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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

Should Metaknight be banned?


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Swordplay

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This issue is just going to come up over and over again until we ban him isnt it?

Third time we have had this issue because of tournament results?

I'll hold my vote for now.


Three choices does make it interesting though.
Gotta say if "yes" hold above 50% with 3 options that says something.....
 

-Ran

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Honestly, the third option should be removed. By now everyone should have a **** good opinion of how they feel about the ban.
 

cutter

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This issue is just going to come up over and over again until we ban him isnt it?

Third time we have had this issue because of tournament results?

I'll hold my vote for now.


Three choices does make it interesting though.
Gotta say if "yes" hold above 50% with 3 options that says something.....
If this issue continues to recur itself in the future and a huge amount of people continue to want the ban, then there is something wrong.

But once MK is banned, there's no turning back. It is much harder to unban something than to ban it.
 

Asdioh

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Ok, let's talk about not allowing MK to use the "Special" button.

...

This is hard to argue for or against.

MK would still have a decent enough recovery, kinda. He would get gimped pretty badly.

...

To be honest, I'd rather just keep MK as is than ban his Specials. This feels like an all or nothing kind of deal. It would feel so pitiful to beat a MK that can't even use his basic recovery moves.

Even if specials were banned, he would still have access to his amazing lagless swordage. People would still argue to ban the character, while others argued to bring back the B button.



Theres many many more. the representation was at world hobo.
Yes it was, and even if it wasn't, it doesn't change the fact that MK took 7 of the top 8 spots, like I said earlier.

I voted yes. Most for the same reasons that I said initially during the discussion in October.


After reading that after not having seen it for so long, I still agree with my sentiments then.
good post.


It's pretty hard to decide ban or not since both sides present valid arguments. It really does keep going in circles.
 

Master Raven

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There is nothing wrong with the third option. Some of us are truly on the fence with this issue. I was anti-ban until shortly after people were bringing back the debate thanks to the WHOBO results, and right now I would say I'm only leaning, but not choosing yet, pro-ban, after having a discussion with some good players on AIM last night. The main breaking points for me will be the results from both Apex and Genesis.
 

cutter

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Currently I'm against the ban, but I could easily go back to being on the unsure side since I understand the arguments on both sides. I do agree that we need to wait for the results for Apex, Genesis, and also Evo.
 

Ich Bin Awesome

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I think this poll is ineffective. We need better options. I'm sure many people feel that saying yes to a ban sounds a bit too permanent for their liking. A temporary ban seems more appropriate and then, after then ban ends, if nothing has changed in the metagame and MK still dominates we can place another temporary ban.

I'm sure this would get more support than a straight up ban.
 

Praxis

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I think this poll is ineffective. We need better options. I'm sure many people feel that saying yes to a ban sounds a bit too permanent for their liking. A temporary ban seems more appropriate and then, after then ban ends, if nothing has changed in the metagame and MK still dominates we can place another temporary ban.

I'm sure this would get more support than a straight up ban.
"this poll is ineffective"? Was it SUPPOSED to have an effect? It's just a sampling of opinons >_>


Also, "temporary ban" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, sorry. All it's going to do is make the MK players annoyed for a few months, make everyone forget the MK matchup, then bring him back twice as bad because people haven't been spending every hour studying the matchup.
 

complexity1234

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I had an intelligent post ready, but in the end, it doesn't really matter.

I will admit to being sick of being significantly better than the vast majority of my opponents who pick MK, and still have to struggle and worry about securing the win.

I'm tired of losing only to one character (Snakeee's ZSS not included). THAT means something to me.
.
dude ok, thats a bad marth matchup that your complaining about. That doesnt mean you ban Mk because of it. Not to mention other bad matchups marth has but your ignoring those.

Wario has a big disadvantage against Dedede but dedede isn't going to be banned.
This matchup is way worse than Marth vs MK.

