Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Ussi]

Shoulda seen the Marth panel. They made a pessimistic MU spread and I laughed seeing it.

 

[Orion*]

Reading just never gets easy no matter how much you do it, right?

First I said that the chart is pointless without explanations of the reasoning behind it. Apparently that is being fixed, which is a VERY good thing because the chart was truly pointless without it, everyone simply argued around it, it had no relevance in these 7500 posts.

The next issue is how long it takes and why the enormous delay between updates. It should be just like the tier list. the tier list was updated 3 times in 16 months because when it comes to starting a project, it will invariably be full of methodical flaws, this is impossible to avoid. By iterating it more often, you can 'iron out' the mistakes and errors of the past quicker. I see a problem since if it takes 10 months to update it, at this point in time, why do we care what the 'metagame' was like in february? The longer the delay, the higher the chance that irrelevant, outdated and inaccurate data will be used in the formation of such a chart. Conversely, imagine if the update was 16 months apart. Would anything discussed in the first 8 months, have ANY relevance to the metagame by the end of the 16?

This isnt exactly an in-depth process since ultimately, its 100% subjective. I dont care about how long it takes, since the amount of time people spend on this forum says you have more than enough time to do this and everything else. Im just saying that if we consider a 20 month period from the start of V1.0, to generating a more accurate matchup chart, you will reach a more accurate and relevant chart if you iterate it 3 times in that time period, instead of 2. I see absolutely no reason to doubt that.

Or to put more context to it, releasing the BBR's thought processes that went into this is only as useful as the relevancy of the actual discussions. If you released 200 pages of discussions from 10 months ago, the majority of it is outdated. I would much rather 100 pages of 5-month recent discussion, which they themselves are based off the conclusion of the previous 5 months.

KID with the truth. Same with Orion. I think its stupid how people receive such little punishments in brawl. However I do believe that the game has potential to have greater punishes than initially inferred. Theres tons of frame traps that are still neglected to this day, and I feel once we actually have solid frame data on EVERYTHING, people will start to see that. Once people do, we can start seeing stronger punishments as ppl start designing punishment setups geared toward solid frame traps. Already I believe theres some stuff that still missing from Snakes dthrow data that could potentially make in some scenarios some straight up 50-50s for him. This is part of the reason I started up some frame trap compendiums; I still feel a ton of ppl dont understand how land solid follow ups that arent based around silly gimmicks and hard reads. Some players in the community have figured out these things already, but theres more to be seen.

This is a big thing when applied to MK too, because theres better punishments thats could be used against this character that could change quite a bit of things due to his lightweight. And although frame traps (well aerial ones) are harder on him due to his good AD theres still a bunch of setups that could spell a ton of damage vs the character. ANd as for Melee, people need to stop seeing it as stock equals a life. All your stocks = your "life" bar. Melee is a better system, in terms of risk/reward for sure. However there ARE things that need to be more abused. And ppl need to get better at freakin juggling in this game, I mean every character basically has some sort of aerial traps ( some stronger than others) but people still go for the hail mary quick jump aerial in hopes for a hit when they could go for something more solid. Same with shield pressure, there are characters that can do some decent traps on the back of shields.

The game is mad limited, but theres is more to be brought to the metagame. I wish people just shared knowledge in our community. Especially to us in Smash Labs. I mean we can test the legitimacy and potentially tap into the potential of that tech. Too many ppl hide ish imo.

That being said I think thats why I love Falco and Marth in this game, they have some very solid strings that setup for others. I swear, sometimes Im play with DEHF and the game looks soo damn good with clean proper setups. Hopefully this game will live to the point where these things are properly broken down and analyzed so we can ALL learn how to punish well in a legitimate manner.

