Official Metaknight Discussion

[Flayl]

Now that the search function is back up, I can update this.

How low shall we set the bar?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think you should add atomsk to the list and remove ksizzle (since he doesn't play as much anymore) and seibrik.

You could also add ally's mk from when he was using him strictly.

as for lowing the bar isn't it already at 2 wins to make the list? everybody can just look for them self if one person beat them once.

 

[Flayl]

Top MKs: M2K, Tyrant, Dojo, Shadow, Anti, DSF, Judge, Seibrik, RedHalberd, Havok


From October 1st to March 31st:

Anti
- 3rd out of 39 at Gauntlet 10-03-09, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 3rd out of 53 at DAPHNE I, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 4th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Meep (IC)
- 1st out of 34 at Bum Presents: The Gamers, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 74 at PolyBrawl 11.28, can't find any brackets - outplaced by Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
----------------------------------------------------

Dojo
- 1st out of 71 at HOBO 19, can't find any brackets
- 1st out of 71 at Phase 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 39 at Phase 3, can't find any brackets
- 4th out of 50 at HOBO 21, lost to Hylian (IC/G&W) and Razer (Snake)
- 2nd out of 46 at Final Smash 8, lost to Razer (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 48 at Phase 5, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 61 at Phase 6, lost to Razer (Snake) twice
- 2nd out of 46 at NO KOAST v3, lost to Affinity (MK) and Ally (Snake)
- 1st out of 32 at Phase 7, 0 sets lost
----------------------------------------------------

DSF
- 1st out of 43 at CGC XII, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 49 at CGC @ SFSU 13, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 120 at R3, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)
- 1st out of 109 (split with Tyrant) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 3rd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)
- 1st out of 61 at World 2-4 Southern California, can't find any brackets
- 5th out of 35 at DAO'S Farewell Tourney, lost to stauffy (Lucario) and Mike Haze (Marth)
- 2nd out of 69 at 2GG Presents: Larry's Birthday Blowout, lost to DEHF (Falco) twice
----------------------------------------------------

Havok - didn't look for results below 7th, tell me if you know
- 4th out of 120 at R3, lost to DEHF (Falco) and DSF (MK)
- 7th out of 190 at *POUND* 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Ally (Snake)
- 5th out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to SK92 (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)
- 3rd out of 61 at World 2-4 Southern California, can't find any brackets - outplaced by DSF (MK) and Tyrant (MK)
- 1st out of 35 at DAO'S Farewell Tourney, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 19 at San Diego 1-A Fresh Start, can't find any brackets - outplaced by TKD (Fox) and Tyrant (MK)
- 7th out of 69 at 2GG Presents: Larry's Birthday Blowout, lost to RichBrown (Olimar) and Fiction (Wario)
----------------------------------------------------

Judge
- 2nd out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl. 2, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 31 at LoLiS 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 30 at Kuntasm, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 1st out of 42 at LoLiS 5, lost to Anther (Pikachu) once
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Shadow (MK) and Ksizzle (Lucario)
- 3rd out of 27 at Michigan Ball Z, forfeit (don't know when or why)
- 1st out of 29 at Test Your Might VIII, lost to Blue Rogue (Wario) once
- 3rd out of 66 at Clash of Fighters: Angry Shinobi Circus, lost to Ally (Snake)* and lain (IC)
- 1st out of 27 at Best of Michigan 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 44 (split with Mew2King and Shugo) at MSC #5 M.A.S. Kami No Bachi, 0 sets lost
----------------------------------------------------

Mew2King
- 1st out of 36 at LoLiS 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl2, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 39 at lain's Lollapalooza, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 31 at LoLiS 4, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 30 at Kuntasm, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 89 at Winterfest, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 29 at Wait, AGAIN?!, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 30 at Delta Upsilon II, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 53 at OC #2: M2k's Monthly Donation Fund, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 41 at MSC4: Legacy of Legends in Smash EXtended, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 55 at Tourneyplay 4, lost to DEHF (Falco) once
- 3rd out of 121 at Viridian City #7, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Ally (Snake)
- 1st out of 45 at Brawl OC #6: Nope's Monthly "Makin' Dat Money Like M2K", 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 44 (split with Judge and Shugo) at MSC #5 M.A.S. Kami No Bachi, 0 sets lost
----------------------------------------------------

