Which character takes the most mental skill to play?

[NinjaLAW1234]

By mental skill I mean mindgames, technical skill, controlling the characters movement and style, using extreme mental skill to overcome bad matchups, etc.

Which characters do you think take the most mental skill to play as?

 

[Player-4]

snake or diddy

 

[Alus]

Shiek or Pikachu.

 

[B!squick]

It's obviously [INSERT CHARACTER OF CHOICE HERE], noobs.

Seriously though, they ALL take lots of mental skill to play... well, mostly. *coughMetaKnightcough*

>.>

<.<

 

[Blad01]

Ganondorf. ^_^

 

[Alus]

It's obviously [INSERT CHARACTER OF CHOICE HERE], noobs.

Seriously though, they ALL take lots of mental skill to play... well, mostly. *coughMetaKnightcough*

>.>

<.<

You just ruined the fun man...

lame man...

lame...

 

[GenGastly]

snake in my opinion, almost all of his moves are mind games.

 

[Sosuke]

Snake
IC's
Toon Link

 

[LocoCoco]

snake or diddy. i can never play as ppl who use projectiles for most of their strategy

 

[Sawdust]

Snake and IC's

 

[Necro Dream]

PT itself rather than each, if that makes any sense to anyone. o.O

 

[NinjaLAW1234]

PT itself rather than each, if that makes any sense to anyone. o.O

A little bit lol

I agree that snake is definitely in the top. I was also thinking sonic because of all of his cancles with spin dash and spin charge

 

[Fatmanonice]

In my opinion:

Very High learning curve: Sheik, Yoshi, Ice Climbers, Snake, Sonic, , Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong

High learning curve: Bowser, Peach, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Samus, Lucario, Wario

Average learning curve: Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Link, Zelda, King Dedede, Fox, Captain Falcon, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Ike, Ness, Lucas

Low learning curve: Toon Link, Pit, ROB, Falco, Wolf, Kirby, Olimar, Marth, Mr. Game and Watch

Very low learning curve: Metaknight

If I were to set up a graph showing this, it would look something like this:

VHLC>>HLC>ALC>LLC>>VLLC


To explain each:

VHLC: Playing as these characters straight forward will pretty much result in you getting the crap kicked out of you. A lot of thought and practice has to be put in to be good with these characters and there's an enormous differences between those that know how to play them right and those that don't. Usually involve learning a decent number of techs, strategies, and proper spacing to really excel with them.

HLC: Take a lot of thought and practice but not quite to the degree as the those with a VHLC. Also, you can still be successful with them even if you aren't completely familar with them but it's not all that likely. These characters have their techs too but they aren't completely essential for a win usually (like with Pikachu's QAC).

ALC: Like the name suggests, average. They have their minor quirks but they usually aren't too hard to pick up. Usually you just have to be familar with the characters' strengths and weaknesses to use them with a decent amount of competence.

LLC: These are characters that you can get familar with within a few matches or simply by watching videos. Many of the strategies used by these characters are universal too and not overly complex which makes them even easier to pick up. As you may have noticed, most of them are on the high tier spectrum on the board too which would explain why a lot of them are popular secondaries.

VLLC: Count the number of fingers you have. Are there ten of them? Can you move them? Now, can you hold a controller? Good, then you're good to go. I'm somewhat kidding but Metaknight has a lot more options than most characters thanks to his awesome offstage game, high priority attacks, lack of lag for a majority of his attacks, and his 5 methods of recovery. It also helps that he can almost quite literally shut down nearly half of the cast with some of the things mentioned above. Switching from another character to Metaknight is almost literally a day process.

 

[NinjaLAW1234]

^
Wow, thanks for the input. that was very well done

 

[bobson]

I think people significantly overrate Diddy's learning curve. The bananas aren't that hard to get down.

 

[Negi Kun1]

I think people significantly overrate Diddy's learning curve. The bananas aren't that hard to get down.

I second that, I still agree he has a decent learning curve however.