EDIT: I wonder what the MK v. Ness MU will be? MK may have that CG and what not but Ness' Fair > Every MK aerial option including Nado and SL. In fact I would go so far as to say Ness has the most versatile option against nado in the game imo. ***** all his b moves like Sonic's Fair but its disjointed, which makes it exponentially easier to utilize. Add the fact he has solid aerial kill options vs MK as well as a kill throw, and it looks pretty close imo. Heck Ness gets free damage with PKT anytime MK is offstage. Also i know Nick Riddle was speaking about just SLing Ness recovery, but in certain areas that means your own stock. Its not that free. Transcedental Priority doesnt apply to his B moves btw ( which why some characters like Falco can just LOL bair aerial SL like nothing). Not to mention the PKT guarding Ness. Im not saying this is a cakewalk, Im just saying it definitely needs to looked at far more deeply than it currently is. Then again I guess that how it goes when the player is a homie from your own coast.

The difference in frame traps in this game and in others is that they are not directly guaranteed the same way. Like, in other games SF/Melee whatever if you get a tech chase or knockdown it becomes part read // part muscle memory, and you go like a machine.

In brawl there's almost an inconsistency to this due to the lack of hitstun, and the fact that the opponent probably doesnt even care that they are going to get only like 10% from the punish LOOOL.

There are very few players that really will give you max punishment when they get a single hit from doing this. M2K, Dehf, ADHD (when he's on point but it's been a longgg time since I've seen it...). The japanese have moments when they do it. But to a certain extent they lack punishment in that many times they would choose a consistent option over something more stupid, or in other words they dont abuse brawl enough.

ex: instead of going for a nair read when it's obvious, or just nadoing landing on obvious snakes otori will keep uairing. Snake doesnt care if he only gets 3% because if you make some small *** mistake you're taking a lot or even die past like 70/80 >_>.

In some ways it's a good thing because it allows you to get more of a reward for reading your opponent than just autopiloting tech skill, and this makes brawl pretty fun when you get used to it. But the problem comes from the fact that when characters legit don't care that they are being punished and strategys that rely on your opponent messing up 1/20 times becomes actually viable. In other fighting games if you make a read instead of just hitting tech skill you get more of a reward, but if you choose to just take your initial advantage and just play for keeps and for Consistency...

well it pays off and you get a reward. Brawl really can limit strategies in that sense, and most players have their problems in not knowing when to approach vs camp, knowing when it's actually optimal to push for a read vs just auto pilot, when to go for followups ect. Because it's borderline inconsistent in the reward you get.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

EDIT: I wonder what the MK v. Ness MU will be? MK may have that CG and what not but Ness' Fair > Every MK aerial option including Nado and SL. In fact I would go so far as to say Ness has the most versatile option against nado in the game imo. ***** all his b moves like Sonic's Fair but its disjointed, which makes it exponentially easier to utilize. Add the fact he has solid aerial kill options vs MK as well as a kill throw, and it looks pretty close imo. Heck Ness gets free damage with PKT anytime MK is offstage. Also i know Nick Riddle was speaking about just SLing Ness recovery, but in certain areas that means your own stock. Its not that free. Transcedental Priority doesnt apply to his B moves btw ( which why some characters like Falco can just LOL bair aerial SL like nothing). Not to mention the PKT guarding Ness. Im not saying this is a cakewalk, Im just saying it definitely needs to looked at far more deeply than it currently is. Then again I guess that how it goes when the player is a homie from your own coast.

But ness is like Fox. Both of these characters do well against MK, but they get beaten pretty badly by other characters.

 

[Doc King]

But ness is like Fox. Both of these characters do well against MK, but they get beaten pretty badly by other characters.

I wanna ask, but where the hell do you guys get the idea that Ness is actually good vs. mk. Gimping Ness is as easy as D3's infinite on DK. That alone would make it definitely in mk's favor.

 

[Fuujin]

but she really is. Also I've never seen someone hate on their own character as much as you do. You should probably switch characters

Being realistic =/= hating a character.

Nice try though sis.

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre a little bit more negative than a realist should be Fuu.

 

[Player-1]

Zelda is the worst char in the game next to fox

 

[Death Arcana]

Orions post should be in the OP of every thread

 

[Fuujin]

youre a little bit more negative than a realist should be Fuu.

How so?
I keep it 100% about her unless I'm trolling.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I wanna ask, but where the hell do you guys get the idea that Ness is actually good vs. mk. Gimping Ness is as easy as D3's infinite on DK. That alone would make it definitely in mk's favor.

