Official Metaknight Discussion

[fkacyan]

Do you mean to suggest that we do this to all MK mains? I would agree that some people do this in regards to Mew2King, but the sheer number of high placing MK mains makes it highly obvious that it isn't just the player, it's the character.

When we have a long list of people like (inb4namesearch):
Dojo
Tyrant
Atomsk
KSizzle
Shadow
etc etc,

I find it very difficult to believe that these people are ALL playing at the top of their field.

When there are this many, they are clearly not outliers.

Nice strawman. All I implied was that it was done to MK mains in addition to other players.

 

[Raziek]

Nice strawman. All I implied was that it was done to MK mains in addition to other players.

I didn't intend to strawman you, but you made your point somewhat vague thanks to the sarcasm. I agree that MK does not find himself exempt from my statement. We're in agreement here. -_-

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nice strawman. All I implied was that it was done to MK mains in addition to other players.

You're a very angry person arent you?

 

[Mew2King]

TKD also had to use MK twice in GF to make sure he won the first set. Just sayin.

dude he lost both those games. He won 3-0 with fox and lost both MK dittos. He would have been better off using all Fox.

also at mlg orlando, felix's diddy 3-0d atomsk in a MM and ***** shadow in a MM

Felix isn't the best Diddy, but he is still able to do that to Diddy-slayers

edit - ohhh GF, I'll have to watch those. I only saw first set of WF.

 

[Orion*]

You're a very angry person arent you?

he is. its actually really hilarious when/if you meet him in person XDDDDD

 

[ksizl4life]

Ksizzle proban too?

definitely not. im kinda neutral now tho.

 

[Atomsk_92]

also at mlg orlando, felix's diddy 3-0d atomsk in a MM

blah blah blah johns blah blah blah

 

[Orion*]

definitely not. im kinda neutral now tho.

do you go on aim anymore? i miss talking to you :[

 

[ksizl4life]

im always on aim orion. maybe ur not on my list for some reason. ill check now.

i have u added as pokeorion but i havent seen u sign on in forever lol

 

[ksizl4life]

sorry double post. stupid 502 bad gateway

 

[fkacyan]

You're a very angry person arent you?

Dude I am the angriest person ever in existence.

 

[ksizl4life]

im always on aim orion. maybe ur not on my list for some reason. ill check now.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Dude I am the angriest person ever in existence.

hahaha sigged.

Oh...and MK is quite good.

 

[Mew2King]

so i just watched. TKD won 1 mk ditto vs tyrant but lost 2

but his fox won 5 and lost 2

that's between wf and gf both

.

edit - tyrant SDed at 5% the MK ditto he lost :/

 

[Laem]

^can u tell where u watched them lol, sure as hell aint on youtube ;(

 

[Judo777]

Omg thio said straw man again!

also how can u say anyone was better off picking another character when he won. There no way of knowing if he would have got ***** those 2 matches with fox. And im tired of people using 1 person examples of others beating MK. The only thing u should base it off of is consistent trends. Matchups dont change significantly at higher levels, people at higher levels are just better players.

 

[fkacyan]

Omg thio said straw man again!

also how can u say anyone was better off picking another character when he won. There no way of knowing if he would have got ***** those 2 matches with fox. And im tired of people using 1 person examples of others beating MK. The only thing u should base it off of is consistent trends. Matchups dont change significantly at higher levels, people at higher levels are just better players.

So Fox isn't significantly better at high level technical play than low level technical play?

Dude, I have no idea why you would even think this is the case. Skill level is a large determinate in matchups.

 

[Throwback]

It's easy to argue that as skill level increases, characters with stronger punishing options become relatively better. And if I wanted to support that argument I could point to TKD and BigLou's recent results...

 

[swordgard]

My problem with TKD is not that hes the only fox doing it, is that hes only done it in 1 region. Many good players do well in 1 region only to get ***** at nationals.

 

[Blacknight99923]

My problem with TKD is not that hes the only fox doing it, is that hes only done it in 1 region. Many good players do well in 1 region only to get ***** at nationals.