Dedede already destroys any mid tier, some high, and lower character that he can chaingrab, like ike, ganon, bowser, samus, peach, Ivysaur, yoshi, charizard, Sonic, ness, lucas,mario, Link, LUCARIO, DK, Wolf (list goes on) much worse than MK. Chaingrab means u cant do ANYTHING, and its constant free damage since his never ends and he has insane grab range.

Then he gimps these characters just as hardcore as Metaknight thanks to his aerials like his high priority back air and multiple jumps.

Diddy and snake lucked out since they have nades and nanerz to stay away from the Chaingrab, but its still a pain.
 

Ich Bin Awesome

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"this poll is ineffective"? Was it SUPPOSED to have an effect? It's just a sampling of opinons >_>
Yes it is a sampling of opinions and opinions on the matter are a bit less black&white than just "yes," "no," "not sure," so it cannot accurately reflect peoples opinions. So like I said, this poll is ineffective.


"Also, "temporary ban" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, sorry.
*ignores hyperbole, accepts apology*
All it's going to do is make the MK players annoyed for a few months...
So far so good...
...make everyone forget the MK matchup, then bring him back twice as bad because people haven't been spending every hour studying the matchup.
--Though people will lose practice with MKs they will not just simply forget the matchup.
--Sword swings both ways: MK mains will also lose practice with top competition.
--Other characters' metagames will further develop as skilled MK mains will work on other characters for tournaments.
 

Thinkaman

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I'm sick of people sayign we should rate for Apex or Genesis, or brining up WHOBO in the first place. Characters should not be banned because of arbitrary tourney results.

I don't care if the top 8 at Genesis or the entire freakin' state of California all play Meta Knight. If they want to, and it's not cheating, that's not my problem.

Meanwhile, if Meta Knight really WAS broken, as is playing as him allows a crappy player to beat an expert (thus invalidating the entire competition), we shouldn't only ban him if everyone decides to use him. Even if only 1 person in the nation wants to use Meta Knight, if he is cheating, he should be banned.

If you aren't in the top 8 at national tourneys, why are you so fixated on the characters used by the players actually in the top 8? Why does it upset you if they use the same character? I just don't get it.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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To ask an even simpler question, how many of you who think Meta Knight is broken use him in tournaments? Of those who do, how many of you lose to people who use characters other than Meta Knight? If you don't main Meta Knight, it seems really silly to claim he's broken since there's no reason not to use a broken character. Actually, a lot of you are complaining there's no reason not to use him; I really hope you practice what you preach and actually use him. If you do main him and don't beat people who use the other characters pretty consistently, you would seem to be producing evidence that he's not broken yourself so support for a ban is pretty mysterious.
 

FB Dj_Iskascribble

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Wario has a big disadvantage against Dedede but dedede isn't going to be banned.
This matchup is way worse than Marth vs MK.
\.
No he doesnt wario even has the advantage it is just fairily stage dependent. He can air camp d3 very very easily

To ask an even simpler question, how many of you who think Meta Knight is broken use him in tournaments? Of those who do, how many of you lose to people who use characters other than Meta Knight? If you don't main Meta Knight, it seems really silly to claim he's broken since there's no reason not to use a broken character. Actually, a lot of you are complaining there's no reason not to use him; I really hope you practice what you preach and actually use him. If you do main him and don't beat people who use the other characters pretty consistently, you would seem to be producing evidence that he's not broken yourself so support for a ban is pretty mysterious.
good post
 

PK-ow!

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To ask an even simpler question, how many of you who think Meta Knight is broken use him in tournaments? Of those who do, how many of you lose to people who use characters other than Meta Knight? If you don't main Meta Knight, it seems really silly to claim he's broken since there's no reason not to use a broken character. Actually, a lot of you are complaining there's no reason not to use him; I really hope you practice what you preach and actually use him. If you do main him and don't beat people who use the other characters pretty consistently, you would seem to be producing evidence that he's not broken yourself so support for a ban is pretty mysterious.
This very conveniently sets up something I was going to post about anyway:

There is a reason for someone not to use MK in tournaments EVEN IF they maintain "MK is broken" - AND this reason does not make their claim "[That] if you do not use MK in tourneys you are a fool" any less forceful.