If brawl was only about recovering, Olimar and Falco wouldnt be Top Tier.

 

[Alacion]

youre a little bit more negative than a realist should be Fuu.

To be honest, many Zeldas are overly optimistic about their character to the point of delusion. Fuujin and to a lesser extent Aero and myself are a bit more grounded.

Maybe Zelda is underrated, but don't forget she is 2nd worst for a reason. Don't get Zelda mains wrong though, we all like her but we don't like how everybody thinks she's decent when she really isn't. Zelda is definitely better than Ganondorf, but not by a large margin.

 

[| Big D |]

Na, Ganondorf is way worse.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I wonder how long people will keep on overrating Falcon among all this Zelda vs Ganon talk.

 

[Fuujin]

Falcon's speed, jab and grab not being ****ty alone put him above Zelda and Ganondorf.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Figured somebody would say that. Pretty sure you're wrong about it though. Falcon barely benefits of his "speed" [his moves aren't actually fast overall] and the risk / reward of his jab and grab are highly unimpressive as well.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I still think falcon should be like 1 or 2 spots lower... that's just me though.

 

[Fuujin]

Falcon barely benefits of his "speed"

Lol okay Gheb

 

[B.A.M.]

The difference in frame traps in this game and in others is that they are not directly guaranteed the same way. Like, in other games SF/Melee whatever if you get a tech chase or knockdown it becomes part read // part muscle memory, and you go like a machine.

In brawl there's almost an inconsistency to this due to the lack of hitstun, and the fact that the opponent probably doesnt even care that they are going to get only like 10% from the punish LOOOL.

There are very few players that really will give you max punishment when they get a single hit from doing this. M2K, Dehf, ADHD (when he's on point but it's been a longgg time since I've seen it...). The japanese have moments when they do it. But to a certain extent they lack punishment in that many times they would choose a consistent option over something more stupid, or in other words they dont abuse brawl enough.

ex: instead of going for a nair read when it's obvious, or just nadoing landing on obvious snakes otori will keep uairing. Snake doesnt care if he only gets 3% because if you make some small *** mistake you're taking a lot or even die past like 70/80 >_>.

In some ways it's a good thing because it allows you to get more of a reward for reading your opponent than just autopiloting tech skill, and this makes brawl pretty fun when you get used to it. But the problem comes from the fact that when characters legit don't care that they are being punished and strategys that rely on your opponent messing up 1/20 times becomes actually viable. In other fighting games if you make a read instead of just hitting tech skill you get more of a reward, but if you choose to just take your initial advantage and just play for keeps and for Consistency...

well it pays off and you get a reward. Brawl really can limit strategies in that sense, and most players have their problems in not knowing when to approach vs camp, knowing when it's actually optimal to push for a read vs just auto pilot, when to go for followups ect. Because it's borderline inconsistent in the reward you get.

Dont get me wrong I completely agree that this is the largest problem in Brawl. That is why im starting with frame traps, then from there identification of scenarios where these can be repeated and some solid damage can be given. Larry (DEHF) and I talk about it all the time; theres just too few players that actually know how to give legitimate punishments out for a wrong choice. I think frame traps aside, its the fact that these people can identify these situations well. They also understand how to chain these setups into one another, something that you should ALWAYS be looking for in any game. They know how to keep a person in that scenario just off that simple mistake. However in order for Brawl to get better, other people are going to have to start doing the same instead of LOL SAFE option.

Fortunately for the future of the game, it seems the community is realizing the importance of this. I DO think its possible for this game to have a good risk/reward in time. Whether the community gets there or not, iono. A ton of people would rather babble nonsense in socials nowadays then actually push their characters metagame. Fortunately for MK, Jason was doing that for them lol. I feel Marths are getting far better at this. I see the average Marth understanding their strong juggles, dtilt and throw traps far more now. Heck Marths are getting better at shield pressure too. Im definitely proud of players like MikeHaze , Mr. R, Leon, and Neo, but even more so Shaya, C.J and Nike who have been breaking down the whys instead of just saying 'oh thats a cool string ima do it.' Because thats how their entire Marth Metagame grows. It cant be done alone; it has to be done as a whole. The game doesnt have the greatest punishes, but they are there. Its Community that has to seek them.