IMO, I think Link takes a LOT of skill to use effectively. However, I'm a ZSS main and I think she as well takes lots of skill to use effectively as well.

 

[AvaricePanda]

To play effectively, Snake or ICs, then Diddy or someone.

While it takes work to get your Diddy to play effectively, to play "perfectly" he's really hard. Well really anyone's hard to play "perfectly", but there are things about him that just aren't done much in the current metagame because of difficulty, namely single banana locks. Plus, consistency is key with him, and a lot of things take frame-timing, so eh...

Plus, it's not just being able to glide toss and throw a banana at your opponent; unpredictability, knowing what to do if your opponent has a banana, minimizing all chances of your opponent getting a banana, sheild bouncing, z-catching, dribbling, etc., are all what seperate a competent Diddy from a good one.

Why do people underrate MKs learning curve so much? Yeah, he's one of the easiest to pick up and play at a basic level, but to actually play effectively, he's much harder than everyone gives him credit for (lolspacing). Same with Marth; I'm not sure why he's low learning curve on your list. There's a huuuge difference between a competent Marth to a good Marth to a great Marth. Being able to use at first doesn't mean being able to use effectively.

Among the highest learning curves to get effectively good are probably Snake, ICs, Diddy, Pikachu, Peach, and Marth.

 

[Negi Kun1]

Well when you put it like that, I suppose Diddy does take lots of skill, given the situations you listed. And yeah I agree about MK, I mean he doesn't take the most skill out of everyone, but hes also not very simple to use EFFECTIVELY either.

I totally agree with Marth, I use Marth as well and mine is semi decent, and thats more than I can say about a lot of the Marths I have faced. Getting great with Marth takes a LOT of effort.

I also agree with your list at the bottom, although IMO, I feel Pikachu doesn't compare to the other 5 you listed in regard to their learning curves. Just my opinion however.

 

[adumbrodeus]

In my opinion:

Very High learning curve: Sheik, Yoshi, Ice Climbers, Snake, Sonic, , Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong

High learning curve: Bowser, Peach, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Samus, Lucario, Wario

Average learning curve: Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Link, Zelda, King Dedede, Fox, Captain Falcon, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Ike, Ness, Lucas

Low learning curve: Toon Link, Pit, ROB, Falco, Wolf, Kirby, Olimar, Marth, Mr. Game and Watch

Very low learning curve: Metaknight

If I were to set up a graph showing this, it would look something like this:

VHLC>>HLC>ALC>LLC>>VLLC


To explain each:

VHLC: Playing as these characters straight forward will pretty much result in you getting the crap kicked out of you. A lot of thought and practice has to be put in to be good with these characters and there's an enormous differences between those that know how to play them right and those that don't. Usually involve learning a decent number of techs, strategies, and proper spacing to really excel with them.

HLC: Take a lot of thought and practice but not quite to the degree as the those with a VHLC. Also, you can still be successful with them even if you aren't completely familar with them but it's not all that likely. These characters have their techs too but they aren't completely essential for a win usually (like with Pikachu's QAC).

ALC: Like the name suggests, average. They have their minor quirks but they usually aren't too hard to pick up. Usually you just have to be familar with the characters' strengths and weaknesses to use them with a decent amount of competence.

LLC: These are characters that you can get familar with within a few matches or simply by watching videos. Many of the strategies used by these characters are universal too and not overly complex which makes them even easier to pick up. As you may have noticed, most of them are on the high tier spectrum on the board too which would explain why a lot of them are popular secondaries.

VLLC: Count the number of fingers you have. Are there ten of them? Can you move them? Now, can you hold a controller? Good, then you're good to go. I'm somewhat kidding but Metaknight has a lot more options than most characters thanks to his awesome offstage game, high priority attacks, lack of lag for a majority of his attacks, and his 5 methods of recovery. It also helps that he can almost quite literally shut down nearly half of the cast with some of the things mentioned above. Switching from another character to Metaknight is almost literally a day process.

