Which character takes the most mental skill to play?

[DSP]

Link's projectile game is way inferior to TL's http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7088045&postcount=1 <-TL's AT's.
Link is heavier than TL and his tether can get him far in the air, and has ridiculous range
TL is light, is pretty much dead at 100% and needs to plan everything out, with horrible range and low knockback moves
just sayin
EDIT: you do have to work very hard to win with Link tho(that alone takes mental skill), I can give you that

Whoa, there were some pretty sweet projectile stuffs in there I didn't know about concerning TLink. Using them in a competitive environment doesn't seem simple.
Concerning your other arguments, Link's range is easy to get around (attacks are much too laggy for the knockback they do, projectiles' effectiveness varies from "total joke" to "minor threat") and his hard KOers are pretty hard to land (I'm so jealous of TLink's Uair ;_ and punishable as F***.
Link might be dead at well below 100% because of lolrecovery. It isn't uncommon to be gimped at 30% without being able to do much about it. After that, I'll admit that you can live pretty long with perfect DI and momentum cancelling.
I agree with your range argument though. That's what always puts me off when trying TLink... I'm used to Link's suckage by now, but also to his range.
I'll check out some more TLink vids, you got me interested there. Thanks!

 

[KRDsonic]

In no particular order (this is just my oppinion)

Link, Ice Climbers, Snake, and Sonic seem to be the hardest in terms of mental skill.

Link has to constantly keep track of which projectiles he has out and where so he'll know what to do next, you have to live with having to be patient even after you get hit off the stage and don't make it back with your horrible recovery, and he just seems so awkward to use.

Ice Climbers takes months to become decent with, you have to constantly keep track of Nana, when you desync you have to constantly use moves so you don't resync, and you have to keep track of what your opponent's movements are to see where they'll approach from, while still keeping track of both of your characters, to know whether you should defend yourself or use a specific move to mindgame them into thinking you're open while you have the other climber smash them out of their approach. There's also the fact that you have to realize that unless you're fighting someone like M2k, the ground generally will always root against you because everyone seems to hate Ice Climbers.

Snake has to use so many mindgames, and it's hard to keep track of all of your traps. I've tried playing as him and I just can't. x.x

Sonic has to constantly be moving and has to remember all of those combos and stuff. I don't know much about him, but he's so confusing to use.


Other characters that take a great deal of mental skill to use, IMO, are Toon Link, Peach, Yoshi, and Ganondorf.


(Sheik, IMO, doesn't take too much thought to use. Then again, I main IC, so most characters take little thought to me, in comparison. I didn't mention ZSS either since she seems kind of like Sheik, but just different enough that I forget I'm not Sheik when I use her, so I can't really do much with her.)

 

[Hence]

In no particular order (this is just my oppinion)

Link, Ice Climbers, Snake, and Sonic seem to be the hardest in terms of mental skill.

Link has to constantly keep track of which projectiles he has out and where so he'll know what to do next, you have to live with having to be patient even after you get hit off the stage and don't make it back with your horrible recovery, and he just seems so awkward to use.

Ice Climbers takes months to become decent with, you have to constantly keep track of Nana, when you desync you have to constantly use moves so you don't resync, and you have to keep track of what your opponent's movements are to see where they'll approach from, while still keeping track of both of your characters, to know whether you should defend yourself or use a specific move to mindgame them into thinking you're open while you have the other climber smash them out of their approach. There's also the fact that you have to realize that unless you're fighting someone like M2k, the ground generally will always root against you because everyone seems to hate Ice Climbers.

Snake has to use so many mindgames, and it's hard to keep track of all of your traps. I've tried playing as him and I just can't. x.x

Sonic has to constantly be moving and has to remember all of those combos and stuff. I don't know much about him, but he's so confusing to use.


Other characters that take a great deal of mental skill to use, IMO, are Toon Link, Peach, Yoshi, and Ganondorf.


(Sheik, IMO, doesn't take too much thought to use. Then again, I main IC, so most characters take little thought to me, in comparison. I didn't mention ZSS either since she seems kind of like Sheik, but just different enough that I forget I'm not Sheik when I use her, so I can't really do much with her.)

Grabbing takes skill?

If you're talking about learning their chaingrabs, I learned them in a night. Ice Climber's metagame revolves around camping until your opponent manages to make a mistake in their spacing. That really isn't very difficult unless you're an impatient ADDer. If Lain can CG with his eyes closed, I don't think there's much mental skill going on there -more like following a ryhthm mechanic.

 

[Smeh]

I admit that I didn't read the whole thread, but from what I saw, no one has said this yet:

I think that a big difference between a lot of debate on this thread is the difference between becoming competent/good with a character and "perfecting" them. As a ZSS player, I'll use her as an example. For someone that's just starting out, ZSS is ridiculously hard to play as and will most likely lose to a new Snake player also. The difference between the skill level needed to be competent with ZSS and Snake is a complex set of moves (ZSS) versus grenades and u-tilt (Snake).