That reason is that they are wary of the coming ban.

A person who believes a character is so clearly broken that the ban is coming, can very rationally refrain from using that character, to build up other characters in order to be better at the postban game.

However, it can still be said that "Meta Knight is so sick in this game that to not use him if trying to win makes you a fool," because the 'exception' of the rational behaviour above has asymmetric dependence on the situation of the otherwise unqualified claim!

It's not that "Oh and it's largely true that those who don't do X are fools, and there's a minority that is group C not doing X that aren't fools." It's that the situation of "It's largely true that those who don't do X re fools" causes the state-of-affairs "there's group C not doing X that aren't" - the latter one wouldn't be true without the former, and the former couldn't be true without the latter.

The exception doesn't take away from the large statement any more than pointing out that a god cannot create a rock it cannot lift disproves the god's omnipotence.

So, while I won't say you should unask the question, if you were going to use the answers to show there's a contradiction in the "MK will just be used everywhere" claims (which incidentally I can't find with the limited search function, argh), it won't be easy.


EDIT: Some other thoughts:

1) I think it is very important to edit some of the main explanations of this issue into the original post. Things like, setting up why asking "What is the (main) argument against the ban?" misunderstands the nature of the debate entirely. And edit something in there about "If MK were banned" speculativeness (or even experimentation). Then there's no excuse for those who repeat those meaningless sidetracking things.

2) We need to get these facts straight. Is Snake advantaged to MK or isn't he? We can't go forward without the answer to this pivotal question. It occurred to me when reading Pierce7d's post....

Suppose we took it to be true, for reasons something like Pierce said (his post being fresh in my mind and a good read): MK's moves are stupid good, and have features that will never be matched, and exploit this whole game's physics. Let's just take this to be true. Assume it. Would we know, then, MK should be banned? I mean, if we knew MK's mechanics were good to the Qth degree, for what value of Q is that a ban?

And as a dual with that, what sort of tournament information would show he was broken? Clearly taking the top 8 of a serial international event isn't enough. Clearly that plus dominating local and state tournies isn't enough. Apparently cases of well-known pro players switching into MK after a loss to take a 4th spot finish, numbering anecdotally, aren't enough. What would prove it? Taking top 3 everywhere? Seeing a decline in representation throughout brackets, losers as well as winners? Seeing MKs in what proportion of the games of all sets?

I just want to know because when I was reading some posts backed up with clear exposition and facts by good people, I realized partway through, that no matter what they said, at the end, I wouldn't know what it proved. So someone should explain for the rest of us.
 

Pierce7d

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I don't play Metaknight because I'd rather play Marth. However, training with M2k for one night dramatically increased the skill of my MK, and it's nearly as effective as my Marth after learning what to do, and simply 2 days of practice.

I don't want to play MK though, I'd rather win with Marth while I still have the chance because MK players don't know what to do.

Akuma players won't win against top players if they don't know how to spam fireball, etc. I can simply SEE the "akuma fireball" MK is holding, but many people do not see, or do not know how to use it. When more players understand this, then I'll be forced to play another character to make it past round one again players half my skill. Until then, I'm sticking to my guns.
 

Dantarion

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Same.
I know I have the best chance of winning by playing MK, but I would rather play DK/Snake.
I know I would do better as an MK main, but I don't want to win with MK, I want to be known as a good DK/Snake
 

Cook

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To ask an even simpler question, how many of you who think Meta Knight is broken use him in tournaments? Of those who do, how many of you lose to people who use characters other than Meta Knight? If you don't main Meta Knight, it seems really silly to claim he's broken since there's no reason not to use a broken character. Actually, a lot of you are complaining there's no reason not to use him; I really hope you practice what you preach and actually use him. If you do main him and don't beat people who use the other characters pretty consistently, you would seem to be producing evidence that he's not broken yourself so support for a ban is pretty mysterious.
You're assuming that people ONLY play to win and do whatever it takes to maximize their chances of winning. Not everyone does this. There is a reason not to use a broken character: you don't like that character. You like another character. You feel skudzy using characters you feel are broken. Hey, that's even more than one reason!
 

