Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Z'zgashi]

iirc the yoshis themselves werent even uniform about wanting -3.

Trust me, all the Yoshis (or at least the ones in the BBR) think of that MU as a solid -3.

 

[Ghostbone]

the only character to actually be banned at tournaments.

:master:

 

[Espy Rose]

Except that we didnt have many disputes anyways.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Scatz]

iirc the yoshis themselves werent even uniform about wanting -3.

Sorry, but only 2 people were for -2 as yoshis and one of them went MIA before discussion with other panels even got started.

It went to the final panel since they stopped posting entirely.

 

[Fuujin]

Lol so Browny can come in here and slam an entire thread and the community and get away with it but I get B& for posting a gif?

Lolwut

Mods you so crazy!

 

[Cassio]

Sorry, but only 2 people were for -2 as yoshis and one of them went MIA before discussion with other panels even got started.

It went to the final panel since they stopped posting entirely.

My only point was that its not such a radical/"pathetic" conclusion to come to.

Thanks for proving my point.

If your point is that we dont contend much with opposing panels...I guess.

 

[Orion*]

That unbalanced game? When was the last time any character lower than High Tier did anything in a tournament? Just a couple months ago a Ganon won a tournament in Brawl, at least the balancing isnt BEYOND TERRIBLE. I mean, Brawl's balancing is still pretty bad, but Melee? Oh god, why...

in like 6 years when this game really starts devolving into the piss that its game engine allows, and the only players that are left are the dedicated ones, so thinks like tech barriers, and execution become less of a problem, I want you to come back and say something like this LOL.

Melee isn't perfect, but the balancing is not unreasonable at all, especially in comparison to most fighters (despite the fact that it's been around so long).

Brawls balancing system, by like basis because of the game engine is ********. Punishment in brawl is extremely small (bar ICs), and because of that there's a very large problem in the games risk reward factor. In a sense the game forces you to played this skewed, stressful version of itself that comes to down to this obnoxious amount of patience and/or gimmicky/inconsistent play.

In most of other fighters if you just start throwing out high risk high reward options, you legitimately will die many times when it doesnt go your way. In brawl... well LOL like you just get a small smack on the hand like "you probably shouldn't do that again".

Don't get me wrong, because I do really love this game and I have spent so many enjoyable days playing it. In fact I'm about to practice right now... I also realize that I definitely exaggerate things to a certain point, I do think brawl is a competitive game. But I also think most brawl players are completely delusional to how bad the engine is sometimes...

 

[Espy Rose]

I actually enjoy the minor punishment you get when you make a mistake in Brawl over the 1 Error = Death that many other games like to implement. It's why I enjoy the game so much.

@Tag: Don't be silly. The point is that no one wants to deal with Pikachu's panel, to the extent that they'd let a ratio go just to avoid it.
Brick wall.

 

[Scatz]

My only point was that its not such a radical/"pathetic" conclusion to come to.

Using our panel as a method to come to that conclusion isn't as solid when the discussion was abruptly interrupted with no response from the MKs.

 

[da K.I.D.]

quite right grim, now tell me. Would you have learnt any less, if the chart in the OP had every square replaced by a ?

my problem with this is the sheer amount of time between updates, when many of these matchups have been declared 'wrong' since day 1, but apparently we are forced to live with it for almost 10 months. instead of the BBR spending say, 2,000 hours and 10 months to update the chart in one big shot, it should be 2 lots of 1,000 hour, 5 month intervals. Same amount of work input with a more relevant and accurate chart for many more months of the year.

If they make a mistake with the 5 month interval chart, it doesnt matter, since it will be corrected in 6 months. This is not countered by simply not making mistakes in a 10 month interval, because that is IMPOSSIBLE and potentially more inaccurate as older data is considered instead of erasing everything that is less than 6 months old.

this threads length, and the amount of time discussing ratios which have had no relevance since 2010, is just... amazing. in a bad way.

you seem to forget that most other people are a lot like you. Stubborn, Hard-headed and disagreeable.

It doesnt really matter how accurate the chart is in relation to the people in this thread. Because theres always going to be someone that disagrees, and wont yield to reasoning that runs contrary to theirs. Just because everyone in this thread is disagreeing, it doesnt mean that the chart is wrong. its possible but its not a direct correlation.

not to mention that the vast majority of matchups havent changed since 09. Whats the point in putting out a new chart every 6 months if nothing changes? I mean, you tell me. what sonic matchups have we actually changed our understanding or belief on in the last 6 months?

 

[Cassio]

Rei its annoying, but you cant exactly determine a MU with that either.

