Official Metaknight Discussion

[fkacyan]

Yes. However, if I understand it, MLG uses further rounds and matches to determine 5th, 7th, and 10th place.

http://www.mlgpro.com/pro-circuit/2010/

Thus, it is possible to determine 5th place accurately. That is, as accurately as tournament results can determine any placing. Thus, who got 5th is as accurate as who got 6th.

I wasn't contesting that. I was just correcting your assumption that the placements were arbitrary.

 

[Black Marf]

I wasn't contesting that. I was just correcting your assumption that the placements were arbitrary.

Accepted. It just seemed arbitrary to place importance on something that matters for model B when we're using model A.

In either case, talking about MK trend in the Top 5 as significant is still misleading.

 

[Raziek]

It's still an outlier, and outliers have to be handled directly in order for the model to be taken seriously.

This sentence looks a lot like what pro-ban has been saying about Ally and ADHD beating out MK's.

Imagine that.

 

[Judo777]

This sentence looks a lot like what pro-ban has been saying about Ally and ADHD beating out MK's.

Imagine that.

Ooooh i see whatcha did thar!

 

[theunabletable]

One could argue then that because we consider Orlando to have been filled with upsets, that this healthy balance is not the norm, correct?

The fact that these upsets actually do happen in practical play, and can happen a lot, is honestly enough for me to think that the meta game is currently healthy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't like the "Top Players Placing" argument because you can take it too far or just use it as a blanket statement for any tournament ever in the existence of man.

Let's assume that MK, or any one single character was the only viable choice in Brawl. Every person played as this character, no one sucked it up and played low tier, etc. The entire tournament was basically dittos.

You could argue that the tournament simply showed very accurately who is better than who, since every matchup is 50:50. It's not dominance, the results are just the best ever fathomable for determining who is truly better than who.

In exchange you get a bland meta game with less depth than other games that have multiple characters to choose from.

In this case it sounds like one of choice, which isn't bad per say, the question is really proving that the dominance is one of choice or because that character is a huge buffer than playing anyone else is a huge handicap.

 

[Mota]

Metagame be snackin on too many MKs. Diet time imo

 

[DMG]

In exchange you get a bland meta game with less depth than other games that have multiple characters to choose from.

In this case it sounds like one of choice, which isn't bad per say, the question is really proving that the dominance is one of choice or because that character is a huge buffer than playing anyone else is a huge handicap.

I think the problem (kinda) is that Smash will always be a community of choice regardless of the character meeting the second criteria. I find MANY more low and mid and even high tier mains or secondaries in the Smash community compared to Street, MVC2, TvC, hell Tekken and even KOF sometimes. I think proving #2 is extremely hard in that our community basically for good or bad does choose to handicap itself quite a bit when it comes to character choices, at least more than other communities do IMO. I think if we came across a broken character, our community would not only forgo the option to play as it, but that we would deem the character as acceptable since the masses do not opt to play as it. Which is somewhat understandable, but it is frustrating realizing that if MK was clear auto win against every character in the game, that there's a GOOD chance people would STILL not pick him up and just say "Play on".

 

[swordgard]

This sentence looks a lot like what pro-ban has been saying about Ally and ADHD beating out MK's.

Imagine that.

Except ADHD has lost to 5 non m2k MKs lately iirc. DSF, Ally, Shadow, Atomsk, Anti. But apparently he had "a bad day" on each of these days.

 

[Justblaze647]

Haha yeah, What else do you call it when an 'outlier' loses?

 

[Raziek]

Except ADHD has lost to 5 non m2k MKs lately iirc. DSF, Ally, Shadow, Atomsk, Anti. But apparently he had "a bad day" on each of these days.

I'm moreso referring to the past, when that was the big anti-ban argument. "Mk isn't winning nationals", which we attributed largely to outliers like Ally and ADHD. In fact, now that ADHD ISN'T winning, it just makes things worse for the anti-ban case.

The fact that these upsets actually do happen in practical play, and can happen a lot, is honestly enough for me to think that the meta game is currently healthy.

If they happen frequently, they aren't upsets. xD

Also, they don't happen very frequently. I'd argue that the large number of upsets at MLG Orlando can be attributed to seeding and the ruleset, but we need more data before we can substantiate these claims.

 

[<π]

how many top MKs went to MLG orlando? how many placed top 16?

Just curious.