Shaya

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Saying "Temporary banning" is stupid is.. well... stupid.

The reasons you provided for temp banishment being bad is for the situation where it's meant purely to allow meta games of other characters to catch up. Then yeah, you're right, temp ban would mean nothing.

How about the other reason for temporary banishment?
Banning Meta Knight as to establish a metagame that ISNT centralised around meta knight, and allow the people who are 'swing votes' to consider whether they prefer the competitive game with or without meta knight.
HURRR.
Which will in turn result in either a permanent banishment, or having him unbanned as it doesn't really make a 'better' difference.
 

Yanoss1313

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You're assuming that people ONLY play to win and do whatever it takes to maximize their chances of winning. Not everyone does this. There is a reason not to use a broken character: you don't like that character. You like another character. You feel skudzy using characters you feel are broken. Hey, that's even more than one reason!
a very good point, hell i main ganondorf and fox in tournaments, but i know for **** sure, that my falco is ALOT better, i just dont like using him, he's simply not as fun
 
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Saying "Temporary banning" is stupid is.. well... stupid.

The reasons you provided for temp banishment being bad is for the situation where it's meant purely to allow meta games of other characters to catch up. Then yeah, you're right, temp ban would mean nothing.

How about the other reason for temporary banishment?
Banning Meta Knight as to establish a metagame that ISNT centralised around meta knight, and allow the people who are 'swing votes' to consider whether they prefer the competitive game with or without meta knight.
HURRR.
Which will in turn result in either a permanent banishment, or having him unbanned as it doesn't really make a 'better' difference.
Plus, temporary banning should prove to everyone once and for all the results of the effects MK has off and on the metagame and should lead to an end to the year old debate. If no temp. ban is done likely we will see another poll in a few months asking if MK will be banned or not.
 

Beren Zaiga

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This, to me, is what makes the game not as fun anymore. Anyone can just pick Metaknight, and most likely win a set. They don't stick to their respective mains that they've trained on for a long period of time. People pick mains usually for fun, and preference. Metaknight breaks that. The game just turns into a Metaknight fest.
The only real reason the Metaknight won was because the opponent wasn't used to that person using Metaknight. Its a mental thing, you stick with one character, then switch, they don't know if you will spam, or play like a real player, its throws them off.
 

Brinzy

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This is all of my opinion. I'm not claiming anything to be fact that isn't known already. (MK being a beast, for example.)

How about the other reason for temporary banishment?
Banning Meta Knight as to establish a metagame that ISNT centralised around meta knight, and allow the people who are 'swing votes' to consider whether they prefer the competitive game with or without meta knight.
HURRR.
Which will in turn result in either a permanent banishment, or having him unbanned as it doesn't really make a 'better' difference.
So meanwhile, those who are playing MK (top players and otherwise) must go and focus on some other character because their main is banned for some period of time, or they should just play a new game?

You can't just "ban and unban" as if nothing ever really happened and return to what you have. Let us assume he is unbanned after this. MK would still be MK, yes, but let's say everyone went along with this and played other characters when he's banned. He gets unbanned. Ignoring anything about the metagame since you don't seem to like that argument, he will come back without any tournament play whatsoever.

Without any tournament play, he'll be unranked. He will NOT jump back immediately to S-rank because everyone else at the top will have a huge lead on him. Every character would be "inexperienced" against MK, or less experienced, in the tournament scene because he has been absent. I can imagine that people would still play him during that time he was banned from tournaments, so I can also picture that they'd come back and he'd eventually climb his way back to the top again.