Don't be silly. The point is that no one wants to deal with Pikachu's panel, to the extent that they'd let a ratio go just to avoid it.
Brick wall.

But thats simply not true. Everyone we encountered was more than willing to make their case. This is probably because most realized it would be quite silly to state your opinion, refuse to argue, concede when theres no need to, and then be bitter about the result afterwards.

 

[Espy Rose]

Those willing have never met the Pikachus.

 

[Cassio]

Trying to get anything concrete out of you when you've personally determined someone has a different opinion seems impossible, and your resentment in place of thoughts from such odd conclusions is unappreciated. Theres certainly a brick wall, but you frequently point your finger in the opposite direction.

 

[Steam]

Using our panel as a method to come to that conclusion isn't as solid when the discussion was abruptly interrupted with no response from the MKs.

lol that's how the lucario-marth discussion went on V.1. the lucarios wrote walls of text, shaya came in and said Fair. and marth got the +1... lol.

 

[BSP]

Fair is Jesus, and Bair is God obviously

 

[infiniteV115]

On the first day of Christmas, the back room gave to me

 

[Orion*]

instead of the BBR spending say, 2,000 hours and 10 months to update the chart in one big shot, it should be 2 lots of 1,000 hour, 5 month intervals.

Why don't you pay us then LOL
you **** talk about how irrelevant the chart is in the first place, and the say we should make more updates?

cool story bro

I actually enjoy the minor punishment you get when you make a mistake in Brawl over the 1 Error = Death that many other games like to implement. It's why I enjoy the game so much.

I'm not saying 1 error should = death. Let me reiterate myself

There are a Large amount of moves in brawl that have ******** high risk/reward problems. A perfect example is Olimars grab, DKs punch or even diddy's banana.

It's relatively safe for all of these characters to throw these moves out when the option is available to them, and the reward many times is extremely drastic. Olimar has killing throws and low % combos. DK gets massive damage and killing power, and diddy gets a lock across the stage into a smash attack...

If you make any small error in Reacting then you take a large loss as far as brawl standards go. However if you hard read what they're doing and aim to punish it what are most characters rewards? How many times do you see characters getting punished for these things more often than not?
The game many times looks like it's devolving into more of a spam safe high reward options, and occasionally make a read that will pay you off some minor amount in most cases.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You wouldve had to make earlier mistakes before hand to die from any of those though or else you wouldnt have enough damage to die. In melee, 1 mistake is death. In brawl, you need at least 3 or 4 to die. Brawl is far more forgiving, and that's what allows less viable characters to actually have a chance, their unsafe moves dont get completely butt *****.

 

[Doc King]

You wouldve had to make earlier mistakes before hand to die from any of those though or else you wouldnt have enough damage to die. In melee, 1 mistake is death. In brawl, you need at least 3 or 4 to die. Brawl is far more forgiving, and that's what allows less viable characters to actually have a chance, their unsafe moves dont get completely butt *****.

Brawl has so it's just him and him only, no one else is viable.

Why do ppl say Brawl is more balanced than Melee? At least Melee didn't have to ban a character for diversity.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Brawl has

For 1 more month.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Even though MK needed to be banned, Melee's bottom is so terrible, while in Brawl, they aren't so far from center.

 

[Doc King]

For 1 more month.

Even then, Low tiers still have very hard matchups (+4) like:

Lucas vs. DK
Mario vs. D3
Bowser vs. D3 and Climbers
Samus vs. D3.
Falcon vs. Pika

Link vs. Falco
Puff doesn't have one, but many hard counters like Snake, D3, DK, and such.
Zelda vs. Oli, Climbers, and Snake
Ganon vs. Climbers, Oli, Falco, D3, Sheilda, and Sheik

Zelda and Ganon looks like they're gonna be like the new Roll Tier of Brawl. They're both around the same tier as badness. They should probably be bottom tier.

Edit: Well, Melee bottom tier is pretty terrible. Bowser is slow as hell and can't do **** for ****. Ness recovers like crap and is pretty slow. Pichu has like no defense at all. And Kirby is so slow and weak to do anything. Come to think of it. I change my mind. Brawl is more balanced than Melee without mk. But with him Melee is more balanced.

 

[Fuujin]

Even then, Low tiers still have very hard matchups (+4) like:

Lucas vs. DK
Mario vs. D3
Bowser vs. D3 and Climbers
Samus vs. D3.
Falcon vs. Pika

Link vs. Falco
Puff doesn't have one, but many hard counters like Snake, D3, DK, and such.
Zelda vs. Oli, Climbers, and Snake
Ganon vs. Climbers, Oli, Falco, D3, Sheilda, and Sheik

Zelda and Ganon looks like they're gonna be like the new Roll Tier of Brawl. They're both around the same tier as badness. They should probably be bottom tier.