It boggles my mind till this day how noone even few people knew about the grab option selects. While people sit here and swear they know the game all day. Found that ish just with a bit of training. thats it lol. Im sure Delux found it the same way. But im going on a rant.

TL;DR: @ Orion I concur with you ( big surprise there...)

Orion always knows whats up. And if he doesnt know u, you're probably too low to the ground to even think about. Orion 2012

 

[Doc King]

If brawl was only about recovering, Olimar and Falco wouldnt be Top Tier.

YO!

Do you seriously think that Ness actually goes even with mk? No way man.

Also, I didn't say Brawl was only about recovering. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Ur like imo one of the worst posters on here. You always act like a hypocrite in every argument and are usually wrong.

To be honest, many Zeldas are overly optimistic about their character to the point of delusion. Fuujin and to a lesser extent Aero and myself are a bit more grounded.

Maybe Zelda is underrated, but don't forget she is 2nd worst for a reason. Don't get Zelda mains wrong though, we all like her but we don't like how everybody thinks she's decent when she really isn't. Zelda is definitely better than Ganondorf, but not by a large margin.

Wow. I can't believe ppl think that Zelda is decent. She's definitely crappy. She is most likely better than Ganon mainly because she doesn't get comboed as much against characters such as Pika and D3.

 

[Alacion]

Wow. I can't believe ppl think that Zelda is decent. She's definitely crappy. She is most likely better than Ganon mainly because she doesn't get comboed as much against characters such as Pika and D3.

You mean you didn't know that Zelda outspaces Zero Suit Samus's down smash and side b? Zelda's forward smash clearly beats Lucario's.

There was a video of a good Zelda that lost to a Pikachu, so obviously it must be +2 in Zelda's favour. Oh yeah there was one video of Zelda beating a good ROB so it must be 0 to +1.

Zelda's recovery is totally amazing too. Did you know that it can be aimed in 16 different directions? Obviously Farore's Wind is the best recovery in the game.

By properly DI-ing Falco's jab, a lightning kick is guaranteed. Falco also goes even with Zelda.

Zelda has really amazing tools against the high/top tier characters. Zelda actually does extremely well against Snake and it's only -2. Ice Climbers should be -1 or 0 because Zelda's smashes will always land and kill the Ice Climbers. Hm Fuujin and Courier think that King Dedede beats Zelda, so I'm going to screw up the numbers and say the matchup is +6 Zelda.

Spoiler

Yes, this is the stuff Fuujin and I have to deal with in the Zelda boards. How can we NOT be pessimistic about Zelda with stuff like this?

 

[Doc King]

You mean you didn't know that Zelda outspaces Zero Suit Samus's down smash and side b? Zelda's forward smash clearly beats Lucario's.

There was a video of a good Zelda that lost to a Pikachu, so obviously it must be +2 in Zelda's favour. Oh yeah there was one video of Zelda beating a good ROB so it must be 0 to +1.

Zelda's recovery is totally amazing too. Did you know that it can be aimed in 16 different directions? Obviously Farore's Wind is the best recovery in the game.

By properly DI-ing Falco's jab, a lightning kick is guaranteed. Falco also goes even with Zelda.

Zelda has really amazing tools against the high/top tier characters. Zelda actually does extremely well against Snake and it's only -2. Ice Climbers should be -1 or 0 because Zelda's smashes will always land and kill the Ice Climbers. Hm Fuujin and Courier think that King Dedede beats Zelda, so I'm going to screw up the numbers and say the matchup is +6 Zelda.

Spoiler

Yes, this is the stuff Fuujin and I have to deal with in the Zelda boards. How can we NOT be pessimistic about Zelda with stuff like this?

It looks like Jebus and Fluttershy invaded the Zelda boards with alt accounts.

 

[Fuujin]

Zelda boards mentality in a nut shell.

Keep in mind Scary is the only person out of the 4 people picked for the match up chart who actually uses Zelda.

