Official Metaknight Discussion

[Mew2King]

^ it took 2-2.5 years to get in my prime in Melee

prepare to update your chart with MK having like 5 X the points of everyone else after this next half a year, Crow

 

[complexity1234]

@Crow: funny chart, but i wasnt talking about stats. I was talking about looking at videos and comparing skill levels of snakes.

I don't believe in the "equality of players" in this game. I think people are born with a certain amount of natural talent and while they can expand on it, everyone has limited potential. And everyone's potential isn't the same.

Melee is Tech skill/Smarts/Knowledge

Brawl is just smarts/knowledge. The extent to which practice can make you better is limited if you don't have the mind for it.

um, if anything melee would be the harder game to master because it requires alot of tech skill ("natural talent"). Brawl you just need to play alot. Anyway im out, boring. Just play the game and get better instead of complaining (not@u specifically)

 

[Gnes]

I don't believe in the "equality of players" in this game. I think people are born with a certain amount of natural talent and while they can expand on it, everyone has limited potential. And everyone's potential isn't the same.

I like to think of natural talent as a "headstart"...but i do agree with u for the most part. Everyone can not reach the same level...we are not all goku

 

[OverLade]

um, if anything melee would be the harder game to master because it requires alot of tech skill ("natural talent"). Brawl you just need to play alot. Anyway im out, boring. Just play the game and get better instead of complaining (not@u specifically)

Tech skill and natural talent aren't the same thing in melee but in brawl much of technicality is determined by natural talent (reaction speed). Brawl is almost pure reaction speed while Melee is technicallity (which is learned via repetition) as well as reaction speed (smarts).

And the "get better" arguement is the problem because the extent to which you can get better is limited in brawl.

 

[rathy Aro]

Don't worry M2K. ADHD's MK will get first for you.

I like how you guys don't even try to make a criteria and just say its impossible. If its so impossible then this thread should be closed as you guys are not going anywhere with this discussion. When it comes down to it there is a vague ban criteria out there that MK doesn't meet (unless you unban planking. XD). We would need a more liberal one that take dominance and other kinda-bad-but-not-game-breaking things into account.

Personally, I think we should reassess the goal of a tournament. Then reassess the rules based on the former assessment. Then see if a ban on MK agree with that assessment....
dats jus me tho

 

[Turbo Ether]

I like to think of natural talent as a "headstart"...but i do agree with u for the most part. Everyone can not reach the same level...we are not all goku

Yeah, for every winner there has to be vastly more losers.

 

[Flayl]

I'm physically unable to become a top player. Clumsy fingers, slightly slower than average reaction speed, not very competitive environment. TRIPLE WHAMMY!

 

[Espy Rose]

You DO main Bowser.
That's strike four.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

son have you ever heard of the SSBM Statistics List that I made? I was on Smash World Forums during the dying days when this site was only about Smash 64 and called Smash World Forums. I made an account like 2 years later or so in 2002. I didn't know there were tournaments worthwhile to go to until years after I started. A bad move on my part.

Also there is no Snake right now near Ally's level. This does not mean the character is bad, underrated, overrated, etc etc., it just means there is no Snake near Ally's level right now. I destroy other Snakes badly. It's like if Mango was the only Jiggs around before Hbox and let's even take Darc out of the picture. Jiggs would still be really good but there would also be no Jiggs near Mango's level.

I personally think Snake is 3rd best character, but the top 3 (diddy/mk/snake) or even top 5 or so in the game (falco/ICs) are all VERY very close imo.

...

I personally think Snake is 3rd best character, but the top 3 (diddy/mk/snake) or even top 5 or so in the game (falco/ICs) are all VERY very close imo.

Notice that MK is in the "very close" list.

I wonder what would happen to that chart if I just like, stopped going to tourneys. Last time I checked this ranking stuff I had over 3X the points of the next highest MK cuz I go to like every large event in the world

It's going to be even worse after this summer after I **** tons of large events. I'm taking off from a college semester (or two) for months of traveling starting in about 2 months from now or so.

You even made a chart on how MK made 52% of the money but the vast majority of that was just from me getting 1st, and DSF only beat ADHD cuz ADHD tripped and then DSF won last game by 1 damage in the end due to TRIPPING on non-neutrals

Come to think of it... We consider M2K an outlier, like ADHD and Ally. What would happen if we removed our "outliers" from the rest of our statistical reasoning, as we actually should? Basically anyone who scores waaaay more than anyone else with their char (Ally, ADHD, M2K, DEHF?, MikeHaze?). How would that effect the graph crow just posted? We should try that out...