 

[DMG]

DSF, Tyrant, Shadow, M2K, Seibrik, Redhalberd, maybe 2-3 more? Trying to think of who else. Ksizzle? Atomsk/Lee Martin? IDK who else, I feel like I am still missing some, DMbrandom if you count him (assuming he played), Havok? Kel if you count him? Tearbear if you count him?. As for how many got top 16, M2K Tyrant DSF Atomsk? IDK who else, I wish there was 1 big complete bracket that let you see everything on 1 page that would make it easier.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Top Mks is also more difficult to judge once you get past Tyrant/M2K/Maybe shadow, because there are sooooo many with good results, unlike all the other top characters. MK has like 20+ reps, whereas others have maybe 5-6.

 

[OverLade]

Top Mks is also more difficult to judge once you get past Tyrant/M2K/Maybe shadow, because there are sooooo many with good results, unlike all the other top characters. MK has like 20+ reps, whereas others have maybe 5-6.

LOL I wonder why?

It's probably just a coincidence that every region is dominated by at least one top MK...OR MABYE ITS NOT...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

LOL I wonder why?

It's probably just a coincidence that every region is dominated by at least one top MK...OR MABYE ITS NOT...

The two strongest regions are dominated by a Falco and a Diddy Kong (or a Snake if you count that).

LOL I wonder why?

 

[etecoon]

atlantic north is dominated by a diddy kong? maybe like 3 months ago lol

 

[Judo777]

The two strongest regions are dominated by a Falco and a Diddy Kong (or a Snake if you count that).

LOL I wonder why?

Whos the falco?

 

[DMG]

DEHF. Although you could make the case that WC is up for grabs, seeing how well Tyrant/DSF/others also did at MLG.

 

[fkacyan]

atlantic north is dominated by a diddy kong? maybe like 3 months ago lol

AN is dominated by M2K/ADHD/Ally (Why is he always here?!)

 

[adumbrodeus]

The two strongest regions are dominated by a Falco and a Diddy Kong (or a Snake if you count that).

LOL I wonder why?

A diddy dominates AN?


Ehhh, ADHD's good, but there are people who consistently beat him (ex. Shadow), so he doesn't dominate overall.

 

[GwJ]

Why do you need MK killers to kill MK? He's not broken, remember?
Is the stage list broken for MK, or is MK broken for the stage list?
Will the rest of MLG not have the same stage list?
Does 76 plus 76 not equal 142?
lol?

It's actually 152

 

[napZzz]

there should be a temporary period of time where mk is banned and people show the tournament results and ****. Then when its over people can voice an opinion and really see how it would work from both sides.

 

[iRJi]

A diddy dominates AN?


Ehhh, ADHD's good, but there are people who consistently beat him (ex. Shadow), so he doesn't dominate overall.

Don't be foolish on that statement. Overall ADHD's tournament results pretty much outplaces every one else by a decent margin. Despite Shadow can beat him, ADHD still takes the tournament way more often. The numbers between the 2 are not really comparable, imo.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Don't be foolish on that statement. Overall ADHD's tournament results pretty much outplaces every one else by a decent margin. Despite Shadow can beat him, ADHD still takes the tournament way more often. The numbers between the 2 are not really comparable, imo.

Maybe I wasn't being quite clear enough, yes he has the best record, I'm merely pointing out that "dominates" is a little much (I certainly wasn't suggesting that Shadow dominates, he's merely one of the factors that prevents ADHD from dominating).


Just saying, AN is too competative a region for me to say any one player dominates right now.

 

[solecalibur]

DSF, Tyrant, Shadow, M2K, Seibrik, Redhalberd, maybe 2-3 more? Trying to think of who else. Ksizzle? Atomsk/Lee Martin? IDK who else, I feel like I am still missing some, DMbrandom if you count him (assuming he played), Havok? Kel if you count him? Tearbear if you count him?. As for how many got top 16, M2K Tyrant DSF Atomsk? IDK who else, I wish there was 1 big complete bracket that let you see everything on 1 page that would make it easier.

Poor seeding will knock a lot of top MKs out pretty early also like how you mentioned kel and he is considered a good MK and he was against DEHF first round with little to no exp of falcos in the midwest (to my knowledge)

 

[etecoon]

Just saying, AN is too competative a region for me to say any one player dominates right now.

this. ADHD has lost to anti, shadow, and atomsk recently, even if he is the winningest player overall that is not domination

(hey guess what those three players have in common aside from being from atlantic north!?)



and no one would have expected kel to beat DEHF even if he did have experience with falco...

