kill something.

No, f-smash is horribly unsafe, and horrible at killing unless you tipper it. Never use it unless your opponent has at least 10 frames of lag.

Marth is fairly good at racking up damage and, again, has a decent offstage game. You talk as if his only kill options are Fsmash or Dsmash. Marth has options that can easily help him overwelm his opponent.

He's good at racking damage if he's safe and provokes the opponent into attacking. Granted, some match-ups he gets to make use of his rushdown game, but most match-ups are about being safe.

More like nair, dolphin slash, and bair. With up-smash, f-smash, downsmash being thrown in when things open up.

You don't really know marth that well do you?


But you're missing the point, Marth has plenty of kill options, what he lacks are SAFE kill options, in other words moves that kill at a reasonable percent that he doesn't have to leave himself open unless predicted. All he has is nair that can possibly do that, and that's only against tall characters.

Marth's spacing is important but no where as important as you make it out to be. ZSS and the Ice Climbers definately have games more dependent on spacing then Marth, for example. Spacing with Marth isn't too hard either considering the range of most of his attacks. It's not like ZSS who only has two reliable kill options, B forward and bair, and can't even reasonably kill without proper spacing both on and off stage.

Really?

Marth main, in case you didn't get that.

Marth is the best defensive character in the game, primarily because of his amazing OOS game. The thing is, he doesn't have a projectile, so how can he play defensively if he can't force his opponents to approach?

He pokes them with his safe poke moves. The thing is, they're only safe because of one thing, spacing.

So, without spacing, he cannot apply shield pressure (because he gets shieldgrabbed or countered somehow), which means he can't provoke approaches, which means he can't apply his defensive game.

Which means his entire character theory is right out the window. Yeah, that's so not important.

Which, if we were to be completely honest in this situation, is not that hard for Marth being that his list is more basic than compared to those I listed with higher learning curves.

Not at all, because Marth is a precision character. For his moves, putting any of that into practice requires near-perfect precision, or you're get punished for everything you do.

And this is where I stopped reading... If you're going to go into this debate with an utter lack of respect for the other party, there's really no point in even talking to you. You understood what I said but decided to ridicule it anyways despite it having nothing to do with the topic on hand. When you grow up in a few years, then we'll continue this conversation but, in the meantime, do yourself a favor and consider researching web ediquette. Oh and, yes, I give you permission to make fun of my spelling as well. I'm giving you a free shot; enjoy it.

Actually, I didn't. I took a shot in the dark at one of a couple possibilities, obviously I got lucky.

I have no problem with occasional misspellings if I can be sure what you meant, but when I have to spend 15 minutes trying to figure out what you meant by something you said, you can bet I'll comment on it.

I'm no grammar nazi, but if I made a comment, it should be pretty obvious, I wasn't sure what you meant, and the "I'll assume you meant" comment should've clued you off as well that I had no clue what you were trying to say, so I made up an interpretation and wanted to be sure that you would know that I wasn't intentionally misrepresenting what you said, but was making an honest attempt to figure out what you meant.

No, it's just annoying when people take comments about characters personally and sort of start a vendetta about it. If he's going to try to bait me into flaming him back then there's no point in continuing. I don't want to centralize this thread anyways; I'll go else where for awhile. Quite frankly, I personally don't feel like aplogizing to everyone who doesn't agree 100% with my post the rest of the night as some people have clearly taken offense to it.

Vendetta, where?

Oh, you meant me?

Frankly, I was a little annoyed at things outside and that probably leaked into my post, so I apologize. But, no I wasn't flaming you, nor was I trying to bait you. The laugh at the beginning was for emphasis, because declaring that a character lacks his major weakness that we've been bemoaning since the game comes out is sort of off-putting you know?


