Mew2King vs. Ken - An Age-Old Debate

[Slashtap]

This debate has undoubtedly taken place numerous times over the course of Melee's history, but I'd like to see the responses myself and have a permanent source to go to for the verdict on this question.

Who has the greatest peak ability, or who would win if they played a match against each other at their peak ability, Mew2King or Ken?

Just to clarify, the first question asks about their ability with all their mains (in Ken's case, just Marth). The second question asks about if they actually played, so M2K would most likely be using Sheik vs. Ken's Marth for that question.

I am asking who would win in an actual match between peak Ken (2007 ish) and peak M2K (current).

I am NOT asking who had the greater smash career or who was the "greater" smash player.
I am NOT asking who has a more successful tournament history.
I am NOT asking who would win if there were some hypothetical Ken who learned all the metagame that he missed out on from retirement until present.
I am NOT asking how good you think Ken would be if he had not retired.

I AM asking about the actual Ken at his actual peak that actually happened, vs. actual M2K at his actual present peak, playing in an actual match with today's tournament rules, including counterpicking (hence why at least some of the rounds will be Sheik vs. Marth).

 

[mexicanmax227]

 

[Frame Perfect]

nobody beats m2k in marth dittos. no one. he has 4-stocked mango, cort, taj.... this list goes on and has 3-stocked ken, koreandj, you name it. it's not even close, even now... and the terrifying this is he pretty much plays off of pure muscle memory nowadays because his focus is making money in brawl. to put it in perspective he went from winning multiple nationals in mlg brawl, not focusing on melee, and by that time he was ready to win mlg championships when they banned him days earlier. then literally 2 weeks after that he was 2 stocks away from winning a melee national at rom3 vs pp.

 

[t3h Icy]

In my opinion, Mew2King is really good at Smash Brothers.

 

[john!]

ken would get destroyed...

 

[Juggleguy]

There was a point in time where I thought if Ken came back to today's Melee metagame and attended a national, he'd still easily make top 16.

Not anymore. My current opinion is that he wouldn't even make brackets at a national such as Pound 5. The Melee metagame is too fast, too technical, and the punishes too brutal for Ken to survive without overhauling his bait and react game, approaches, and defensive strategy. Mew2King would destroy Ken if they played a set with both at their peak ability... with any of his three main characters.

 

[Pikaville]

inb4kenshowsupandtalkssometrash

 

[Zodiac]

I do beleive m2k beasted ken in mlg more times than ken beasted him

Edit: I think m2k would have this, not that it would come lightly

 

[strawhats]

Lol if m2k used sheik against ken's marth it would be worse than ****. If they marth ditto'd m2k would still pwn. M2K in his peak was literally a robotic machine with nearly frame perfect precision, not to mention sick spacing. Ken at this stage in the metagame even at his peak,which imo was Evo World 2k7 where m2k was knocked out early in pools in a Bo1 round and turned down a challenge by said m2k who challenged Ken to a marth ditto MM, would get ***** by the likes of mango, pp, armada, hbox, and m2k.

 

[t3h Icy]

I think the debate is more who has been the star of Melee. Mew2King would obviously crush Ken these days. I bet even DarkFalco73 could beat him.

 

[Bones0]

I'm not amused by all the trolling in this thread.

Ken is clearly the greatest smasher. Check the MLG record books; it's pretty obvious. Anyone who thinks he would ever lose to Mew2King (basically a second-rate version of Azen's Marth) clearly doesn't know what they're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFk4NiYEBfg

'Nuff said.

 

[AlphaZealot]

For their times, Ken was the better player comparatively.

 

[UberMario]

Isai is clearly the greatest smasher.

Fixed.

As for Ken and Mew2King, it's hard to really go with one or the other, but I'm going to agree with Alpha and say that, compared to their competition, Ken was better.

 

[SuperMatt]

apples and oranges

and mangos

 

[Life]

I think Ken did better at his peak, but I also agree that he'd be practically starting over if he came back.

 

[huMps]

Azen almost made bracket at pound 5 and he's so wreckless it's hard to watch at times. I think ken would have had a very good chance of making it into the bracket. Playing 2007 marth isn't like playing 2007 fox. a great marth player can always be a great marth player. Just gotta know the way they're going to come at you has changed(faster/more aggressive) but marth always has a sword, and ken had one hell of a DD and grab game.

 

[Zodiac]

Isai is clearly the greatest smasher..

When he's not sandbagging that is.

 

[Stev]

Most accomplished =/= best. You can be better than someone, but accomplish less.

 

[huMps]

sad but very true

 

[Banks]

Ken would probably do as well as M2K would at something like Pound 5. The only difference is that M2K has stayed in practice enough to potentially beat the current active top players. While Ken might get beaten more soundly by PP or Mango than M2K would, to say he wouldn't make it out of pools is ridiculous. He would either have to forget the fundamental aspects of gameplay, or get horribly seeded into a death pool.