What do you gain out of this? The knowledge of what happens when you ban MK would be nice, but at its expense, you:

- force many players to pick up a new main and/or new secondaries
- force an environment that, according to you, isn't shown with MK centralizing the metagame
- force MK back into a staled environment where many players are not gonna be used to fighting him; if top MKs were still playing along and returned to this, they've probably been keeping their MKs hot outside of the tournament scene and they'd come back and **** lots of tournaments
- force a situation that replicates the current one we're in, except now that MK is back and ****** the tournament scene, people know what it is like without MK
- force a permanent ban of MK

In my opinion, that's how things would turn out if everyone played along. What would really happen is more people would drop Brawl and nothing worthwhile would get done except for, I don't know, more fun for everyone else... unless, of course, MK wasn't your biggest problem and Marth was, lol.

All of that assumes he's unbanned.


If he's permanently banned from the start, many people would quit this game, so you're either working with a "centralized" metagame or an immediate, much smaller, much weaker metagame of characters that get ***** by the standard tournament pains-in-the-*** and resume to doing something about their worst fights, which may be more in number because of the absence of MK or possibly less in number if many people quit (though eventually that number would rise again because there will always be new players). In the very long run, I am not sure how things would look, though obviously if you compare the world where MK is banned and the one that he isn't, you'd get a drastic change. However, I believe that the absence of MK would make things worse off because I can see the top tier advancing their metagames and one of those characters finding something "gamebreaking", thus placing that character at the very top of the metagame, where it then becomes over-centralized again.

This is all theorycraft, and apparently people on this site abhor it. I would like to never see this poll again myself, and the only way that'll happen is if MK is banned, and if he is banned, he would be permanently banned. This would be my prediction. In the end, I say that if we're gonna ban him, it needs to be permanent and from the start... but I also say that he doesn't get the ban.
 

Shadow 111

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This is all of my opinion. I'm not claiming anything to be fact that isn't known already. (MK being a beast, for example.)



So meanwhile, those who are playing MK (top players and otherwise) must go and focus on some other character because their main is banned for some period of time, or they should just play a new game?

You can't just "ban and unban" as if nothing ever really happened and return to what you have. Let us assume he is unbanned after this. MK would still be MK, yes, but let's say everyone went along with this and played other characters when he's banned. He gets unbanned. Ignoring anything about the metagame since you don't seem to like that argument, he will come back without any tournament play whatsoever.

Without any tournament play, he'll be unranked. He will NOT jump back immediately to S-rank because everyone else at the top will have a huge lead on him. Every character would be "inexperienced" against MK, or less experienced, in the tournament scene because he has been absent. I can imagine that people would still play him during that time he was banned from tournaments, so I can also picture that they'd come back and he'd eventually climb his way back to the top again.

What do you gain out of this? The knowledge of what happens when you ban MK would be nice, but at its expense, you:

- force many players to pick up a new main and/or new secondaries
- force an environment that, according to you, isn't shown with MK centralizing the metagame
- force MK back into a staled environment where many players are not gonna be used to fighting him; if top MKs were still playing along and returned to this, they've probably been keeping their MKs hot outside of the tournament scene and they'd come back and **** lots of tournaments
- force a situation that replicates the current one we're in, except now that MK is back and ****** the tournament scene, people know what it is like without MK
- force a permanent ban of MK

In my opinion, that's how things would turn out if everyone played along. What would really happen is more people would drop Brawl and nothing worthwhile would get done except for, I don't know, more fun for everyone else... unless, of course, MK wasn't your biggest problem and Marth was, lol.

All of that assumes he's unbanned.