I have a number of disagreements here.

Firstly, Ganondorf...

Not really, while he does have some interesting and difficult techniques (flight of Ganon), he's not a very difficult character to learn, his moveset is pretty standard and not overly technical and he doesn't require a great deal of precision.

Marth, not at all. While he might SEEM easy, to even play half-way decently with him you need a very good grasp of spacing and Marth's optimal spacing. This is not only because of his tippers, but all because his move safety is almost entirely dependant on spacing, and since his defense is best attribute (best OOS game in the game), he needs his opponent to approach. Since he lacks a projectile, he can only accomplish this with safe pokes for shield pressure. This makes him a very difficult character to play.


MK, this becomes much more of a factor in higher levels of play, but in a number of match-ups he needs to play like Marth to win. This is especially noticable in the Snake match-up, where to be safe he has to stay outside of the range of the first hit of Snake's ftilt. Furthermore, Snake can grenade drop, in order to stay outside of the range of the grenade's explosion, MK's spacing has to be utterly impeccable (he only outranges the explosion with his dtilt by a tiny tiny margin). Only there can he safely provoke Snake to approach. Granted, there are a number of match-ups where his approach game destroys, but there's enough match-ups where he has to play defensively, at least at the higher levels of play, to make him at least average overall, with some match-up being incredibly difficult.


Definately more, but those were what I noticed first.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think people significantly overrate Diddy's learning curve. The bananas aren't that hard to get down.

He's not all just about the bananas and they aren't as simple as you make them out to be. They would be if you just used them like Lucario's aura sphere or the Ice Climber's ice blocks but you can use them for stage control like Snake's mines and grenades and glide tossing can lead to some very interesting strategies when used right like in the case of "dribbling." There are also pseudo chain grabs that he can pull off using the glide tosses against certain characters. Diddy also has a lot of nice set ups that can be done out of his dash attack but pulling some of them off (like going immediately into a fair) take a decent amount of practice. You should also consider tricks that can be done with his wall cling and the different aspects for both of his recoveries. For example, pulling out the rocket barrels and then purposedly tripping on one of your own banana peels to create a projectile that can do (if I remember right) 20% if it hits or using the rocket barrel as a spike.

@ the post above:

When it comes to Marth, most of the strategies are universal to the point where it's almost cliche the way people talk about it. Advancing and retreating fairs, spaced dtilts, dancing blade, using counter against recoveries, fthrow/dthrow into fsmash/dancing blade/chasing fairs, fairs/bairs to edgeguard, etc. Marth is no ZSS, that's for sure. Spacing is important to them both but, unlike ZSS, Marth can still kill relatively easy even if he doesn't land tippers. That's the big difference between the two and that's one of the reasons why I put them so far apart on my chart.

Ganondorf is more of an opinion on my part simply because I've played people like Zeonstar who have shown me all the things that can be done with him. Tech chases, great follow ups to his f/throw, different ways you can use dair, autocanceling his b/d/uair into different follow ups, autocanceling his smash attacks into other attacks, Ganon's "super jump", etc. Heck, in one occurance, he was even able to recover using the Warlock Punch. I may be off in my observation but kick me in the face if I haven't been impressed by some of the things that Ganonodorf players are able to pull off.

Regarding Metaknight, I don't see how one match up that's arguebly even discredits what I said about his learning curve...

 

[Sosuke]

And yet Toon Link, who has bombs that cause actual stun, a boomerang that goes forwards AND backwards, and arrows that have jab lock properties, has a low learning curve.

 

[Mecakoto]

Captain Falcon. His manliness alone is hard to master. Even Chuck Norris has trouble.
In reality, I'd say Wario. He has a rather steep learning curve, but can do some amazing things. This is my opinion, of course.