In reality, he would do roughly as well as any high level player would do. You don't ever forget how to play smart. It would take him all of five minutes to adapt to people double shining his shield.

 

[Archangel]

I believe that Ken is probably the most "accomplished" Smasher of all time. With that said I believe their are currently players that have never placed top 10 at a major event that could beat Ken(at his best) in a set now.

This isn't to say he couldn't get better then his previous peak.

 

[JPOBS]

For their times, Ken was the better player comparatively.

Hmm...I have to disagree.

I think Ken's era had 3-5 legends that everyone knows/loves and because ken almost always came out on top, this what has lead you to believe this. I think ken, kdj, chu, azen, isai, PC chris, m2k.... but the rest of the pool of players wasn't that great

I think the current metagame M2k plays in is much much deeper as well as the top 5 or so guys being overall even more skilled. The top 32/48 at nationals these days are all ****ing amazing. At older tournies I'd say only the top 8 or maybe 16 players were anything special.

In a crew battle 5v5 between PP, mango, M2k, Armada and Hbox vs the aformentioned legends, I think the legends would be beat pretty vicously. Even if we could magically have them play at their peak/prime levels.

So I think Ken might have played with legends, but m2k did too, and still does and gets like 3-5th.

M2k > ken as a player imo.

 

[Winston]

There'd be a real chance he wouldn't make it out of pools at pound 5, but he'd still be very likely to.

 

[Slashtap]

I think the debate is more who has been the star of Melee. Mew2King would obviously crush Ken these days. I bet even DarkFalco73 could beat him.

This pretty much sums up why I created this thread. Whenever there is debate over Ken vs. M2K, people always misconstrue it as a stardom comparison. They bring up ethereal ideas like fame, relation to other players in their time period, etc. The more famous/profitable/successful smasher is in itself is a valid issue to debate, but to use it as an arguing point in the matter of "who would win" is a fallacy.

So far in this topic, it seems unanimous that M2K at his peak would defeat Ken at his peak. And I shall link to this topic in the future to address all those who turn the debate from "who would win if they played each other at their primes" into one of "who had the better career."

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Pound for pound Ken is definitely the better player. Go back and watch some of his matches from '04-'06. He was doing things then that it took people a long time to pick up on. Of course M2K in his prime would dominate Ken in his prime, but that's a silly argument. Ken has overall had the best career out of any Melee player to date.

 

[Wake]

If they played, I would put money on M2K everytime.

 

[Archangel]

Pound for pound Ken is definitely the better player. Go back and watch some of his matches from '04-'06. He was doing things then that it took people a long time to pick up on. Of course M2K in his prime would dominate Ken in his prime, but that's a silly argument. Ken has overall had the best career out of any Melee player to date.

to say that Mew2King at his height or even out of practice would still beat Ken isn't really a silly argument.....its about as silly as saying Ken is better because he had more accomplishments which all things considered...may be true...outside of smash their is no question. Inside of smash...i think M2K might have even won more tournaments now. Especially if u count brawl.........

I agree Ken wrote the script on Marth from the ground up but Mew2King took the script, rewrote it, took it to Hollywood an got it made into an academy award winning film.

lets take something like Basketball for example. You think the first few teams to ever play would have a shot against any NBA team now? What about the runners that came before Usain Bolt?...have a chance? what about the VCR? Does it have anything on DVD? What about DVD's compared to Blue-ray? Basic Cable compared to HD.....you catching my drift? >_>

no disrespect intended but I find this accomplishment stance to be pretty silly myself. Especially considering that it couldn't be repeated today. Who was good at smash 04-06 a handful of talented players no disagreement their. But I'd say maybe.....10 could survive todays highest standards at Apex or pound 5 level? think about it....You were considered a great fox player if u could shffl/wave-shine...Falcon players moved at half the speed they do today back in 04-05ish times. Puffs didnt exist like they do today...no characters existed like they do today......Ken 06 level doesn't make it out of pools anylonger I'm afraid... Don't get me wrong I love ken almost in the homo way but....realistically it's not happening.

 

[Armada]

Ken was a ****ing awesome player a long time ago

The metagame is something new now and the players overall is way better.
Yeah Ken was the best player many years ago but m2k would beat him easliy even if Ken played like he did in his prime

 

[VA]

It depends on how you measure it.

Head-to-head

Overall ability of the player

Innovation

I suppose there's a massive range of indicators you could use?

I think around the time that Ken quit it's possible to claim he was better than m2k (at thetime) over a greater range...but now it's sort of unquestionable that m2k is better.

 

[hungrybox]

Ken was the more efficient smasher

head to head in their primes....

M2K, I suppose. Both are legends.

 

[VA]

I think it's good to mention Ken again. It has been so long since I've seen a thread on here mention him. He influenced the way so many people learned the game...

M2k is my favourite smasher though...MARTH

 

[Slashtap]

Once again, I reiterate my original post, wherein I stated that the scenario is of Ken and Mew2King playing a match against each other. This is not a comparison of their smash careers.