I'd have to agree with this, TKD winning is so far an isloated circumstance and shows thats he is a better player not that fox is necassarly a better character

 

[Ripple]

My problem with TKD is not that hes the only fox doing it, is that hes only done it in 1 region. Many good players do well in 1 region only to get ***** at nationals.

zeton does it in midwest. he often trades sets with domo

 

[ShadowLink84]

AWESOME LETS PLACE OUR HOPES ON OUTLIERS TO VALIDATE MU'S EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW THEY ARE OUTLIERS AND WE OFTEN SAY "WELL WHEN HE GETS BETTER HE'LL WIN!
EVERYONE REMEMBER, TIRR LISTS ARE BASED ON PEOPLE NOT THE CHARACTER ABILITIES.

OH AND ALL THEORYCRAFT IS BAD, NO EXCEPTIONS!


*walks away*

 

[Orion*]

AWESOME LETS PLACE OUR HOPES ON OUTLIERS TO VALIDATE MU'S EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW THEY ARE OUTLIERS AND WE OFTEN SAY "WELL WHEN HE GETS BETTER HE'LL WIN!
EVERYONE REMEMBER, TIRR LISTS ARE BASED ON PEOPLE NOT THE CHARACTER ABILITIES.

OH AND ALL THEORYCRAFT IS BAD, NO EXCEPTIONS!


*walks away*

youre definitely one of those guys that walks around like he has a **** up his ***.

no homo.

 

[fkacyan]

AWESOME LETS PLACE OUR HOPES ON OUTLIERS TO VALIDATE MU'S EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW THEY ARE OUTLIERS AND WE OFTEN SAY "WELL WHEN HE GETS BETTER HE'LL WIN!
EVERYONE REMEMBER, TIRR LISTS ARE BASED ON PEOPLE NOT THE CHARACTER ABILITIES.

OH AND ALL THEORYCRAFT IS BAD, NO EXCEPTIONS!


*walks away*

And you said I was an angry person

 

[OverLade]

youre definitely one of those guys that walks around like he has a **** up his ***.

possible homo

True intentions are revealed.

 

[Raziek]

We're all angry in here. I blame MK.

 

[ShadowLink84]

And you said I was an angry person

I never did get to see your response to that sadly.

Were...

U MAD?


btw

So Fox isn't significantly better at high level technical play than low level technical play?

Dude, I have no idea why you would even think this is the case. Skill level is a large determinate in matchups.

presume it can be done within human reason.
Fox still sucks.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Skill does matter in matchups. At a high level a move with short recovery is much more likely to be punished than at a lower level. MKs get away with a lot more stuff against average Snakes, than they could ever hope to against Ally.

 

[fkacyan]

I never did get to see your response to that sadly.

Were...

U MAD?


btw

presume it can be done within human reason.
Fox still sucks.

I said I was the angriest person in existence ever. ALSO

I was speaking of melee fox

 

[swordgard]

I said I was the angriest person in existence ever. ALSO

I was speaking of melee fox

Which would get wrecked in a brawl game if he kept melee physics XD

 

[OverLade]

Skill does matter in matchups. At a high level a move with short recovery is much more likely to be punished than at a lower level. MKs get away with a lot more stuff against average Snakes, than they could ever hope to against Ally.

Yeah even Snakes like me, Razer, HRnut, and Candy aren't able to punish all the stuff that Ally does (namesearch party?). That's why you can't base matchups on what's possible you have to do it on whats practical at the regular level. If you based matchups off the highest level (based on players instead of options) then MK would have 70-30's against a vast majority of the cast.

 

[complexity1234]

Yeah even Snakes like me, Razer, HRnut, and Candy aren't able to punish all the stuff that Ally does (namesearch party?). That's why you can't base matchups on what's possible you have to do it on whats practical at the regular level. If you based matchups off the highest level (based on players instead of options) then MK would have 70-30's against a vast majority of the cast.

k thats most definitely faulty logic. Its always based off of the highest level because it shows what the character is capable of.

If every single snake sucked, but then there was "alley", we wouldn't take the average or some shiz, u just look at the highest. Every other snake wouldnt matter. You have right in front of you what snake can do. Practice more.

Same during the early melee days when there was just ken. He proved marth what marth could do and it was up to other players to catch up.

 

[OverLade]

k thats most definitely faulty logic. Its always based off of the highest level because it shows what the character is capable of.

If every single snake sucked, but then there was "alley", we wouldn't take the average or some shiz, u just look at the highest. Every other snake wouldnt matter. You have right in front of you what snake can do. Practice more.