 

[DMG]

Actually without a LGL I think he had a solid chance. He seems like someone who has no problem planking for 5-8 minutes.

 

[clowsui]

kel has no exp with falco

i would be the most immediate falco in his area but:

1. i suck
2. even if i could get better by playing him i can't play him often, high school + asian johns

actually what DMG said is correct

 

[etecoon]

planking only comes into play assuming that MK gets the lead, if you watch most of the games where DEHF beats tyrant he typically jumps out in front early on and never falls behind, afterall MK doesn't need the ledge to stall pretty effectively anyway

 

[Judo777]

You can stall without the lead. Just stall at the beginning and wait til the last few seconds then bum rush him and hope for the best its a great tactic especially if u are outclassed in skill. When i say bum rush i dont mean charge but go for some quick damage. Its a great way to make an entire match come down to 1 decision.

 

[etecoon]

on average falco has the advantage vs approaching meta knight, falco is going to keep him out and reset the situation more often than not. MK wins the matchup because once he does get in he can rack up more damage while the momentum is in his favor(excluding the chain grab obviously) and his edge guarding. waiting until the last minute to break a stalemate is NOT in MK's favor at all, in fact I'd characterize that strategy as being "completely ********"

 

[theunabletable]

Also, they don't happen very frequently. I'd argue that the large number of upsets at MLG Orlando can be attributed to seeding and the ruleset, but we need more data before we can substantiate these claims.

You're saying that the MKs only lost to non-MKs because of a ruleset (one that has a stagelist that definitely favors MK more than normal) and because of random seeding? What does random seeding have to do with non-MKs winning against MKs?

I mean it is random that those non-MKs played against the MKs, yes, but what about that makes all the times at Orlando that top non-MKs beat top MKs? It's random that they played each other, but it still shows that MK doesn't completely dominate (doesn't dominate enough to be banned anyway, imo).

 

[etecoon]

whether or not the stage list favored MK is all theorycraft, green greens is almost never legal, norfair is only legal in a few regions, the way the strikes and continued sets worked was different...I think that these rules do help MK on some MU's like diddy or falco, but I think it's a bit of an assumption to say that it improves him across the board

 

[Raziek]

From what I've heard though, very few MK's actually used the stage list to its gayest extent, which may explain the lack of expected dominance.

I can't say for sure until we see the matches though. I want to see how many actually used Norfair, Greens, and what have you.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From what I've heard though, very few MK's actually used the stage list to its gayest extent, which may explain the lack of expected dominance.

I can't say for sure until we see the matches though. I want to see how many actually used Norfair, Greens, and what have you.

If I went to an MLG event as Solo Link I'd jump on Norfair all the way.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think the problem (kinda) is that Smash will always be a community of choice regardless of the character meeting the second criteria. I find MANY more low and mid and even high tier mains or secondaries in the Smash community compared to Street, MVC2, TvC, hell Tekken and even KOF sometimes.

Not super-important, but I think this is because the playstyles vary more wildly in Brawl than they do in "traditional" fighters.

 

[_OraNoS_]

Poor seeding will knock a lot of top MKs out pretty early also like how you mentioned kel and he is considered a good MK and he was against DEHF first round with little to no exp of falcos in the midwest (to my knowledge)

Because nobody else pointed this out, I want to make sure it is clear that Kel lost to DEHF in winner's round 3 (link to bracket).

 

[Judo777]

on average falco has the advantage vs approaching meta knight, falco is going to keep him out and reset the situation more often than not. MK wins the matchup because once he does get in he can rack up more damage while the momentum is in his favor(excluding the chain grab obviously) and his edge guarding. waiting until the last minute to break a stalemate is NOT in MK's favor at all, in fact I'd characterize that strategy as being "completely ********"

I think u missed my point. Suppose i play MK and seeing as how im not great as MK i play against someone like DEHF. There is no way in hell i could beat DEHF with MK (considering i more than likely cant beat him with my main). Im gonna lose if i fight him and im probably not even good enough to get a lead. But if i say plank for the first 7:30 of the match then that means that when i do come back on stage i only have to outsmart DEHF once to possibly pull off a win. I would much rather try to just outsmart him 1 time than to try and actually fight him since i would get scraped. As i said its a great way to make an entire match come down to the last 30 seconds of a game.

 

[etecoon]

that only gives you worse odds, falco starts the game with the advantage and tends to lose it over time because he can't kill. if there's no LGL anyway you might as well fight the first few minutes and then plank if you can get the lead, if you can't then your plan was never going to work anyway.