RedHalberd - Results with mostly Snake weren't posted
- 1st out of 41 at Gigabits - A Fall Brawl, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 38 at HOBO 23, lost to Razer (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 27 at I.A.A.T.M.! (It's All About the Money!), can't find any brackets
----------------------------------------------------

Seibrik
- 2nd out of 41 at Gigabits - A Fall Brawl, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK)
- 2nd out of 24 at WATO 8.5, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK/Snake)
- 2nd out of 89 at Winterfest 2009, can't find any brackets - lost to Mew2King (MK)
- 1st out of 28 (split with CO18) at WATO 9, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 39 at FIU Brawl Tourney 1/23, lost to Nick Riddle (ZSS) twice
- 3rd out of 40 at Next Level Lan - Inaugural Brawl, can't find any brackets - outplaced by HRNUT (Snake) and Shaky (Ness)
- 1st out of 25 at WATO 9.5, can't find any brackets
----------------------------------------------------

Shadow
- 4th out of 60 at Crank That Kosha Boy!, lost to Meep (IC) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 2nd out of 45 at KTAR, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 2nd out of 25 at Powerplay Gaming Tournament, lost to Atomsk (???) and Ally (Snake)
- 3rd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 3rd out of 29 at Paradigm Presents: WAIT, AGAIN?!, can't find any brackets - outplaced by ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Ally (Snake)
- 1st out of 33 (split with DM Brandon) at DNA Gaming USA #2, lost to DM Brandon (MK)?
- 1st out of 34 at Syracuse Smash 2, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 40 at DNA Gaming USA #3, lost to Fatal (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 16 at Fusion 0.5, 0 sets lost
- 5th out of 121 at Viridian City #7, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and DEHF (Falco)
- 1st out of 97 (split with Atomsk) at PolyBrawl 4, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 19 at Fusion 1, lost to Keitaro (Falco) once
- 4th out of 65 at KTAR 2, lost to Ally (Snake) and Atomsk (MK)
- 3rd out of 50 at BUM Presents: Gamer's Tourney 3/27, can't find any brackets - outplaced by Atomsk (MK/Dedede) and ADHD (Diddy)
----------------------------------------------------

Tyrant
- 3rd out of 43 at CGC XII, lost to DSF (MK) and Mike Haze (Marth)
- 5th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) and Meep (IC)
- 2nd out of 120 at R3, lost to DEHF (Falco) twice
- 1st out of 18 at The BR Act: Program 1, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 109 (split with DSF) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) twice
- 2nd out of 61 at World 2-4 Southern California, can't find any brackets - outplaced by DSF (MK)
- 2nd out of 35 at DAO'S Farewell Tourney, lost to Havok (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 19 at San Diego 1-A Fresh Start, can't find any brackets - outplaced by TKD (Fox)
- 3rd out of 69 at 2GG Presents: Larry's Birthday Blowout, lost to DSF (MK) twice
----------------------------------------------------




*Judge lost against Ally's CF with Wario, so I can't count CF as the character his MK lost to.

Note: Florida is ****ing terrible at posting results.

 

[Flayl]

I think you should add atomsk to the list and remove ksizzle (since he doesn't play as much anymore) and seibrik.

You could also add ally's mk from when he was using him strictly.

as for lowing the bar isn't it already at 2 wins to make the list? everybody can just look for them self if one person beat them once.

Can't add Atomsk, he plays too many characters. Ksizzle has been inactive yes, I'll remove him. Seibrik had new results in the mean time so I'm not going to remove him yet.

Characters that have beaten a top MK more than twice:
Snake - Ally, Fatal, HRNUT, Razer
Diddy Kong - ADHD
Falco - DEHF, Keitaro, SK92
Ice Climbers - Hylian, lain, Meep

Characters that have beaten a top MK twice:
Marth - Mike Haze
Wario - Blue Rogue, Fiction
Lucario - KSizzle, stauffy

Characters that have beaten a top MK once:
Pikachu
Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Fox
Ness

Characters that haven't won once against a top MK:
King Dedede
Pit
Toon Link
Kirby
R.O.B.
Peach
Luigi
Wolf
Sheik
Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Bowser
Lucas
Ike
Yoshi
Mario
Falcon
Samus
Jigglypuff
Zelda
Link
Ganondorf

Interesting to note how ADHD is the only Diddy to actually beat a top MK for this time period.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jesus Christ, this is getting ridiculous. Flayl, those stats make my brain hurt.