So just imagine if your character had one player representing them on the match up chart, and that one person is delusional enough to think that when they get 3 and 2 stocked in a match up, it should be labeled -1.

 

[Z'zgashi]

YO!

Do you seriously think that Ness actually goes even with mk? No way man.

Also, I didn't say Brawl was only about recovering. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Ur like imo one of the worst posters on here. You always act like a hypocrite in every argument and are usually wrong.

No, I dont think Ness goes even with MK, I think it's a -1 for Ness. I was just pointing out that your argument against Ness not going even with MK was 'lol Ness has a bad recovery' and that's not all the MU is about.

Also, Im pretty sure most people are with me when I say you're one of, if not THE worst poster here, so really I dont care what you think about me at all.

 

[zmx]

Ad Hominem attacks aside I rather think there was just a misunderstanding between the two of you.

 

[Chuee]

Keep in mind Scary is the only person out of the 4 people picked for the match up chart who actually uses Zelda.

Well, even though DM uses MK, he used to be the best Zelda and used her for awhile =/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zelda sucks, but Lady Gaga gifs are overused

I don't know what to believe anymore!!!!

 

[1PokeMastr]

Doc King.
Learn to take a Joke.
Fluttershy.
Keep doing what you do.
I love it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, I dont think Ness goes even with MK, I think it's a -1 for Ness. I was just pointing out that your argument against Ness not going even with MK was 'lol Ness has a bad recovery' and that's not all the MU is about.

Also, Im pretty sure most people are with me when I say you're one of, if not THE worst poster here, so really I dont care what you think about me at all.

Ness' poor options, outside of fair, make approaching a camping MK who has the lead and knows the MU a pain as well.

Its -2, people need to stop underrating MK's MUs just because its MK, a low tier character doing comparatively well against MK =/= "oh, it isn't THAT bad, only -1"

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i agree with fluttershy, that dude is the worst poster on swf.

dear mods, i specified no1, but watch you infract me anyways,

sincerely, the minor infraction collector.

 

[Doc King]

No, I dont think Ness goes even with MK, I think it's a -1 for Ness. I was just pointing out that your argument against Ness not going even with MK was 'lol Ness has a bad recovery' and that's not all the MU is about.

Also, Im pretty sure most people are with me when I say you're one of, if not THE worst poster here, so really I dont care what you think about me at all.

I don't see how Ness would do as good as characters such as Falco, Pika, and Diddy Kong.

You are a hypocrite though. You still didn't show a vid of the air release crap and tell me to do it on training mode. While I actually have a vid of the Yoshi infinite and we even have FRAME DATA of the infinite. And when I told you to do it on training mode, you refused to do it.

i agree with fluttershy, that dude is the worst poster on swf.

dear mods, i specified no1, but watch you infract me anyways,

sincerely, the minor infraction collector.

How am I the worst poster on here?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i specified no1
are you admitting to being the worst poster in which i referanced?

@fluttershy
keep trolling the unspecified one with me. this is fun

 

[Doc King]

Wow. That right there proves that you guys can't talk **** about me at all. If u r just gonna troll a random guy on here, then it's invalid proof of me being a horrible poster. You guys really need to find something better to do with your time.

 

[infiniteV115]

Doc, the reason he didn't show you a video of the air release thingy (iirc you guys were talking about Yoshi's air release --> uair on Jiggs?) is because there probably isn't a video demonstrating air releases on and by various characters. The reason there isn't a video is because air release punishes are common knowledge. And they are common knowledge because we already know that they are frame traps. Tall characters can generally take advantage of air release shenanigans whenever they're facing a short character, and short characters have to watch out.

That said, I do think people are being a bit biased against Doc. I bet if somebody respectable had made a thread about this exact same infinite (DDD's buffered dash dance pivot grab infinite on Yoshi, right?), like Coney or Tech Chase or something, people wouldn't be saying the same things.

Also, DDD sucks.