However, I stand by my estimations of the game, you're completely missing the central role that spacing plays in Marth's metagame. He SEEMS to be easy, but he's the kind of character who's difficulty is very non-flashy. If you do it right, it looks like normal play (much like yomi SEEMS like getting lucky), if you do it wrong, you just get *****.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

I have to say that ZSS's lack of abuseable stuff or easy kills should put her fairly high on the list. If you don't play smart and get a little creative you've got nothing.

ICs too, especially for manipulating Nana, what with desyncing and the tricks involved in keeping her alive. Also Diddy - whether or not you want to say that learning his bananas is difficult, there's a huge amount of potential you can tap for some cerebral play; same goes for Snake and his projectiles.

 

[Kitamerby]

To anyone saying Marth has the best OoS options in the game: Bowser says "Hi, I don't set myself up for a free kill move of my opponent's choice if they avoid my oos attack."


Also, Ice Climbers.

 

[Cirno]

Some pretty interesting responses in this thread.

By mental skill I mean mindgames,

Mindgames is something each player executes, it isn't a specific tactic or move some characters have or anything.

technical skill,

ICs hands down. Even Yoshi who is able to semi-wave dash through the use of incredibly fast inputs to double jump, move slightly and attack and then repeat, can't compare to immense amount inputs needed to control both climbers effectively.

The biggest difference between the two is that while a Yoshi can choose to use this technique( and will have to be faster with his fingers to do it continuously) he can still not use it and be efficient, where as the IC's need the knowledge of desynch and will be often if not always moving to prevent synching where the character is weakest.

controlling the characters movement and style

If you meant controlling your opponent

Then Snake would be your man. Followed behind Diddy and to to extent of fear changing the usual playstyle-- ICs.

Snake has projectiles to force approaches. Mines to encourage movement a certain way. C4 works in the same manner. Motar to force air dodges and discourage approaches. Nikita drops can be used similarly.Grenades as well which he can stop mid air, force drops from enemies, and time to explode upon impact.

And all of this usually places his opponent right where he wants them. In range for a grab (which by the way can lead to more control if thrown down.) or tilt.


Diddy and his fearsome bananas control to a lesser extent but control none the less. The games he can play by dribbling are amazing. He can also encourage and discourage movement with strategic banana placement. Often times you will see him force opponents into the air, shield, of dodge upon the throwing of a banana. A funny thing he can encourage depending on the player is a dash attack (in hope to catch the banana). Just by having the banana around opponents often go for it if safe enough. As you probably already know the bananas can force opponents into a trip. From here the bananas work the same way Snake's nades, C4, and mines do only better, as you can't roll over a banana and having one in hand with Diddy's great glidetoss game can put them right back into a controlled enviornment or back into the state-- all using the same bananas.

, using extreme mental skill to overcome bad matchups, etc.

Captain Falcon.

Basically, every character you fight is SF4 Zangeif.
You can be grabbed out of every special except UpB. The only normal priority move on the ground you have is Utilt, every other move will get beaten.

You are punished for recovering through lag as if you had landed on stage with it. As if it wasn't bad enough that you have a huge moment dependency and you lose momentum after the flip. Oh, also you don't auto ledge grab, so things like Snake's fsmash can hit you while you are trying to grab the edge from below.

You are undoubtedly the worse character in the game. To even get a hit against a good opponent you will needed to outsmart them since you have no safe approaches.

BUT, you are the Manliest character in the game above Ganon, Snake and even Marth.

You have been granted the Knee of Justice which will send your enemies flying with surges of electricity when sweetspotted.

Your side taunt will cause waves of fury to seize your opponent as the crowd screams with the sounds pf "OHHHHH!!!" and "NO HE DI'INT !!" fill the air. This is also the most efficient method against Planking followed closely behind DDD's crouch.

Your down taunt will force opponents to show their moves, even if they don't want to. It was through the use of this tech that it was discovered that sonic bakes a cake and eats it during 8 600ths of a frame.

Your Up B is a grab and if landed you can use again. Also you scream "YES" afterwards, and upon landing you ask "Was it good for you too?"