 

[uhmuzing]

I say Fox because of his versatility.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Regarding Toon Link, his strategies are fairly universal too. Retreating and advancing bairs, dthrow into bairs, short hopped double arrows, advancing/retreating hookshots that sometimes lead into other attacks like fsmash, dash attack, or a grab, diagonally thrown boomerangs, short hopped nairs, utilt locks, jab cancels into usmash/grab/spin attack/etc. He also has two decently dependable ways to recover and, if need be, has a wall jump and, in some rare occurances, can even be helped using his own bombs. You also have to consider how he compares to regular Link and the number of techs that Link uses simply to get by while Toon Link really doesn't need his. All in all, Toon Link is an easier to use Link without some of the weaknesses that grind regular Link into the ground.

That's another thing I should mention about my chart, I also list them by how open they are to different playstyles and how often players actually take advantage of it. For example, I personally believe that characters like Marth and ROB are mostly played using the same strategies across the board while characters like Sheik, Peach, and Wario can be played very differently from player to player.

 

[Sosuke]

Just because hes better doesn't mean hes easier to use.
Snake is better then Marth according to the tier list, yet hes harder to use.

All the stuff you said is just weird and doesn't include most of the things good TLs actually do.
Like, idk, Bair to reverse arrow cancel. Go to FIOD's thread on the Toon Link boards if you want to see them, idc.

And since TL isn't a retardedly good character, he "needs" all the techs he can get.
MK doesn't NEED IDC.
Toon Link NEEDS arrow cancels.

 

[adumbrodeus]

When it comes to Marth, most of the strategies are universal to the point where it's almost cliche the way people talk about it. Advancing and retreating fairs, spaced dtilts, dancing blade, using counter against recoveries, fthrow/dthrow into fsmash/dancing blade/chasing fairs, fairs/bairs to edgeguard, etc. Marth is no ZSS, that's for sure. Spacing is important to them both but, unlike ZSS, Marth can still kill relatively easy even if he doesn't land tippers. That's the big difference between the two and that's one of the reasons why I put them so far apart on my chart.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no.

Marth can't kill for ****, that's actually his greatest weakness, he has no safe kill moves except in specific match-ups.



Really understand, it's not even about getting tippers, it's making his moves SAFE. His entire strategy falls apart if he can't safely poke people, he NEEDS spacing for everything he does, otherwise he falls apart, and really good spacing, his needs for spacing places far above any character in the game.


Every character has bread and butter moves, you could literally reduce every character to a similar list, it's just putting it into practice, that's a horse of a different color.

Ganondorf is more of an opinion on my part simply because I've played people like Zeonstar who have shown me all the things that can be done with him. Tech chases, great follow ups to his f/throw, different ways you can use dair, autocanceling his b/d/uair into different follow ups, autocanceling his smash attacks into other attacks, Ganon's "super jump", etc. Heck, in one occurance, he was even able to recover using the Warlock Punch. I may be off in my observation but kick me in the face if I haven't been impressed by some of the things that Ganonodorf players are able to pull off.

I know all those things, I regularly pull off most of them (Ganon's one of my secondaries), but only a few are legitimately hard enough to qualify as truly tech-heavy (flight of Ganon for example). Because he's pretty much never safe on block, his spacing needs are simple, approach period. His techniques are pretty easy or situational enough to be avoided period. Ultimately he's an easy character to learn, but one that requires a lot of yomi skills to play competitively.

Regarding Metaknight, I don't see how one match up that's arguebly even discredits what I said about his learning curve...

English please, get better at it.


I'll assume you meant "I don't see how one match up that's arguable even discredits what I said about his learning curve..."

But you didn't seem to realize was that this was an EXAMPLE match-up, that's an amazingly difficult match-up to play, and that basically applies for every match-up where MK is on the defense.

Furthermore, since it's the top tier vs. character #2 it's a VERY common match-up.


What you don't seem to realize is that MK has a very powerful defensive game too. But his defensive game is difficult, because it requires very good spacing. To master MK, you need to master both aspects, and that definitely contributes heavily to his learning curve.