Same during the early melee days when there was just ken. He proved marth what marth could do and it was up to other players to catch up.

You're not considering that all the other snakes/Diddy's HAVEN'T been able to catch up. A year and a half later nothing has changed. Alleh is the only Snake consistently beating top MKs, and he's clearly just a lot better than they are. Snake players "around their level" only occasionally manage to win.

The problem people make when evalutating matchups is assume that the best players of each character are of equal skill and that's wrong.

 

[complexity1234]

so? He started wayyyyy ahead of everyone else and is keeping the lead. Actually id say snakes are catching up. Look at alley a year and a half ago/compared to most good snakes today. Similar no? Snake/Diddy are alot harder to master than MK. This stuff takes time.

Also mM2k/Mengo/hungarybox became more known like 4-6 yrs after melee came out. Same for alot of melee players.

We may not see more amazing brawl players until later on.

 

[OverLade]

so? He started wayyyyy ahead of everyone else and is keeping the lead. Actually id say snakes are catching up. Look at alley a year and a half ago/compared to most good snakes today. Similar no? Snake/Diddy are alot harder to master than MK. This stuff takes time.

Also mM2k/Mengo/hungarybox became more known like 4-6 yrs after melee came out. Same for alot of melee players.

We may not see more amazing brawl players until later on.

I don't believe in the "equality of players" in this game. I think people are born with a certain amount of natural talent and while they can expand on it, everyone has limited potential. And everyone's potential isn't the same.

Melee is Tech skill/Smarts/Knowledge

Brawl is just smarts/knowledge. The extent to which practice can make you better is limited if you don't have the mind for it.

 

[Mew2King]

so? He started wayyyyy ahead of everyone else and is keeping the lead. Actually id say snakes are catching up. Look at alley a year and a half ago/compared to most good snakes today. Similar no? Snake/Diddy are alot harder to master than MK. This stuff takes time.

Also mM2k/Mengo/hungarybox became more known like 4-6 yrs after melee came out. Same for alot of melee players.

We may not see more amazing brawl players until later on.

son have you ever heard of the SSBM Statistics List that I made? I was on Smash World Forums during the dying days when this site was only about Smash 64 and called Smash World Forums. I made an account like 2 years later or so in 2002. I didn't know there were tournaments worthwhile to go to until years after I started. A bad move on my part.

Also there is no Snake right now near Ally's level. This does not mean the character is bad, underrated, overrated, etc etc., it just means there is no Snake near Ally's level right now. I destroy other Snakes badly. It's like if Mango was the only Jiggs around before Hbox and let's even take Darc out of the picture. Jiggs would still be really good but there would also be no Jiggs near Mango's level.

I personally think Snake is 3rd best character, but the top 3 (diddy/mk/snake) or even top 5 or so in the game (falco/ICs) are all VERY very close imo.

 

[Crow!]

Actually id say snakes are catching up.

Factually incorrect. Meta Knight's tournament performance has been undeniably improving, while Snake has been fairly level.

Note: this chart is soon to be outdated: shortly into the coming month, some west cost tournaments from January 2010 to the present that had been missed previously will be added in, and of course April (featuring MLG: Orlando) will be included.

 

[Ripple]

why not just assume you are playing against yourself? there's equality of players

 

[Mew2King]

I wonder what would happen to that chart if I just like, stopped going to tourneys. Last time I checked this ranking stuff I had over 3X the points of the next highest MK cuz I go to like every large event in the world

It's going to be even worse after this summer after I **** tons of large events. I'm taking off from a college semester (or two) for months of traveling starting in about 2 months from now or so.

You even made a chart on how MK made 52% of the money but the vast majority of that was just from me getting 1st, and DSF only beat ADHD cuz ADHD tripped and then DSF won last game by 1 damage in the end due to TRIPPING on non-neutrals

 

[complexity1234]

son have you ever heard of the SSBM Statistics List that I made? I was on Smash World Forums during the dying days when this site was only about Smash 64 and called Smash World Forums. I made an account like 2 years later or so in 2002. I didn't know there were tournaments worthwhile to go to until years after I started. A bad move on my part.

I didnt say when u started smash, just meant when u became really good. Thats all. I was trying to say alot of good players came about yearrsss later.