Your B button is the mighty Falcon Punch. This ledgendary attack is very dangerous to use, best when destroying tether attempt through reversal drops. But whenever landed you will gain fame, fortune, women will flock to you like moths to a flame, a golden chariot will float down to take you home, and the infamous M2K will lose a small bit of his power as it is transferred to you.

lol

Yeah, leaving out the jokes and stuff Capt fits this bill perfect. I don't even think he has good matchups so that should definitely be a challenge. And he depends on mindgames for everything. He's a community favorite so you'll get teh luv for winning with him. Winning will be very difficult but he has the tools to do it if you can use them. Uairs, jabs,grabs, and Knees are your friend!

Which characters do you think take the most mental skill to play as?

I'd have to say Samus, Marth, and Snake.

Hope I helped even though long post is long.

To anyone saying Marth has the best OoS options in the game: Bowser says "Hi, I don't set myself up for a free kill move of my opponent's choice if they avoid my oos attack."

Yeah, more often than not, if the opponent has a choice whether or not they can avoid his OoS options, he won't use them. Same should go for Boozer.

=/

 

[Jupz]

Dedede is very easy to learn imo.

 

[REL38]

I would say Snake and Diddy. Knowing where and when to use his explosives is key to a match and you have to plan ahead with stuff like mines and c4. Diddy needs to know how to manipulate those nanners' and abuse them.

 

[Pazx]

Meta Knihgt. Like, sometimes I hit A instead of B, and you have to constantly press the Cstick down. It's really hard, and when you do it you end up wearing out the B button > >

 

[adumbrodeus]

To anyone saying Marth has the best OoS options in the game: Bowser says "Hi, I don't set myself up for a free kill move of my opponent's choice if they avoid my oos attack."


Also, Ice Climbers.

Ummm, Marth's got dancing blade too, remember? Any halfway decent Marth will use dolphin slash only when he's positive it'll hit, and it's pretty easy to tell the difference.

Meta Knihgt. Like, sometimes I hit A instead of B, and you have to constantly press the Cstick down. It's really hard, and when you do it you end up wearing out the B button > >

I suggest you learn to actually play MK then, cause that'll just get you ripped to shreds.

 

[Alus]

Meta Knihgt. Like, sometimes I hit A instead of B, and you have to constantly press the Cstick down. It's really hard, and when you do it you end up wearing out the B button > >

Oh i know how it feels...

I am stuck on the part where you press up and B...

 

[Nixernator]

Meta Knihgt. Like, sometimes I hit A instead of B, and you have to constantly press the Cstick down. It's really hard, and when you do it you end up wearing out the B button > >

/Thread.
Edit: 5 internets to you sir.

Also IC, desynchs, CG, spacing, avoiding nana ****. Without any one of those things IC get *****.

 

[Sosuke]

Ummm, Marth's got dancing blade too, remember? Any halfway decent Marth will use dolphin slash only when he's positive it'll hit, and it's pretty easy to tell the difference.

Tru fax:
Every characters OoS moves can get them punished.

MK probably have the safest OoS options.
AKA Up-B.

I suggest you learn to actually play MK then, cause that'll just get you ripped to shreds.

GG's for taking a complete joke post seriously.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Tru fax:
Every characters OoS moves can get them punished.

MK probably have the safest OoS options.
AKA Up-B.

OOS options don't need to be safe to be good, what they need is to be fast. Remember, the idea of OOS options is you use them when your opponent is committed. So yes, while MK's are safer, Marth's are still overall better.

GG's for taking a complete joke post seriously.

Sarcasm only works automatically if just about nobody actually says it, and believe me, plenty of people say that.

 

[Palpi]

I disagree with snake.

Pikachu is definitely hard to play at a high level.

 

[Sosuke]

OOS options don't need to be safe to be good, what they need is to be fast. Remember, the idea of OOS options is you use them when your opponent is committed. So yes, while MK's are safer, Marth's are still overall better.