 

[bobson]

He's not all just about the bananas and they aren't as simple as you make them out to be. They would be if you just used them like Lucario's aura sphere or the Ice Climber's ice blocks but you can use them for stage control like Snake's mines and grenades and glide tossing can lead to some very interesting strategies when used right like in the case of "dribbling." There are also pseudo chain grabs that he can pull off using the glide tosses against certain characters. Diddy also has a lot of nice set ups that can be done out of his dash attack but pulling some of them off (like going immediately into a fair) take a decent amount of practice. You should also consider tricks that can be done with his wall cling and the different aspects for both of his recoveries. For example, pulling out the rocket barrels and then purposedly tripping on one of your own banana peels to create a projectile that can do (if I remember right) 20% if it hits or using the rocket barrel as a spike.

I was doing pretty much everything you mention here within a day when I picked him up, and I'm not a technical player.

While it takes work to get your Diddy to play effectively, to play "perfectly" he's really hard. Well really anyone's hard to play "perfectly", but there are things about him that just aren't done much in the current metagame because of difficulty, namely single banana locks. Plus, consistency is key with him, and a lot of things take frame-timing, so eh...

Are we going for "effectively" or "perfectly," here, though? Obviously, a "perfect" Diddy Kong is going to take a lot more thought than the average character, if only by merit of having two constant weapons apart from himself, but I don't think getting your Diddy up to an effective level is at all as hard as people make it out to be.

Plus, it's not just being able to glide toss and throw a banana at your opponent; unpredictability, knowing what to do if your opponent has a banana, minimizing all chances of your opponent getting a banana, sheild bouncing, z-catching, dribbling, etc., are all what seperate a competent Diddy from a good one.

Like I said, I was handling all of this effectively in matches within the first day I picked him up. The only problem I had was when others had my bananas, because I could never tell whether they were going to be an idiot with them or going to use them intelligently.
I also kept trying to use up-B as an attack, but that's because I do things like that.

I purposely avoided Diddy Kong for awhile because I thought I wouldn't be able to use him well at all, but when I finally did try him out, all of his techniques seemed far too intuitive for me to call them hard to learn. I have a hard time imagining that any character that I of all people can play with effectively within a day has a difficult learning curve.
Hell, I had him up to the level of my Mario within two or three days, and I've been using Mario for half a year.

 

[Fatmanonice]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no.

First and foremost, that was completely un-nessecary. Please refrain from doing it in the future.

Marth can't kill for ****, that's actually his greatest weakness, he has no safe kill moves except in specific match-ups.

You don't use Marth offstage very often do you? Marth has pretty nice edgeguarding abilities. Regarding his smash attacks, fsmash isn't bad unless you overuse it like a tool and even then it has decent range and isn't that easy to counter unless they perfect shield it and they have an equally long ranged attack.



Really understand, it's not even about getting tippers, it's making his moves SAFE.


Marth is fairly good at racking up damage and, again, has a decent offstage game. You talk as if his only kill options are Fsmash or Dsmash. Marth has options that can easily help him overwelm his opponent.

His entire strategy falls apart if he can't safely poke people, he NEEDS spacing for everything he does, otherwise he falls apart, and really good spacing, his needs for spacing places far above any character in the game.

Marth's spacing is important but no where as important as you make it out to be. ZSS and the Ice Climbers definately have games more dependent on spacing then Marth, for example. Spacing with Marth isn't too hard either considering the range of most of his attacks. It's not like ZSS who only has two reliable kill options, B forward and bair, and can't even reasonably kill without proper spacing both on and off stage.


Every character has bread and butter moves, you could literally reduce every character to a similar list, it's just putting it into practice, that's a horse of a different color.

Which, if we were to be completely honest in this situation, is not that hard for Marth being that his list is more basic than compared to those I listed with higher learning curves.