If he's permanently banned from the start, many people would quit this game, so you're either working with a "centralized" metagame or an immediate, much smaller, much weaker metagame of characters that get ***** by the standard tournament pains-in-the-*** and resume to doing something about their worst fights, which may be more in number because of the absence of MK or possibly less in number if many people quit (though eventually that number would rise again because there will always be new players). In the very long run, I am not sure how things would look, though obviously if you compare the world where MK is banned and the one that he isn't, you'd get a drastic change. However, I believe that the absence of MK would make things worse off because I can see the top tier advancing their metagames and one of those characters finding something "gamebreaking", thus placing that character at the very top of the metagame, where it then becomes over-centralized again.

This is all theorycraft, and apparently people on this site abhor it. I would like to never see this poll again myself, and the only way that'll happen is if MK is banned, and if he is banned, he would be permanently banned. This would be my prediction. In the end, I say that if we're gonna ban him, it needs to be permanent and from the start... but I also say that he doesn't get the ban.
if everyone thinks he is truly broken then you should not vote for a temp. ban ... but for a full ban IMO. You can't say that he won't climb back up to 1st as soon as he is allowed again, because what you guys are saying is that he is sooooo broken that there is no way for the game to be fair when he is allowed and that anyone can easily win with him. If this is in fact true... then once the temporary ban is lifted.... the mks should all get first again.
 

MetalMusicMan

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You're assuming that people ONLY play to win and do whatever it takes to maximize their chances of winning. Not everyone does this. There is a reason not to use a broken character: you don't like that character. You like another character. You feel skudzy using characters you feel are broken. Hey, that's even more than one reason!
Feel skudzy then, it is not the job of the community to cater to people who "feel skudzy" about characters.

Pro-ban arguments consist of nothing more than complaining about inconveniences. I would be petitioning just as fervently for banning Olimar, Ice Climbers, and Snake if I had this same ridiculous thought process.
 

Brinzy

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if everyone thinks he is truly broken then you should not vote for a temp. ban ... but for a full ban IMO. You can't say that he won't climb back up to 1st as soon as he is allowed again, because what you guys are saying is that he is sooooo broken that there is no way for the game to be fair when he is allowed and that anyone can easily win with him. If this is in fact true... then once the temporary ban is lifted.... the mks should all get first again.
Is this directed at me?

I am anti-ban. I do not say MK is broken.
 

Shaya

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Him being permanently banned, in the instance that a character suddenly finds a great trait, or an advanced technique that reshuffles the meta game completely, meta knight would have reason to be unbanned.

But saying that meta knight temporarily banned will completely ruin everything is silly. There is DOUBLES still. And I don't think many people believe Meta Knight (or even double meta) is unbeatable in teams.

- "Skill level" in brawl, in relation to characters, is a lot faster to obtain than melee. People can pick up a character and get the gist of them pretty well reasonably fast (with a few exceptions... ics... diddy, etc).
- What's the issue here? People who are unsure would get a much better idea of what is BETTER for competitive brawl once they get a proper sample of 'both sides'.
- So? The choice after "viewing" a metaknightless metagame would be enough definitively for many people. Meta Knight coming back "hot" would be MORE temporary than otherwise. I could also argue that people keeping their MKs hot outside the tournament scene will be vsing people keeping their MK counter abilities hot as well.
- Yeah, and if people know what it's like without meta knight and see it as a better competitive game... Hmmm?
- ...

People are playing brawl for a competitive fighter when it isn't as competitive as other fighters. We're playing it for the characters. We as a scene are out to turn a game into the best competitive game it can be. One character being banned, when there's 39 in brawl shouldn't have SO MANY quit.

And who cares if one character not meta knight is your biggest problem? As a whole Meta Knight is everyones problem. Pick any other character in the game to ban and what would the effect be? Well, maybe dedede, all of a sudden all these low tier characters have a place, DK would get a big boost; but they still all lose to meta knight and everyones still putting a high level of effort into meta knight (oh and d3 has counters! LOL), so they ban snake, well, who what, G&W goes up? Meta Knight still destroys just about everyone snake does. Ban Meta knight -> EVERY CHARACTER HAS A REASON TO MOVE UP.