Ok if you think slightly faster > much safer
even in defensive options
good luck

Sarcasm only works automatically if just about nobody actually says it, and believe me, plenty of people say that.

Meta Knihgt. Like, sometimes I hit A instead of B, and you have to constantly press the Cstick down. It's really hard, and when you do it you end up wearing out the B button > >

If that isn't ridiculously obvious to you, idk what to say.

 

[Palpi]

@adumbrodeus: If marth's OoS upB gets shielded he can get punished very hard, if Metaknights does he can glide away or glide attack you. You are disregarding a huge aspect of OoS options for determining what is better.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok if you think slightly faster > much safer
even in defensive options
good luck



If that isn't ridiculously obvious to you, idk what to say.

You seem to be missing the point that OOS options are supposed to be used while your opponent is in lag, so if you have a very powerful but ridiculously unsafe OOS option, you better make sure that you ONLY USE IT WHEN IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PUNISH. In other words, have amazing but ridiculously unsafe OOS shield only negatively impacts you if you don't have other options.


It isn't ridiculously obvious because people said basically that exact phrase seriously.

@adumbrodeus: If marth's OoS upB gets shielded he can get punished very hard, if Metaknights does he can glide away or glide attack you. You are disregarding a huge aspect of OoS options for determining what is better.

Don't let it get shielded. You've got safer options when you opponent isn't committed enough to make it safe (shieldgrab, dancing blade, shield-drop to jab, dtilt, uptilt, downsmash, f-smash, up-smash, or ftilt, all of which are considerably safer), use them when it's not safe to use dolphin slash.

Basically it's one part of what makes up his amazing OOS game.

 

[Curaga]

Sonic the Hedgehog

and

Solid Snake

Sonic for the fact that you have to make all your tiny damage add up without a projectile, and continue to cancel spin dashes and know how to utilize all his various techs and abilities. Below, and off the stage you have to be incredibly aware of whether your double jump is ready, and what you can possibly do to gimp/kill/recover with your many tricks.

Snake for really obvious reasons. He has so many tricks to master and even without the use of a lot of his more advanced techniques, you have to be incredibly aware of where your projectiles and grenades are in relation to: yourself, your opponent, your mines, the ledge, ~

Snake mains must have worked through several headaches to be accomplished.

 

[LuigiKing]

lol diddy

people who say diddy either
1) main him, thus have character bias
2) have never played AS him properly, thus don't realise how easy he is to win with (in most matchups)

IMO

I think lucas is decently high enough up there. He doesnt have any amazingly spammable moves he can safely rack up damage or KO with, and hes got some nice tricks with pk fire and his dair-fsmash, dtilt lock etcs for KO set ups which take precision

I agree, I think Lucas is one of the most technical characters in the game.

 

[Sosuke]

You seem to be missing the point that OOS options are supposed to be used while your opponent is in lag, so if you have a very powerful but ridiculously unsafe OOS option, you better make sure that you ONLY USE IT WHEN IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PUNISH. In other words, have amazing but ridiculously unsafe OOS shield only negatively impacts you if you don't have other options.

I think I know what OoS options are for lolz


So what you're saying is

"Marths is strong and you can only use it very sparingly and only when you're SURE it'll hit"
And that its better then MK who can do it whenever and be safer?

How is that better?
It barely does more damage. It's knockback isn't even that big of a deal since there isn't a huge gap between them and you usually don't use OoS options to kill.



And the post about MK was obvious, haha.
I really don't see how you can view that as serious (or take it seriously for that matter).

 

[Matador]

Techskill probably goes to the characters that actually need some degree of practice, such as ICs and Diddy.

For mindgames, it's hard to say since every character needs it. It's more of a player-specific thing. I supposed it'd fall between Ganon and CF since they require the most thinking to overcome their faults and be played at a professional level. Again, if you see a great player like Ally taking matches off other pros with CF, it's probably not CF that makes this happen, but Ally's ability to mindgame his opponents to make up for CF's shortcomings.