I know all those things, I regularly pull off most of them (Ganon's one of my secondaries), but only a few are legitimately hard enough to qualify as truly tech-heavy (flight of Ganon for example). Because he's pretty much never safe on block, his spacing needs are simple, approach period. His techniques are pretty easy or situational enough to be avoided period. Ultimately he's an easy character to learn, but one that requires a lot of yomi skills to play competitively.



English please, get better at it.

And this is where I stopped reading... If you're going to go into this debate with an utter lack of respect for the other party, there's really no point in even talking to you. You understood what I said but decided to ridicule it anyways despite it having nothing to do with the topic on hand. When you grow up in a few years, then we'll continue this conversation but, in the meantime, do yourself a favor and consider researching web ediquette. Oh and, yes, I give you permission to make fun of my spelling as well. I'm giving you a free shot; enjoy it.

Responses in red.

 

[Sosuke]

@ guy with the rappers in his sig

be nicer


this is the internet lolol

 

[lain]

Highest learning curves (in no order):

MK
Snake
IC's
Diddy Kong

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Is Falco really that low in the learning curve? It seems to me that the learning curve is rather high. Falco is 3rd on tier list and thus that should represent tourney placement, but yet, Falco isnt' on there. I suppose it is from the lack of representation and skilled players using him.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Highest learning curves (in no order):

MK
Snake
IC's
Diddy Kong

Close, but nope.

I'd say that IC definitely have the hardest curve. I still don't understand the CG or desynch at all, and lord knows I've been trying.

I don't get what everyone says about snake. He needs a few tricks to stay alive, but think of the snake board mantra: "space with ftilt, camp with nades". The fact is, to get competent with him doesn't really take much. Getting to a really high level is admittedly not as easy as with some.

MK is piss-easy to learn, and if you wanna pull the spacing argument, I'll pull the longest range and tornado argument.

Diddy Kong... Ionno. Probably.

 

[Sosuke]

Snake has a C-4, a mine, and 2 grenades at any given time.
You need to be smart with that stuff. REALLY smart.

 

[L666]

Close, but nope.

I'd say that IC definitely have the hardest curve. I still don't understand the CG or desynch at all, and lord knows I've been trying.

I don't get what everyone says about snake. He needs a few tricks to stay alive, but think of the snake board mantra: "space with ftilt, camp with nades". The fact is, to get competent with him doesn't really take much. Getting to a really high level is admittedly not as easy as with some.

MK is piss-easy to learn, and if you wanna pull the spacing argument, I'll pull the longest range and tornado argument.

Diddy Kong... Ionno. Probably.

That's shallow. Really, really shallow.
Link's been rated "average"? o_O

 

[Fatmanonice]

@ guy with the rappers in his sig

be nicer


this is the internet lolol

No, it's just annoying when people take comments about characters personally and sort of start a vendetta about it. If he's going to try to bait me into flaming him back then there's no point in continuing. I don't want to centralize this thread anyways; I'll go else where for awhile. Quite frankly, I personally don't feel like aplogizing to everyone who doesn't agree 100% with my post the rest of the night as some people have clearly taken offense to it.

 

[Sosuke]

I was being serious with the "be nicer thing".

In his posts it looks like hes "arguing" and not "debating".
Theres a difference. =P


the "this is the internet lololol"
was to lighten the mood so my post wouldn't just be "Stop being an *******".

 

[Fatmanonice]

*throws sasukebowser the keys to the thread* You take over now. Everything the light touches is our kingdom, yadda, yadda, yadda... Say no to drugs.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Snake's metagame is like 75% mindgames.

So yeah, him.

 

[Sosuke]

No ones character's metagame is mindgames.

That doesn't make sense haha
They're two separate things.

 

[Browny]

lol diddy

people who say diddy either
1) main him, thus have character bias
2) have never played AS him properly, thus don't realise how easy he is to win with (in most matchups)

IMO

I think lucas is decently high enough up there. He doesnt have any amazingly spammable moves he can safely rack up damage or KO with, and hes got some nice tricks with pk fire and his dair-fsmash, dtilt lock etcs for KO set ups which take precision