If Meta Knight had a counter, as in 40:60 or worse, this wouldn't be a problem. Marth may be your worst match up, BUT MARTH HAS COUNTERS.
 

Sephiroths Masamune

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If Meta Knight had a counter, as in 40:60 or worse, this wouldn't be a problem. Marth may be your worst match up, BUT MARTH HAS COUNTERS.
I agree about the Marth being the most likely to defeat a MK. But Shaya is right, if we did find some good meta game with Marth against MK how would we deal with his counters? and if we just pick another character they would just pick MK again so thats out any ideas?
 

Brinzy

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To Shaya:

Ok, there are doubles, where he may not dominate... and then there are singles. Where are the arguments for just banning MK from singles? I don't see how this effectively responds to my point about temp. bans.

- It doesn't matter if it's easy or hard to pick up a new character. All that matters is people are forced to find a new character.

- The issue is that you're forcing people to play another character for the sake of seeing if he ruins the tournament scene. What if he doesn't? Just return him back to the game and have things back to normal so we can live happily ever after? In what world do you think it's that simple?

- MK coming back and dominating would not be temporary because people would not temporarily use him and be bored with him. They'd go back to their original character and resume to what they were doing in the first place with low opposition because almost nobody will be prepared for him. You can argue that people would indeed keep their choices to fight MK up, but apparently, at this moment, MK is still winning to the point that there is a problem. What would change between MK and his opponents if he were to return? Nothing, except those who don't have a personal MK to play for practice will be severely disadvantaged.

- And if people see it as a worse game, then what? How does that refute what I'm saying?

Ok, there are "39" characters, 37 if you count PT as one. Speaking of PT, how many PTs are out there? Zeldas? Marios? Jigglypuffs? Ice Climbers even? I think that it would make so many quit. Most MKs would probably quit and non-MK players would quit because they'd be disgusted with the decision. There would be a sharp drop in players immediately following a ban. Sure, some would pick other characters, but that wouldn't be enough to negate the fact that many current players would quit. Not saying that the scene would die or anything.

No, not every character has a reason to move up. You say "who cares" if MK isn't someone's worst fight, when you need to realize that MK is removing, for sure, Marth, G&W, Falco, and to a lesser extent, Snake and DDD, and perhaps some others that are threats to lower tiers. This means that low tiers can potentially see more G&W or more DDD and therefore not have a reason to move up. If those characters have counters, then I suppose not every character has a reason to move up, because there's someone better to pick anyway. Why would Zelda move up if there are more G&Ws, Marths, and Olimars? More DDDs would be outweighed by the fact that there are more G&Ws, Marths, and Olimars. Therefore, Zelda moves down. This is the case for many characters in this game.

Having counters does not mean lower tiers will move up, especially if those counters exist mainly in the same tier.

I agree about the Marth being the most likely to defeat a MK. But Shaya is right, if we did find some good meta game with Marth against MK how would we deal with his counters? and if we just pick another character they would just pick MK again so thats out any ideas?
I don't particularly understand what you're saying, outside of the beginning, and I beg to differ in that Marth is the most likely to beat an MK.
 

Shadow 111

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Is this directed at me?

I am anti-ban. I do not say MK is broken.
no, sorry... i know by quoting you it made it seem like i was directing everything at you lol. i quoted you because you brought up that after the temp. ban is lifted that mks will have fallen behind, i was trying to say that all of the pro-ban ppl should NOT want a temporary ban because if they really think he is too broken for competitive play then once the temp. ban is lifted... he will immediately resume his place at first.
 

Sephiroths Masamune

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I don't particularly understand what you're saying, outside of the beginning, and I beg to differ in that Marth is the most likely to beat an MK.
I'm saying that if we do find a character even if its DK or sheik the point was that if we find a way to beat MK the will just get good at MK and the counter to the one character who can beat him
 

_Keno_

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I agree about the Marth being the most likely to defeat a MK. But Shaya is right, if we did find some good meta game with Marth against MK how would we deal with his counters? and if we just pick another character they would just pick MK again so thats out any ideas?
MK is by far Marths worst match-up...or so the marth boards say. >.<

Edit: oh no, I double posted....
 