 

[Flayl]

With April ZSS, Pikachu, Luigi and Fox should be getting a bump up, IIRC.

 

[ADHD]

Jesus Christ, this is getting ridiculous. Flayl, those stats make my brain hurt.

Your brain is incapable of feeling pain directly.

 

[CO18]

Tearbear should be on the list getting top 3 most wcs, won 1, beat dehf/chudat saturday etc

 

[fkacyan]

Cool, top players occasionally beat eachother or not.

and?

 

[Ripple]

Cool, top players occasionally beat eachother or not.

and?

I think the point was that top MK players don't lose except to other MK mains and ally

 

[etecoon]

I think the point was that top MK players don't lose except to othere MK mains and ally

and fatal, HRNut, razer, ADHD, DEHF, keitaro, SK92, hylian, lain, and meep

but I guess reading more than an eight of a post like that is a little too challenging for a pro-ban

 

[salaboB]

but I guess reading more than an eight of a post like that is a little too challenging for a pro-ban

Those against a ban never, ever do that either.

 

[Flayl]

Cool, top players occasionally beat eachother or not.

and?

Snake has much more of a chance of being an even matchup for MK than Diddy. Falco is iffy, as the non-DEHF Falcos' may or may not ever beat a top MK again. All the Ice Climbers have losing track records against top MKs, and they're on the top of the list. There is a strong correlation to the hypothesis that at least 3 of these matchups are more disadvantaged than people say they are. Really the biggest surprise is that there are ZERO Diddy's beyond ADHD taking a single set from a top MK.

C018: I'll add Tearbear in the April update.

 

[etecoon]

of course not, we are perfect and never skim read or leave out inconvenient facts.


yep, both sides do it, that's a lot of why this thread is ****ing useless. both sides have a "win the argument at all costs even lying constantly" mentality that makes actual discourse impossible, that's why I mostly only come here to insult people now.

 

[Ripple]

13/92 all ADHD

20/92 are snake and 15 of them are ally

5/92 are ICs

13/92 are falco 11 are DEHF

so excuse me

top MK players don't lose to anyone other than ally, adhd, or DEHF

 

[etecoon]

slight improvement over "top MK's never lose except to ally" but you're still stretching the truth pretty far, I guess it can't be helped, no one really made consistently intelligent posts in this topic except overswarm and he's long abandoned this.

 

[Ripple]

slight improvement over "top MK's never lose except to ally" but you're still stretching the truth pretty far, I guess it can't be helped, no one really made consistently intelligent posts in this topic except overswarm and he's long abandoned this.

I don't see how I'm stretching the truth when I just posted facts that flayl posted not too long ago.

if you say I am then flayl is also

 

[adumbrodeus]

slight improvement over "top MK's never lose except to ally" but you're still stretching the truth pretty far, I guess it can't be helped, no one really made consistently intelligent posts in this topic except overswarm and he's long abandoned this.

Ouch, you're mean.


I'm also offended for Crow.

 

[ADHD]

13/92 all ADHD

Aww, that's cute. I've done something after all!

 

[fkacyan]

Snake has much more of a chance of being an even matchup for MK than Diddy. Falco is iffy, as the non-DEHF Falcos' may or may not ever beat a top MK again. All the Ice Climbers have losing track records against top MKs, and they're on the top of the list. There is a strong correlation to the hypothesis that at least 3 of these matchups are more disadvantaged than people say they are. Really the biggest surprise is that there are ZERO Diddy's beyond ADHD taking a single set from a top MK.

C018: I'll add Tearbear in the April update.

Weak correlation just using your data, actually, seeing as there zero variation in character usage by specific players. I could make the argument that there is a strong correlation for player matchups going a certain way here.

:3

 

[etecoon]

Ouch, you're mean.


I'm also offended for Crow.