 

[bobson]

It barely does more damage. It's knockback isn't even that big of a deal since there isn't a huge gap between them and you usually don't use OoS options to kill.

I kill quite often with Dolphin Slash, actually. The horizontal knockback makes it much more useful for killing than Metaknight's grounded Shuttle Loop, which goes straight up and typically only kills around 200% with DI.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

I'd say peach takes the most skill to play.

One other thing, I don't think Marth is the best defensive character in this game. That acctually goes to Bowser. Hs Up-B OOS is just as good but safer and he's not as exposed from the back.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sheik at most likely the highest level will take the most mental skill to play as you will have to remember large amounts of numbers and decays

 

[Matador]

One other thing, I don't think Marth is the best defensive character in this game. That acctually goes to Bowser. Hs Up-B OOS is just as good but safer and he's not as exposed from the back.

Marth's DB is useful too OOS and can't be clashed with. I'm not saying that Bowser's OOS game isn't good because it's clearly one of the best, but Marth's is right there with him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think I know what OoS options are for lolz


So what you're saying is

"Marths is strong and you can only use it very sparingly and only when you're SURE it'll hit"
And that its better then MK who can do it whenever and be safer?

How is that better?
It barely does more damage. It's knockback isn't even that big of a deal since there isn't a huge gap between them and you usually don't use OoS options to kill.

Because DOLPHIN SLASH IS NOT MARTH'S ONLY OOS OPTION!

If it was, you'd be right, but he has Dancing Blade, those two options alone push him ahead of the VAST majority of the cast.

Then he has shieldgrab (he has a long grab range and a good grab game now), and he has dtilt (possible frametrap), and has retreating fair/nair/bair.

Finally he has his less abusable options that are still effective when the opponent is in lag for a long time, aka, f-smash, downsmash, up-smash, etc. Those are mostly his kill options.


Now, I haven't really explored this yet because I figured that it was known, but Marth's dolphin slash is so amazing because, in addition to being a kill move, it has a frame 0 activation. That means that unless Marth is in hitstun the entire time, he cannot be combo'd, chaingrabbed, whatever.

As far as OOS options go, this means that he can do it through means that have lasting or repeated hitboxes (for example, jab combos). MK can SOMETIMES get through, but that's only if his hurtbox happens to miss the move's hitbox. Yes, he has invincibility too, and the hitbox comes out at frame 5 too, but MK has invincibility at frame 5, Marth has invincibility on frames 1-4, meaning an effective frame 1 activation.


There are only a few moves in the game with this feature (Bowser's fortress and Ivysaur's bullet seed are a few examples) and you KNOW how crucial Fortress is to Bowser. For the same reason, Dolphin Slash is amazing.


And yes, Marth does use Dolphin Slash to kill. Actually, most of Marth's kills or gimp set-ups come from OOS because that's the way the character is played. All his kill options (except nair, and nair only works against tall characters inherently) are punishment, or usable only for edge-guarding.


Really, this seems like a misunderstanding of Marth's character theory, unlike the vast majority of the cast, Marth should be getting almost all of his outright kills OOS. If you're not, except in specific match-ups, you're doing it wrong.

And the post about MK was obvious, haha.
I really don't see how you can view that as serious (or take it seriously for that matter).

Spend a good amount of time in the MK ban thread, you will never be able to judge what to take seriously about MK again.

It's the ACTUAL BELIEFS of a large portion of smashboards, yes it's pathetic, but true.

One other thing, I don't think Marth is the best defensive character in this game. That acctually goes to Bowser. Hs Up-B OOS is just as good but safer and he's not as exposed from the back.

Bowser lacks the ability to provoke a response and provide pressure, he's got good threats to keep the opponent from using projectiles too close, but he lacks the speed and disjointedness of Marth (thus making Marth more able to get and keep optimal spacing), which makes Marth a significantly better defensive character in general.