Also, @espy: GTFO sonic sux 2

 

[Raziek]

I think Crow did that once, it was the one that showed that MK was (at any given skill level) 3x better than every other character at LEAST.

 

[Flayl]

You DO main Bowser.
That's strike four.

The truth is I did main MK for a bit to see how I'd do. I did better, but not by a very big margin. Certainly nowhere near top-level of Iberia. So if I'm going to lose money I'd rather lose it with my favorite character.

 

[Judo777]

@ M2k

Actually i think Crow went ahead and took u out of the list at one poin tand MK was still better i think. Then he took u adhd and ally out of the list and it was hilarious how good MK was.

 

[Eddie G]

I'm starting to believe it's really close between those five as well, like...REALLY close. The only thing MK has above the other four is greater stage flexibility. Other than that...with enough practice, study, and effort; players of those five will match up quite closely as has been the case at high/top levels of play, at least from what I've studied and witnessed.

 

[Raziek]

I'm starting to believe it's really close between those five as well, like...REALLY close. The only thing MK has above the other four is greater stage flexibility. Other than that...with enough practice, study, and effort; players of those five will match up quite closely as has been the case at high/top levels of play, at least from what I've studied and witnessed.

If you mean the TOP players of those 5 (The outliers), I agree. But I'm doubting the others are as comparable to MK at the level just below.

 

[Espy Rose]

@espy: GTFO sonic sux 2

NUH-UH Sonic 4 topteir eh has fastest speed and u cant hit him!!!11!!

 

[Juushichi]

NUH-UH Sonic 4 topteir eh has fastest speed and u cant hit him!!!11!!

Espy has won the thread.

/thread
/10threads

 

[etecoon]

I'm starting to believe it's really close between those five as well, like...REALLY close. The only thing MK has above the other four is greater stage flexibility. Other than that...with enough practice, study, and effort; players of those five will match up quite closely as has been the case at high/top levels of play, at least from what I've studied and witnessed.

stage flexibility matters a lot though. sure, snake/falco/diddy do ok ON NEUTRALS, but MK has way gayer CPs than them, that's a large part of why they could never catch up, they just don't adapt to weird environments as well

 

[fkacyan]

stage flexibility matters a lot though. sure, snake/falco/diddy do ok ON NEUTRALS, but MK has way gayer CPs than them, that's a large part of why they could never catch up, they just don't adapt to weird environments as well

They have equally gay CPs that you just don't see abused as often due to the misconception that they're better on neutrals.

 

[etecoon]

diddy and snake have CP's that compare to MK going to RC/brinstar? ok

japes could be argued for falco except like no where has japes legal...

 

[Nefarious B]

Halberd for Snake. Diddy doesn't really have anything like that though

 

[Crow!]

Since the issue has come up, here are the specifics.

Using 6 months of data, ending with March:

M2K accounts for 15.2% of MK's tournament score.
Ally accounts for 27.6% of Snake's tournament score.
ADHD accounts for 45.5% of Diddy Kong's tournament score.

Using the data unaltered, Meta Knight:
Has 1.95 times the score that Snake has.
Has 3.46 times the score that Diddy Kong has.

Removing each and every point M2K scored without removing Ally or ADHD (totally unfair, but we can play M2K's game here), Meta Knight:
Has 1.65 times the score that Snake has.
Has 2.93 times the score that Diddy Kong has.

More realistically, removing M2K, Ally, and ADHD, Meta Knight:
Has 2.21 times the score that Snake has.
Has 5.20 times the score that Diddy Kong has. <-- LOL
(Note: to be fair I also had to subtract points from Meta Knight here because Ally has scored Meta Knight points)


(off topic edit)
Hey, an image taken from my series of Zero Suit Samus hitbubble .pacs has become an avatar? Neat.
Notice how UTilt is a little less than two Squirtles wide.

 

[Raziek]

I never knew statistics could make me feel this way for someone. /meatrides Crow.

 

[swordgard]

I'm physically unable to become a top player. Clumsy fingers, slightly slower than average reaction speed, not very competitive environment. TRIPLE WHAMMY!

Wow.



You guys are so good at johnning. This is not nuclear physics or anything of the like, going pro level is definitely within most people's reach.

 

[Roie]

Next to no one is willing to sacrifice enough to get to the top. This is true with every competitive discipline.