I don't mean to say that everyone else lacks intelligence, just that OS was the only one that could be persuasive without contradicting himself or fabricating evidence constantly. I don't really see you as belonging to either side that strongly(I THINK you were anti ban?) so I didn't really consider you in that statement

crow is awesome, that power point was amazing, I just wouldn't say that he consistently posts in here. a few people like that are smart and are good influences on this discussion but get drowned out by the voices of "MK NEVER LOSES EXCEPT TO ALLY!" and "MK CAN'T WIN IN ATLANTIC NORTH BECAUSE OF DIDDY!"

 

[Ripple]

a few people like that are smart and are good influences on this discussion but get drowned out by the voices of "MK NEVER LOSES EXCEPT TO ALLY!" and "MK CAN'T WIN IN ATLANTIC NORTH BECAUSE OF DIDDY!"

in addition to 2 other players in the entire US, the first statement is true.

the second statement is because of the player, not the character.

take away ally DEHF and ADHD since they are clearly outliers and you are supposed to as any good statistician would, you get a clear MK dominance. even if you take away M2K

 

[iceman48]

in addition to 2 other players in the entire US, the first statement is true.

the second statement is because of the player, not the character.

take away ally DEHF and ADHD since they are clearly outliers and you are supposed to as any good statistician would, you get a clear MK dominance. even if you take away M2K

That first statement isn't exactly true. I'm not even being nit-picky here. 39 of the 92 wins were by those three people. That's not even half (stating the obvious, I know, but it adds effect). They have the best chance out of the people listed, there's no arguing that, but 53 wins were by other people.

 

[Judo777]

Ok so i have a quick question if the game had a significantly larger character diversity by a certain action would you guys deem that action healthy for the meta game?

 

[Raziek]

Ok so i have a quick question if the game had a significantly larger character diversity by a certain action would you guys deem that action healthy for the meta game?

Unfortunately this clearly becomes subjective. Most pro-banners would agree, but many on anti-ban are completely fine with having 3 (In reality, 1) viable character (s).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

As I had said, I used Ankoku's scoring. First place is worth 10 points, second worth 7, third and fourth worth 4, and the rest out to eighth are worth 1. Given MLG's payout scheme, this is too lenient for Ally and ESAM, hence MK's payout percent being slightly higher.

I guess? But remember that we're going from the assumption that Ally, M2K, DEHF, and ADHD are statistical outliers, correct? How does this affect his placing? I don't even know where to look for the results, lol.

Excellent, another top pro dropping his main for Metaknight.
Makes sense I suppose, why play a flawed character when there's MK with no bad MUs or stages and goes even with MK. Poifect. Play to win.

Pretty much. In a "play-to-win" metagame, the "perfect" player mains MK and secondaries DDD/Oli/whoever ****s snake up hardest. Or doesn't even bother.

 

[Throwback]

...it is frustrating realizing that if MK was clear auto win against every character in the game, that there's a GOOD chance people would STILL not pick him up and just say "Play on".

I would argue that that situation above exists now, although MK is obvously not an 'auto-win'. He is, however, clearly any player's best chance of winning a tournament, yet the majority of people still choose to 'play on' with their inferior characters.

Do you think everyone should just main MK since he's the best? I guess it would solve the ban/don't ban issue pretty quickly.

 

[TP]

Can someone please link me to Crow's power point?

 

[ThatsGameBoyz]

I can see both sides of this argument being valid. The prospect of entirely banning a character is a big one.

My argument for banning goes something like this:

Suppose you have a complicated game of rock paper scissors where, instead of paper beating rock 100% of the time, this occurred with probability 3/4. So every time you play a match with someone else. You are expected to win this game 50% of the time, not taking skill into account.
Suppose you add in Spock. Spock has a 50% chance to win against himself, and a 60% chance to win against everybody else. it is clear that when I play Spock against a field of rock paper and scissors I'll win 60% of the time.

Does this mean, however, that Spock will win all the time? No, but does it mean that Spock is more likely to win than any other strategy in the game? Most certainly.

If metaknight were to be banned, it would take on a more rock paper scissorsesque form, and I would predict that many different characters would start to arise at the tops of tournaments.

Does this mean that metaknight is "broken?" not really, he just has been shown to have an above 50% chance against every other character.