 

[Steam]

yo, if you want I'll make a video of me doing the air release > uair on jiggz over and over and over just to show you how easy it is.

again, no one denies the pivot grab infinites work. it's just that no one can do them more than once or twice in a row. I personally tried for quite a while to do it and couldn't get a single regrab :L

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

nah im totally just trolling.


btw doc king has gotta be the worst poster on swf hands down.

 

[infiniteV115]

I didn't mean that people are saying that it doesn't work. I meant that people are saying/implying that it doesn't matter because it's hard. I don't see why it should be so hard, so I guess I'll go try it out.

But I've noticed this is a general mentality with players in North America. We say something is too hard to do and then don't try to master it. That's why the Japanese ICs are so much better than ours and drop grabs less often. And that's why none of our notable Diddy mains (AFAIK) are using the single naner lock. And that's why you don't see people using bananas to infinite Diddy when we have a vid of 9B doing it in a tourney match from like 2009 or 2010 (I can't find the video anymore but I know it's old as **** lol), with D3 of all characters.

 

[Doc King]

Doc, the reason he didn't show you a video of the air release thingy (iirc you guys were talking about Yoshi's air release --> uair on Jiggs?) is because there probably isn't a video demonstrating air releases on and by various characters. The reason there isn't a video is because air release punishes are common knowledge. And they are common knowledge because we already know that they are frame traps. Tall characters can generally take advantage of air release shenanigans whenever they're facing a short character, and short characters have to watch out.

That said, I do think people are being a bit biased against Doc. I bet if somebody respectable had made a thread about this exact same infinite (DDD's buffered dash dance pivot grab infinite on Yoshi, right?), like Coney or Tech Chase or something, people wouldn't be saying the same things.

Also, DDD sucks.

Well, it is true that air releasing in the brawl community. BTW, D3 has some cool stuff with Squirtle's air release. You don't have to buffer the dash dancing to infinite Yoshi since it's not frame perfect.

I mean, this is a challenging technique, but it isn't the only one. Like Peach and Wario chaingrab, DK's invincicopter (Which I was actually able to do a few times before and it's much harder to do than D3's infinite on Yoshi), and Climbers infinites are challenging also.

Also, Zero Suit Samus sucks even more than D3 does.

I didn't mean that people are saying that it doesn't work. I meant that people are saying/implying that it doesn't matter because it's hard. I don't see why it should be so hard, so I guess I'll go try it out.

But I've noticed this is a general mentality with players in North America. We say something is too hard to do and then don't try to master it. That's why the Japanese ICs are so much better than ours and drop grabs less often. And that's why none of our notable Diddy mains (AFAIK) are using the single naner lock. And that's why you don't see people using bananas to infinite Diddy when we have a vid of 9B doing it in a tourney match from like 2009 or 2010 (I can't find the video anymore but I know it's old as **** lol), with D3 of all characters.

This!

I mean, Melee Fox needed a lot of tech skill to use and look what happened. Fox was able to overcome Sheik to become the best character in the game. It makes us as a community look very lazy when it comes to tech skill and trying to master things. I think we should practice our tech skills. I think it would make Brawl a much better and much more interesting game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yo, if you want I'll make a video of me doing the air release > uair on jiggz over and over and over just to show you how easy it is.

just do this please so he can shut up about it.

again, no one denies the pivot grab infinites work. it's just that no one can do them more than once or twice in a row. I personally tried for quite a while to do it and couldn't get a single regrab :L

Same for me...

But I've noticed this is a general mentality with players in North America. We say something is too hard to do and then don't try to master it. That's why the Japanese ICs are so much better than ours and drop grabs less often. And that's why none of our notable Diddy mains (AFAIK) are using the single naner lock. And that's why you don't see people using bananas to infinite Diddy when we have a vid of 9B doing it in a tourney match from like 2009 or 2010 (I can't find the video anymore but I know it's old as **** lol), with D3 of all characters.

We'd rather focus on out thinking our opponent than out tech skilling people. good reads are consistent. tech skill can be dropped. at least thats how I see it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Grab releases are essential to advancing the metagame of characters. Hence why I found out all the ones from and compiled it into a thread. Being able to Fsmash or Dacus out of GR is pretty ****ing good .

 

[Steam]

or being able to lolsideB lucario :0