Fortress is amazing however, definitely a lot better then any single OOS option, in OOS game, it's amazingly close, with Marth only barely edging Bowser out.

 

[Matador]

It's the ACTUAL BELIEFS of a large portion of smashboards, yes it's pathetic, but true.

I love how little their opinions matter even though they come to the polls in droves -_-

@ TW: I would guess that memorizing stale moves, percentages and grab releases would fall into the same category as getting button combinations down to reflex. If that's the case, then I would also infer that Shiek would be up there with Diddy and ICs in higher difficulty techskill at pro levels.

I think the OP is asking for, in regards to overall techskill + mindgame dependency, who's the hardest character to play.

 

[Lythium]

Olimar, with or without his Pikmin.

 

[Matador]

Olimar, with or without his Pikmin.

Please elaborate. I need a good chuckle

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hard characters to learn:

Sonic, ZSS, Link, ICs, Snake, Peach

There are others I'm sure, but those are the ones that stick out in my mind. Yes I know I play ZSS; I chose her in part for the challenge and was not disappointed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I love how little their opinions matter even though they come to the polls in droves -_-

Yeah... I don't know the person in question, for stuff like that, unless you're highly respected, "[/sarcasm]" is required for stuff that people actually believe a lot.

That, and it's an '09 account, while I won't assume that they're inherently stupid, if they say something stupid, they're far more likely to believe it.


Again, the fact that so many people believe it is pathetic, but true.

@ TW: I would guess that memorizing stale moves, percentages and grab releases would fall into the same category as getting button combinations down to reflex. If that's the case, then I would also infer that Shiek would be up there with Diddy and ICs in higher difficulty techskill at pro levels.

I think the OP is asking for, in regards to overall techskill + mindgame dependency, who's the hardest character to play.

Rereading the opening post, I'm withdrawing my statement on Ganondorf, his sheer number of horrible match-ups makes him require a ton of mindgames in order to overcome his tier placement.


But yes, Sheik is very difficult at high levels of play. When it's summer I've really gotta practice my Sheik heavily cause I'm planning on using Zelda/Sheik in a few tournaments.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm interested and slightly flattered that so many people believe Snake requires the most "mental skill" to play.

I'd personally say that some of the more intensive characters (there are DEFINITELY more than this though) are, in no particular order:

MK
Snake
Diddy
Marth
Wario

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Like crystal pointed out, if Falco's learning curve is really so low why is his tournament representation so low?
I bet everyone would pick up a chaingrabbing, lasering and spiking bird with a nice piece of bread and score high - if it was possible.

I'm far from neutral though

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm interested and slightly flattered that so many people believe Snake requires the most "mental skill" to play.

I'd personally say that some of the more intensive characters (there are DEFINITELY more than this though) are, in no particular order:

MK
Snake
Diddy
Marth
Wario

Well, remember that the standard here is:

By mental skill I mean mindgames, technical skill, controlling the characters movement and style, using extreme mental skill to overcome bad matchups, etc.

Which characters do you think take the most mental skill to play as?

which means it should generally follow the tierlist in reverse, because in general, higher tier characters require less skill at mindgames to win because they're good and because the characters are generally better suited to mindgames.

Obviously, there are some exceptions, ICs for example are definitely impossible to play without a ton of techskill, but looking at it again, it should really just be a reverse tierlist.


For that reason, I'd say that the question asked isn't really interesting or useful, a better question would be, "what character requires more mental and/or physical conditioning to play reasonably close to the top of the metagame"?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Snake's metagame is like 75% mindgames.

So yeah, him.

Ganon's metagame is 100% mindgames, without the tools/projectiles and quick fast reflexes of Snake.

But yeah. You can't expect to win a match with Ganon by just going up to your opponent and attacking, you'll only find yourself getting punished. "Everything" Ganon does requires mental play, and a very situational one, to say, cause one wrong move with Ganon results in to a ****load of punishment.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

which means it should generally follow the tierlist in reverse, because in general, higher tier characters require less skill at mindgames to win because they're good and because the characters are generally better suited to mindgames.