1048576

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To Shaya:


Ok, there are "39" characters, 37 if you count PT as one. Speaking of PT, how many PTs are out there? Zeldas? Marios? Jigglypuffs? Ice Climbers even? I think that it would make so many quit. Most MKs would probably quit and non-MK players would quit because they'd be disgusted with the decision. There would be a sharp drop in players immediately following a ban. Sure, some would pick other characters, but that wouldn't be enough to negate the fact that many current players would quit. Not saying that the scene would die or anything.

.
You're dreaming. How many people do you think already quit or converted to Brawl+ because of Metaknight? How many do you think are about to? What non-MK would quit from MK being banned. Find me one example other than yourself.
 

Tristan_win

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The thing about banning meta knight is that more people are most likely switching to him as time goes on. With that said if meta knight was banned right off to bat(even though it would be unjustly) then we would receive much fewer loses then what we will have now. This line of thought could be applied to the future as well, come next year if this poll happens again and THEN we ban meta knight the numbers of people quitting will most likely be much higher.

Honestly, just as long as the community is still alive and there's a tournament like every weekend to other week that it's possible for me to get to in VA/MD I could care less. Meta knight is a fantastic character but I'm not going to switch to him just because I dislike how he flows but if you beat me with meta knight then you ARE better then me. I decide to be the idiot to not use the best character in the game, no johns.

For the past polls I've voted it was too soon to ban meta knight but this time I voted yes, my reasoning is because it's been a YEAR and you guys are still *****ing about this. I'm thinking maybe if I vote yes you will all shut up, if you need me I'll be chain camping, ftilt usmash killing, grab release dacusing, chain guard gimping, meta knights.
 

Yanoss1313

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Him being permanently banned, in the instance that a character suddenly finds a great trait, or an advanced technique that reshuffles the meta game completely, meta knight would have reason to be unbanned.

But saying that meta knight temporarily banned will completely ruin everything is silly. There is DOUBLES still. And I don't think many people believe Meta Knight (or even double meta) is unbeatable in teams.

- "Skill level" in brawl, in relation to characters, is a lot faster to obtain than melee. People can pick up a character and get the gist of them pretty well reasonably fast (with a few exceptions... ics... diddy, etc).
- What's the issue here? People who are unsure would get a much better idea of what is BETTER for competitive brawl once they get a proper sample of 'both sides'.
- So? The choice after "viewing" a metaknightless metagame would be enough definitively for many people. Meta Knight coming back "hot" would be MORE temporary than otherwise. I could also argue that people keeping their MKs hot outside the tournament scene will be vsing people keeping their MK counter abilities hot as well.
- Yeah, and if people know what it's like without meta knight and see it as a better competitive game... Hmmm?
- ...

People are playing brawl for a competitive fighter when it isn't as competitive as other fighters. We're playing it for the characters. We as a scene are out to turn a game into the best competitive game it can be. One character being banned, when there's 39 in brawl shouldn't have SO MANY quit.

And who cares if one character not meta knight is your biggest problem? As a whole Meta Knight is everyones problem. Pick any other character in the game to ban and what would the effect be? Well, maybe dedede, all of a sudden all these low tier characters have a place, DK would get a big boost; but they still all lose to meta knight and everyones still putting a high level of effort into meta knight (oh and d3 has counters! LOL), so they ban snake, well, who what, G&W goes up? Meta Knight still destroys just about everyone snake does. Ban Meta knight -> EVERY CHARACTER HAS A REASON TO MOVE UP.

If Meta Knight had a counter, as in 40:60 or worse, this wouldn't be a problem. Marth may be your worst match up, BUT MARTH HAS COUNTERS.
i totaly agree 100%
 
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