If you play 8 hours/day seriously, against people who are also willing to do so, and have motivation to reach the top and passion for the game you play, its almost impossible not to be a pro, especially considering this is ssbb.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I wonder what would happen to that chart if I just like, stopped going to tourneys. Last time I checked this ranking stuff I had over 3X the points of the next highest MK cuz I go to like every large event in the world

It's going to be even worse after this summer after I **** tons of large events. I'm taking off from a college semester (or two) for months of traveling starting in about 2 months from now or so.

You even made a chart on how MK made 52% of the money but the vast majority of that was just from me getting 1st, and DSF only beat ADHD cuz ADHD tripped and then DSF won last game by 1 damage in the end due to TRIPPING on non-neutrals

Actually it was on smashville and DSF had about a 50% lead then adhd comboed him and got what i think was a 4% lead and he tried to run the clock by going off the stage and up Bing but he ended up dieing 2 seconds before the time ran out.

Also i think crow ***** your logic.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Can't add Atomsk, he plays too many characters. Ksizzle has been inactive yes, I'll remove him. Seibrik had new results in the mean time so I'm not going to remove him yet.

Characters that have beaten a top MK more than twice:
Snake - Ally, Fatal, HRNUT, Razer
Diddy Kong - ADHD
Falco - DEHF, Keitaro, SK92
Ice Climbers - Hylian, lain, Meep

Characters that have beaten a top MK twice:
Marth - Mike Haze
Wario - Blue Rogue, Fiction
Lucario - KSizzle, stauffy

Characters that have beaten a top MK once:
Pikachu
Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Fox
Ness

Characters that haven't won once against a top MK:
King Dedede
Pit
Toon Link
Kirby
R.O.B.
Peach
Luigi
Wolf
Sheik
Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Bowser
Lucas
Ike
Yoshi
Mario
Falcon
Samus
Jigglypuff
Zelda
Link
Ganondorf

Interesting to note how ADHD is the only Diddy to actually beat a top MK for this time period.

i randomly saw this post after name searching, but if people DO agree that i'm a top mk, then felix is another diddy who beat one, he beat me at mlg 2-1, mk vs diddy

 

[theunabletable]

@Crow: Now I have a question. How many more top MK mains are there than Diddy or Snake mains?

 

[Mew2King]

im just going to say it then

99% of you suck and aren't at the level where it would matter or become closer

outliers are some of the only good players

if you took out the 2 or 3 jiggs outliers in melee, she wouldn't be nearly as good would she (actually she sort of would), but then if you count them, you realize she wins top 2 at every large tourney every time

also Tyrant and Ksizl are my apprentices. Esp tyrant. I trained with him for 3 weeks straight during summer of 2009. He improved drastically in that time period.

also diddy beats MK. IF you guys are going to bring up rusty ADHD (since he said he has not been playing much after Pound4) then I'm going to bring up Felix beating like everyone at mlg. It's plenty obvious by now that MK is overrated (except with the current stage lists from MLG he becomes better, but those were never standard before MLG happened)

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

99% of us are also the ones paying you to win tournaments, bub.

 

[Flayl]

i randomly saw this post after name searching, but if people DO agree that i'm a top mk, then felix is another diddy who beat one, he beat me at mlg 2-1, mk vs diddy

I didn't do April yet.

 

[Crow!]

@Crow: Now I have a question. How many more top MK mains are there than Diddy or Snake mains?

I thought you've been hanging around this thread to have seen the previous discussion on this.

The number of players to reach a cutoff X of score is sufficient to conclude that MK is better than Snake. Details: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9626469#post9626469

This means that identifying how many highly skilled players there are of each character must be done individually. Specifically, we can notice the "plateau" effect: once you reach a certain levels of performance, it takes a lot more effort before you can get notably higher again. We can look at the highest skill level plateau of both MK and Snake, and when we look at THAT, it appears that the number of top MKs and top Snakes is actually very close to equal.

This is particularly odd because those MKs of, evidently, equal skill level to those same Snakes, are doing so much better (more than 2x, last time I checked). Were Brawl a hardcore competitive community, we would expect there to be a flurry of MKs coming in. Yet MK remains bizarrely unpopular.


Other characters are harder to analyze because there are so few players that perform well with them; convenient plateaus are few and far between. For Diddy Kong, for example, ADHD is almost the only Diddy Kong of particular note. I made this table a while ago.. I think it was current as of February. It's not clear whether the Diddy Kongs which are "top players" consist of those down to, say, Tibs, or those down to IStudying. Any reasonable way you slice it, though, if you're looking for a character to win with, MK and Snake are much better choices than Diddy.

That's right, Superboom does better at winning tourneys than does Felix.