They require less skill at mindgames to win because they have more options to make mindgames? I'd argue that makes it harder to use them. When you have 20 options, 16 wrong ones and 4 right ones, knowing to use those 4 right ones at the correct time can take much more skill than if you had 5 options, 2 of which are right ones.

For example, thats why nobody would argue D3 is an incredibly difficult character to play. He runs up and grabs. Thats it. Of course there is much more to that, but compare that depth to other characters. D3's simple option trumps that of almost the entire cast. "Run up and grab" is the only option he needs in most cases. Whereas other characters have far more options to consider and require much more mentail acrobatics to use efficiently in various matchups.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think characters which are dependant on mindgaming others, such as Sonic or Zero Suit Samus require the most mental skill. They have to decieve their opponent and punish the errors they make.

 

[smashkng]

Snake so high learning curve? I don't understand. Snake has no "hard to learn" advanced techniques though they are many.

 

[Red Arremer]

Snake so high learning curve? I don't understand. Snake has no "hard to learn" advanced techniques though they are many.

Snake is a very hard character to master. You have to be able to use his mines and grenades properly, as well as the DACUS/Mortar Slide.
Generally he's a character that needs precision, and every character needing precision is hard to master.

 

[adumbrodeus]

They require less skill at mindgames to win because they have more options to make mindgames? I'd argue that makes it harder to use them. When you have 20 options, 16 wrong ones and 4 right ones, knowing to use those 4 right ones at the correct time can take much more skill than if you had 5 options, 2 of which are right ones.

For example, thats why nobody would argue D3 is an incredibly difficult character to play. He runs up and grabs. Thats it. Of course there is much more to that, but compare that depth to other characters. D3's simple option trumps that of almost the entire cast. "Run up and grab" is the only option he needs in most cases. Whereas other characters have far more options to consider and require much more mentail acrobatics to use efficiently in various matchups.

However, raw options aren't the only thing that make something difficult to use properly, I discussed this extensively in my post on Mindgames Potential. Margin of error also comes into play in a very large way.

Furthermore, better characters often have fewer wrong options relative to their right ones, that's part of the reason why they're better (for example, when I dealt with the Ganondorf vs. MK and Marth match-ups on the Ganon boards, a significant portion of my posts centered on how amazingly difficult it was to get Marth/MK to guess wrong simply because no matter what you chose to do, they had so many right options and so few wrong ones, and even if they chose the "wrong options" your margin of error was amazingly small. Mindgames potential definitely does factor into match-ups, and to beat a character with better match-ups then you, you have to overcome it.


Granted, there are exceptions, Marth, MK, and Snake, are for example, all outliers on this relative to their tier positions. ICs especially are outliers because of the extreme tech skill required.


That said, the question is ultimately useless and stupid, because the answer is basically "the tier list, reversed", it doesn't tell you anything useful like, "how much I time I need to sink into this character to make it good relative to the rest of the character's community", just that you need to be twice as good as M2K to beat M2K if you're using Ganondorf.


Ultimately, I understand what you're getting at, and agree, but the poor wording of the question means that your answer doesn't actually answer the question presented.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Eh, I'll probably be brushed off as being biased, but meh...

I do think Pokemon Trainer is one of the characters that takes mental skill to play. He's quite the flawed character. On the plus side, he's got 3 different characters to use with different traits and weights. They all have different roles and playstyles from one another. But you are tied down by the fact that you have two minutes before you lose even more damage and knockback on top of the typical stale move counter. You've got 3 times the matchups to think about, and Pokemon Change is a mediocre move thanks to the Wii's load times.

I'd have to say if you really want to use Pokemon Trainer, he's a pretty demanding character. You have to know the three Pokemon in and out, and decide when it's best to switch out...and you have to make that opportunity available. That's why I believe playing Pokemon Trainer requires mental skill. Making the right decisions will help you win the match.