Now before I get flamed for saying that "grenades and u-tilt" is all that's needed to be a Snake player, that's just for being competent enough to win a match against another player who is new. As both the ZSS player and Snake player progress, the Snake player will most likely get better faster due to his lower learning curve (IMO at least).

But it's when you get up to the higher areas that there is a difference. ZSS has advanced techniques that require spacing, timing, combo-ing, etc... and Snake has advanced techniques and whatnot as well. At this point, Snake's learning curve has kind of leveled out to be (IMO again) about the same as ZSS'. What a lot of people are arguing about is this difference.

So what I would say between these two is:
Snake has a lower learning curve at first
ZSS has a higher learning curve at first

Snake has a higher learning curve at "higher levels"
ZSS has a higher learning curve at "higher levels"

Eh?

 

[KRDsonic]

Grabbing takes skill?

Yes, getting a grab with Ice Climbers and their terrible grab range, while making sure Nana is still by you, while making sure you're under favorable conditions (as in, not on a section of the stage that's about to go away, like in Delphino) takes skill.

If you're talking about learning their chaingrabs, I learned them in a night. Ice Climber's metagame revolves around camping until your opponent manages to make a mistake in their spacing. That really isn't very difficult unless you're an impatient ADDer. If Lain can CG with his eyes closed, I don't think there's much mental skill going on there -more like following a ryhthm mechanic.

You'd be surprised how hard it is to perform a 0-death chain grab at your best when you're under pressure. Anyone can do it occasionally in training mode or in friendlies, but when you're in-tournament, things change a LOT.

If learning to do something in training mode meant you could instantly perform it as well against people, then I'd be waveshining people with Fox in Melee all day already.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to mention, as far as mental skill goes in chain grabbing with them, you have to readjust your mind against every character you fight to remember which chain grabs to use, how fast/slow to perform them, and at what percents to end them.

 

[Pancakesyo]

Link.
or Metaknight
























sike :]

 

[Steeler]

yeah ICs easy. those chaingrabs are sick. especially when you are talking and looking at your opponent as you do them. lain is disgusting mmmmm.

PT takes more mental skill than most.

 

[Flamingo]

Straight Seven Fish Flop!!

Straight Seven Fish Flop!!

 

[Excellence]

Diddy first, Snake second then no one else.

 

[AgentJGV]

Believe it or not, I have to say that I think Ganon takes a lot of skill to play. You have to constantly be avoiding the other player, hit when the timing is perfect (Not right, PERFECT, otherwise you get punish), AND you have to not get grabbed.

It's hard having this much power.

 

[Throwback]

I go with samus altho obviously I'm biased. YOU try playing with a no hit-stun jab and a grab that can be spot-dodged by anyone. Don't even talk about trying to get a kill.

Also she has more moves than anyone else (I believe) unless you count multiple-character characters (PT, zelda/sheik)

Actually come to think of it I'm pretty sure that logically, PT takes the most mental skill bar none. Pretty hard to argue with learning 3 different characters. Please don't try to tell me that snake takes 3x more mental skill to play as than a single pokemanz. Especially in a snake vs PT match...

Snake for mental skill is BS by the way - the true mental skill lies in playing against him.

 

[Jim Morrison]

ITT: Bias towards your own character.

PT, you have to know 114 matchups, what pokemon is best against who, making openings to switchs. Their mental aspect (things you need to learn) is very high. Learning curve and mental skill is something different btw.

 

[Notra]

ICs is number one, and falco is higher than ppl think, he may be easy to start but once u play good ppl, gl killing a good meta

 

[Smeh]

Learning curve and mental skill is something different btw.

My post made it seem like I was talking only about learning curves (which I admit I basically was), but IMO, learning curves and mental skill go hand in hand. If something has a high learning curve it requires more mental skill.

 

[GALE 14]

link or Snake

 

[Alus]

I seriously don't understand what is so difficult about snake...

Are you trying to say that it is difficult to use him at his full potential?

 

[UncleSam]

I seriously don't understand what is so difficult about snake...

I agree, they probably just think that snake would be hard because he's such a good character, and the pro's make it look easy, but when they actually use that character, their helpless.
That or they can't pull off a DACUS

 

[Darknid]

lol..mental skill = memorizing a button input, huh? ICs are not number 1 here. It's probably Link, PT, Snake or Lucas

 

[master-fresh]

That or they can't pull off a DACUS

What the hell is this DACUS that everyone keeps talking about?

 

[UncleSam]

What the hell is this DACUS that everyone keeps talking about?

Dash-Attack-Cancelled-Up-Smash
you dash attack, and do an up smash right when you start the dash attack
every character can do it, but the timing is different for all of them

 

[GwJ]

It's Sonic.

 

[AvaricePanda]

My post made it seem like I was talking only about learning curves (which I admit I basically was), but IMO, learning curves and mental skill go hand in hand. If something has a high learning curve it requires more mental skill.