Also, emphasis on this:

99% of us are also the ones paying you to win tournaments, bub.

 

[rathy Aro]

I don't usually meatride crow... but that was ****. XD

im just going to say it then

99% of you suck and aren't at the level where it would matter or become closer

outliers are some of the only good players

So you're saying that outliers are the only one that don't count, but you shouldn't count? Are you like a super outlier?

and please explain how mk beats diddy. Try not using the word "I" while you do it.

 

[Mew2King]

who cares of how much players proved themselves. MK players travel a lot and EC has constant tourneys

Felix is a really good player, but Washington has very small tourneys and not very often, so he doesn't get a chance to go to them often

that's why that list is stupid

edit - you guys don't get it

the best player of each character should represent the character the most

just because the 2nd best like Zero Suit Samus or whatever is not nearly as good as the best one does not mean ZSS is a bad character and Nick Riddle (the outlier ZSS) shouldn't count. You have to base off the TOP LEVEL of the characters. THAT IS THE CURRENT METAGAME FOR THAT CHARACTER

taking away the outliers is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you should be doing

 

[Tien2500]

who cares of how much players proved themselves. MK players travel a lot and EC has constant tourneys

Felix is a really good player, but Washington has very small tourneys and not very often, so he doesn't get a chance to go to them often

that's why that list is stupid

edit - you guys don't get it

the best player of each character should represent the character the most

just because the 2nd best like Zero Suit Samus or whatever is not nearly as good as the best one does not mean ZSS is a bad character and Nick Riddle (the outlier ZSS) shouldn't count. You have to base off the TOP LEVEL of the characters. THAT IS THE CURRENT METAGAME FOR THAT CHARACTER

taking away the outliers is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you should be doing

When you're doing any sort of statistical analysis you remove outliers. That's how statistics work.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I wonder what would happen to that chart if I just like, stopped going to tourneys. Last time I checked this ranking stuff I had over 3X the points of the next highest MK cuz I go to like every large event in the world

We're just doing exactly what you were going to do.

Face it: all of the people disputing Crow!'s findings are people who don't understand how important sample size is when it comes to research. In science, replicability is key! If you can't replicate results, then who knows what real reasons you had those original results to begin with? Sure, you, M2K, are the current "top of the metagame"... but (obviously) no one ***** with MK quite like you can, and the numbers prove it. For whatever reason, you buck the trend, and when we're looking at dominance, we're looking at things from a macro sense, not a micro sense.

This means that in the little microsphere of M2K, ADHD, and Ally, MK is totally not over dominant.

But...

In the macrosphere of all of Smash, he very well may be. And THAT is what we're concerned with. You have fantastic results with MK, but if the greater population cannot replicate those results, there must be something special to your circumstances that allows you to do so. And so, we take you out of the equation. Same for Ally and ADHD.

Simply put: a sample size of three people is nowhere near enough to isolate out all of the possible variables as to why MK is doing as well as he is in the placings and leave just MK as a character. Same with Diddy and Snake. We need a larger sample size than you three to get anything worthwhile to the rest of us who very well never reach the level you play at, for whatever reason that may be.

Be flattered: it's putting you on a pedestal.

 

[rathy Aro]

I don't think M2K is at the "top of the metagame." lol the metagame is more like ideas and strategies. Clearly you aren't employing all the current strategies if you can't beat diddy. =/

edit: also Crow's original data had the outliers. You were the one that suggested we remove you from the data and so he took the liberty of removing everyone on or above your skill level.

 

[Black Marf]

Statistics stuff

M2K, although you're right that you're more likely to find the top of the metagame by looking at the top players, it ends up being bad statistics. Using such a small sample size, it's far more likely for there to be unaccounted for variables affecting the results. This leads to skewed and misleading results, which leads to incorrect conclusions and bad data.

It's Science!

 

[theunabletable]

In the macrosphere of all of Smash, he very well may be. And THAT is what we're concerned with. You have fantastic results with MK, but if the greater population cannot replicate those results, there must be something special to your circumstances that allows you to do so. And so, we take you out of the equation. Same for Ally and ADHD.

So, basically, you're saying we cater to the people who wouldn't win tournaments with MK gone because they aren't at the level of M2K, Ally, ADHD, DEHF, NickRiddle, TKD, etc? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think M2K just said ZSS is a good character.



EDIT: He is also trying to argue that statistics aren't important because this is a competitive video game, which is arguable but I think most would disagree.

 

[san.]

I think I agree more with what M2K is saying than the whole outlier thing =/