I know that in card games when there is unbalance and a particular archetype is winning way too much or a card is overplayed, it is banned in order to sustain a healthy metagame. Are there any examples of that in video games?

I don't know if something like this has been mentioned before, but I thought it was worth my time to see if this was good persuasion for banning or whether it's just silliness.

 

[Jem.]

Didn't TKD just beat Tyrant 3-0 in Winners Finals in Fox vs MK (the two games tyrant won was Mk dittos).New characters are rising to the challenge everyday. Oh and TKD beat him in grand finals too. Just sayin.

 

[Mota]

I can see both sides of this argument being valid. The prospect of entirely banning a character is a big one.

My argument for banning goes something like this:

Suppose you have a complicated game of rock paper scissors where, instead of paper beating rock 100% of the time, this occurred with probability 3/4. So every time you play a match with someone else. You are expected to win this game 50% of the time, not taking skill into account.
Suppose you add in Spock. Spock has a 50% chance to win against himself, and a 60% chance to win against everybody else. it is clear that when I play Spock against a field of rock paper and scissors I'll win 60% of the time.

Does this mean, however, that Spock will win all the time? No, but does it mean that Spock is more likely to win than any other strategy in the game? Most certainly.

If metaknight were to be banned, it would take on a more rock paper scissorsesque form, and I would predict that many different characters would start to arise at the tops of tournaments.

Does this mean that metaknight is "broken?" not really, he just has been shown to have an above 50% chance against every other character.

I know that in card games when there is unbalance and a particular archetype is winning way too much or a card is overplayed, it is banned in order to sustain a healthy metagame. Are there any examples of that in video games?

I don't know if something like this has been mentioned before, but I thought it was worth my time to see if this was good persuasion for banning or whether it's just silliness.

I like your first post.
Other examples are of course Akuma in Street Fighter, & I've heard of pokemon bans in Competitve Pokemon.

I agree, MK isn't broken to be banned, but he's broken enough to make the game his b**ch. He's the best choice, yet people still choose to play as rock/paper/scissors instead of the superior spock.

I like Spock.

 

[Flayl]

edit: nevermind.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Can someone please link me to Crow's power point?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9870164&postcount=9756

Have it in my bookmarks as "Crow ****".

edit: nevermind.

Aww. I missed this.

 

[swordgard]

Didn't TKD just beat Tyrant 3-0 in Winners Finals in Fox vs MK (the two games tyrant won was Mk dittos).New characters are rising to the challenge everyday. Oh and TKD beat him in grand finals too. Just sayin.

Didn't TKD not prove himself anywhere but in cali?

Just sayin.


Also more characters fall to the challenge everyday, ADHD for example, Ally re-starting to lose to M2k. Does WC know the matchup also vs fox? Who knows, 1 person placing in 1 single region=/=no ban.

 

[OverLade]

Didn't TKD just beat Tyrant 3-0 in Winners Finals in Fox vs MK (the two games tyrant won was Mk dittos).New characters are rising to the challenge everyday. Oh and TKD beat him in grand finals too. Just sayin.

TKD also had to use MK twice in GF to make sure he won the first set. Just sayin.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Something just hit me-Swordgard switched to pro-ban? Wow...

 

[fkacyan]

I like your first post.
Other examples are of course Akuma in Street Fighter, & I've heard of pokemon bans in Competitve Pokemon.

I agree, MK isn't broken to be banned, but he's broken enough to make the game his b**ch. He's the best choice, yet people still choose to play as rock/paper/scissors instead of the superior spock.

I like Spock.

Akuma isn't comparable. He literally was unbeatable if you played properly, and playing properly wasn't even difficult.

 

[Flayl]

BPC: If his stance is anything like mine he's pro-evidence.

 

[Judo777]

Akuma isn't comparable. He literally was unbeatable if you played properly, and playing properly wasn't even difficult.

Nah Otochun (chunli) beat a good Akuma at X mania 4 or 3 i dont remember so it can be done.

 

[Gnes]

Something just hit me-Swordgard switched to pro-ban? Wow...

I think he was more correcting jem's logic. I want to see tkd go to mlg and meet esam/anther...that would be fun