?

Not exactly.

Take Fox in Melee for example. He has an insanely high learning curve, partly because of the technical skill required to use him. However, after the couple of weeks of practice or however long it may take you to consistently SHFFL nairs, SHFFL dairs into waveshines, SHDL, whatever else is necessary, then it becomes mentally easier because those things become second nature.

Granted, he still takes a lot of mental skill to play, but it's not because of how technically demanding he is (which largely contributes to his high learning curve).

Example: ICs. The chaingrabs are insanely hard to do at first, but once you can do them, they're second nature. Lain and Hylian can do them with their eyes closed now. Granted, they still take mental skill because of desynching and having to think of how to set up for grabs, but it's not the CGs themselves that contribute to the mental skill needed.

 

[JUDGE]

i think snake and ganon

 

[HMD]

Tl Epic Spam

 

[Apollo$]

Mario, since you have to rely on Dodge and punishing everything your opponent does.

 

[Alus]

Mario, since you have to rely on Dodge and punishing everything your opponent does.

Please explain better

 

[Matador]

Mario, since you have to rely on Dodge and punishing everything your opponent does.

....Not...really. Mario's not THAT hard to use. I thought we already settled on Ganon/CF?

 

[zeldspazz]

Hmm idk Zelda is defidently not hardest but I mean if you cant land her lightning kicks (fair, bair, and dair) then her aerial game (if you can even call it an aerial game) is pretty much shot since uair can degrade. Her recovery is pretty hard to get used to and if your hand slips youre screwed. you need some range for her smashes otherwise they are easily DIed out of. Theres also some cool things you can do with Dins =)

Ill get back to you with the most though just wanted to put in my two cents about zelda =P

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You guys are so senseless to not see that Ganon's the hardest character to play competitively with.

All his moves can be punished, even harder than Captain Falcon's. You have to dodge for more than half the game. You could only get a hit with a mindgame. No projectile. Avoid getting one-hit gimped.

Seriously, no one can argue the fact that Ganon's the hardest character to play as in brawl. And if you can, I'd seriously would like to see you come up with better reasons as to why.

 

[kingcobra9]

it seems to me (hopefully i haven't seen enough competitive ganon). but the majority of his game is the choke thing and sh dair's

 

[Ray_Kalm]

it seems to me (hopefully i haven't seen enough competitive ganon). but the majority of his game is the choke thing and sh dair's

Yes, and your point is?

 

[Alus]

I can say with great confidence that Ray Kalm isn't saying that ganon is difficult to learn...but rather nearly impossible to play in tourney settings Kingcobra... If this is what you are getting at...

Its pretty much like...the only way you can get a hit is if you know (or guess) what your opponent is doing (as in "going to do") in every situation ...if you screw up you get *****...No matter the character...(almost)

 

[Eagleye893]

For the original question of this thread:
If you are looking for "most mental skill" as in... need to keep track of and think through everything they do...
Snake, ICs, Ness (& Lucas at least for me), diddy, ZSS, samus, PT ... (no particular order)

If you mean that you need to know of everyone else's as well as your own ATs and common tactics to predict/adapt to situations...
Cfalc, Ness (way too biased), Ganon, Link, Sonic, ICs (at least the way I play them, completely disregarding the alternating grab because I can't do it well), ... (others)

Ganon takes a lot of skill in order to land a (or a couple of) hit(s) as twoskilld4u said. basically whatever you do with ganon needs to be at exactly the right time and place or you will get punished severely.

 

[MRTW113]

CF

You must get used to all the ****. How many people is he at a disadvantage to?

Ganon takes a lot of skill in order to land a (or a couple of) hit(s) as twoskilld4u said. basically whatever you do with ganon needs to be at exactly the right time and place or you will get punished severely.

Punish or be punished.

 

[Lord Exor]

Meta Knight.

 

[Elder Sister]

if someone is skilled he can handle evryone

 

[ZeldEmblIcar]

I think the person you need to think things through with the most would be either mr.G&W or Ganondorf. Maybe, it's just me, but I find those characters infuriatingly slow, so you would need a good idea of what your opponent would do next.

 

[Kamikaze*]

if someone is skilled he can handle evryone

You need to learn about match-ups.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think the person you need to think things through with the most would be either mr.G&W or Ganondorf. Maybe, it's just me, but I find those characters infuriatingly slow, so you would need a good idea of what your opponent would do next.

G&W?



You make me laugh. G&W has proven to be perhaps the simplest char ever. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but there's bucket cancelling, RARBair, and getting used to the spacing on some moves. "Everyone seconds G&W" is the saying, IIRC.

 

[Framerate]

I'd say between having the largest amount of character specific ATs and having a ton of difficult match-ups, Link has to be the most difficult character to play well. It's hard to explain, but easy to see. If you don't believe me, just watch videos of the trifecta (or triforce) of link players: Legan, Izaw, and Deva.