Edit: Well, Melee bottom tier is pretty terrible. Bowser is slow as hell and can't do **** for ****. Ness recovers like crap and is pretty slow. Pichu has like no defense at all. And Kirby is so slow and weak to do anything. Come to think of it. I change my mind. Brawl is more balanced than Melee without mk. But with him Melee is more balanced.

If youre going to put ICs as -4 for Zelda then you need to add .
I peronsally don't think it's that bad.
There are a handful of other match ups just as bad, if not worse().

 

[Delta-cod]

You wouldve had to make earlier mistakes before hand to die from any of those though or else you wouldnt have enough damage to die. In melee, 1 mistake is death. In brawl, you need at least 3 or 4 to die. Brawl is far more forgiving, and that's what allows less viable characters to actually have a chance, their unsafe moves dont get completely butt *****.

This does work both ways, however. For example, in Melee, that low tier theoretically only needs ONE read to get that stock.

 

[Browny]

Why don't you pay us then LOL
you **** talk about how irrelevant the chart is in the first place, and the say we should make more updates?

Reading just never gets easy no matter how much you do it, right?

First I said that the chart is pointless without explanations of the reasoning behind it. Apparently that is being fixed, which is a VERY good thing because the chart was truly pointless without it, everyone simply argued around it, it had no relevance in these 7500 posts.

The next issue is how long it takes and why the enormous delay between updates. It should be just like the tier list. the tier list was updated 3 times in 16 months because when it comes to starting a project, it will invariably be full of methodical flaws, this is impossible to avoid. By iterating it more often, you can 'iron out' the mistakes and errors of the past quicker. I see a problem since if it takes 10 months to update it, at this point in time, why do we care what the 'metagame' was like in february? The longer the delay, the higher the chance that irrelevant, outdated and inaccurate data will be used in the formation of such a chart. Conversely, imagine if the update was 16 months apart. Would anything discussed in the first 8 months, have ANY relevance to the metagame by the end of the 16?

This isnt exactly an in-depth process since ultimately, its 100% subjective. I dont care about how long it takes, since the amount of time people spend on this forum says you have more than enough time to do this and everything else. Im just saying that if we consider a 20 month period from the start of V1.0, to generating a more accurate matchup chart, you will reach a more accurate and relevant chart if you iterate it 3 times in that time period, instead of 2. I see absolutely no reason to doubt that.

Or to put more context to it, releasing the BBR's thought processes that went into this is only as useful as the relevancy of the actual discussions. If you released 200 pages of discussions from 10 months ago, the majority of it is outdated. I would much rather 100 pages of 5-month recent discussion, which they themselves are based off the conclusion of the previous 5 months.

 

[Delta-cod]

The project started at the end of August. The Yoshi panel's self discussion of match ups began on the 28th.

The first wave on interpanel discussion began on the October 2nd.

Everything we discussed is pretty damn relevant now, isn't it?

 

[hichez50]

This is so silly. The match up ratio is fine where it is now. I have yet to hear any jigglypuff player sweep a bunch of diddy players.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

how much longer until the damn 2.0 release? you guys said today or tomorrow YESTERDAY

 

[Cassio]

Browny must expect that everyone sits around and discusses MUs all day.

 

[Doc King]

If youre going to put ICs as -4 for Zelda then you need to add .
I peronsally don't think it's that bad.
There are a handful of other match ups just as bad, if not worse().

Probably. Zelda has a lot of auto win and hard counter matchups like Ganon has. Game and Watch would be bad because you are forced to approach a small character that can heavily punish Din's fire and get bairs very easily.

how much longer until the damn 2.0 release? you guys said today or tomorrow YESTERDAY

It's never coming! It will just keep on getting delayed!

 

[Ishiey]

how much longer until the damn 2.0 release? you guys said today or tomorrow YESTERDAY

Not until the 26th at earliest :/ I was silly and forgot to consider that making a gigantic thread takes time when I said around christmas lol.

Note I said at earliest it'll be out the 26th. It takes time for quality checks and formatting, and I'm not working on the final touches, but the most recent thing I was told indicated a release after Christmas.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Browny getting back to the legitamate points and reasonable level headed discussion that made him one of my favorites. I approve.

That being said, one thing Ill say against your post is that releasing a tier list and updating it 4 or w/e many times in a 20 month timespan in the first 2 years that the game was out is a lot different than expecting a matchup chart to get such drastic, sweeping changes and updates when the first one comes out over three years after the game comes out. Feel me? the reasoning is solid and I agree with it, but it doesnt translate directly to this particular context the way you say.

 

[Chuee]

Zelda and Ganon looks like they're gonna be like the new Roll Tier of Brawl. They're both around the same tier as badness. They should probably be bottom tier.

This is wrong because
1. implying anything is close to Roll's ****tiness
2. implying Zelda's ****tiness is near the same as Ganon's

 

[Grim Tuesday]

DJB, Ant told me about what happened with you beating Scoot

<3

 

[Zankoku]

Sorry about the lateness of the list, my being out and about for the holidays is delaying my ability to run QC on matchup write-ups.

 

[M@v]

Yeah, Zelda's bad, but she's still a lot better than ganondorf :/

 

[Fuujin]

But she really isn't.

 

[B.A.M.]

KID with the truth. Same with Orion. I think its stupid how people receive such little punishments in brawl. However I do believe that the game has potential to have greater punishes than initially inferred. Theres tons of frame traps that are still neglected to this day, and I feel once we actually have solid frame data on EVERYTHING, people will start to see that. Once people do, we can start seeing stronger punishments as ppl start designing punishment setups geared toward solid frame traps. Already I believe theres some stuff that still missing from Snakes dthrow data that could potentially make in some scenarios some straight up 50-50s for him. This is part of the reason I started up some frame trap compendiums; I still feel a ton of ppl dont understand how land solid follow ups that arent based around silly gimmicks and hard reads. Some players in the community have figured out these things already, but theres more to be seen.

This is a big thing when applied to MK too, because theres better punishments thats could be used against this character that could change quite a bit of things due to his lightweight. And although frame traps (well aerial ones) are harder on him due to his good AD theres still a bunch of setups that could spell a ton of damage vs the character. ANd as for Melee, people need to stop seeing it as stock equals a life. All your stocks = your "life" bar. Melee is a better system, in terms of risk/reward for sure. However there ARE things that need to be more abused. And ppl need to get better at freakin juggling in this game, I mean every character basically has some sort of aerial traps ( some stronger than others) but people still go for the hail mary quick jump aerial in hopes for a hit when they could go for something more solid. Same with shield pressure, there are characters that can do some decent traps on the back of shields.

The game is mad limited, but theres is more to be brought to the metagame. I wish people just shared knowledge in our community. Especially to us in Smash Labs. I mean we can test the legitimacy and potentially tap into the potential of that tech. Too many ppl hide ish imo.

That being said I think thats why I love Falco and Marth in this game, they have some very solid strings that setup for others. I swear, sometimes Im play with DEHF and the game looks soo damn good with clean proper setups. Hopefully this game will live to the point where these things are properly broken down and analyzed so we can ALL learn how to punish well in a legitimate manner.

EDIT: I wonder what the MK v. Ness MU will be? MK may have that CG and what not but Ness' Fair > Every MK aerial option including Nado and SL. In fact I would go so far as to say Ness has the most versatile option against nado in the game imo. ***** all his b moves like Sonic's Fair but its disjointed, which makes it exponentially easier to utilize. Add the fact he has solid aerial kill options vs MK as well as a kill throw, and it looks pretty close imo. Heck Ness gets free damage with PKT anytime MK is offstage. Also i know Nick Riddle was speaking about just SLing Ness recovery, but in certain areas that means your own stock. Its not that free. Transcedental Priority doesnt apply to his B moves btw ( which why some characters like Falco can just LOL bair aerial SL like nothing). Not to mention the PKT guarding Ness. Im not saying this is a cakewalk, Im just saying it definitely needs to looked at far more deeply than it currently is. Then again I guess that how it goes when the player is a homie from your own coast.

 

[Doc King]

This is wrong because
1. implying anything is close to Roll's ****tiness
2. implying Zelda's ****tiness is near the same as Ganon's

1. Well, that was a little bit of a joke. Idk much about Roll in MvC2 besides the fact that she's like the joke character and is (Like pretty much every worst character in any game) limited.

2. Zelda and Ganon both have very limited options. They both can't approach well and they can get punished hard (Ganon has more). Although, they have some good followups and good moves (Ganon has more), in the end, they both suck. I think they're pretty much even with each other at this point.

 

[M@v]

But she really isn't.

but she really is. Also I've never seen someone hate on their own character as much as you do. You should probably switch characters