And given my prompt, the unanimous vote is evidently for Mew2King. To all future posters I link this topic to: note that some very reputable names who truly understand smash are also in agreement on this matter. This isn't just random fanboys saying omg M2K can beat Ken.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Of course a top 2011 player would beat a top 2007 player. It's a pretty stupid question really when looking at the evolution of any video game metagame.

Ken has far and away the most national wins, most money made, and was the better player over his competition which is all a player can do. I think talent wise Ken is better-even though if they played today he would lose.

In any sport/video a truly talented, instoppable player can emerge at any time-regardless how far the field has progressed-M2K was not that player (mango might have been briefly but even that is meh compared to Ken).

 

[Doser]

In any sport/video a truly talented, instoppable player can emerge at any time-regardless how far the field has progressed-M2K was not that player (mango might have been briefly but even that is meh compared to Ken).

You're forgetting that as a game matures, in general there become more players able to vie for the top spot(s).

Look at Quake 3, everyone sucked Fatal1ty's **** for winning so much, but now that the game has matured more and more players are at the peak level of play. You have Rapha, Cypher, Cooller, Stermy, Av3k, K1llsen, and Strenx etc. who can beat each other any given day. Each of them could wreck Fatal1ty without breaking a sweat.

When a game is new it's much easier to be the stand out player (obviously it's not easy in normal terms, but it is much more possible) than when a game is 10+ years old and everyone has had time to learn the game fully.

 

[Ryucloud]

I feel like every time this argument comes up about ken vs the new generation vs (mew2king ) that ken gets powned just because of the new "meta-game". I completely agree with the fact that compared to the ken area and now that the meta-game has changed dramatically faster more technical. But i want to clear up a couple points first of all ken has beaten or better yet destroyed mew2king back in most mlg events the only time i ever seen mew2king beat ken was at the ny playoffs which we all know but than back at mlg vegas ken beat m2k again continuing is positive record over m2k. Ken as a smasher and as a competitive player is better than mew2king because of such a weak mind set that M2k has for him self. Ken confidence and Incredible game sense is amazing and knows how the game is suppose to be played . thats why i feel that ken and mango is so similar because both was so ahead of their age and their ability to READ ppl. Ken beaten m2k pc azen and DESTROYED mango( and made him rage quit) back than(but mango would destroy ken now though with out a doubt) .I remember in a interview after evo 2k7 that ken said that he could read pc and m2k like a book. Think about what ken skill level would be if he adapted to the new meta-game sheesh thats a scary thought lol. But back to the m2k and ken debate in their prime I guess Ken (0c2 evo 2k7) vs Mew2king(long island Fc diamond) mew2king has the advantage because or his frame perfect play and spacing but ken has the advantage because of his better game sense, expereince, and mind set. But i feel like this whole thing would have been cleared up if mew2king and ken just played that mm at evo 2k7

 

[AlphaZealot]

Doser: Ken was that stand out player from 2004-2007. You are missing the point: regardless of how high the average level of competition is, a solid best, phenomenal player can still emerge. That hasn't happened since Ken was around, again with the exception of maybe Mango for a year. It will happen again eventually in Melee where a player just dominates for a year or two, winning every national. M2K was never that player though.

Those new Quake players would beat Fatality, for sure. And it was probably easier to stand out among the competition when Fatality was winning in the early days because the tournaments were not very big. That said, if someone were to be compared to Fatality, they would still have to stand out among their peers. It is entirely possible. Maybe it is harder, but that is a moot point, because in every game and in every sport the competition will always be harder comparatively than it was a decade beforehand as things innovate and training evolves.

However, there is a point where your comparison diverges: Melee in 2006/2007, when Ken was still dominant, had 100-150+ person tournaments almost every single month. The scene was far more active and there were far more players playing then, then there are now.

 

[DippnDots]

to say that Mew2King at his height or even out of practice would still beat Ken isn't really a silly argument.....its about as silly as saying Ken is better because he had more accomplishments which all things considered...may be true...outside of smash their is no question. Inside of smash...i think M2K might have even won more tournaments now. Especially if u count brawl.........

I agree Ken wrote the script on Marth from the ground up but Mew2King took the script, rewrote it, took it to Hollywood an got it made into an academy award winning film.

lets take something like Basketball for example. You think the first few teams to ever play would have a shot against any NBA team now? What about the runners that came before Usain Bolt?...have a chance? what about the VCR? Does it have anything on DVD? What about DVD's compared to Blue-ray? Basic Cable compared to HD.....you catching my drift? >_>

no disrespect intended but I find this accomplishment stance to be pretty silly myself. Especially considering that it couldn't be repeated today. Who was good at smash 04-06 a handful of talented players no disagreement their. But I'd say maybe.....10 could survive todays highest standards at Apex or pound 5 level? think about it....You were considered a great fox player if u could shffl/wave-shine...Falcon players moved at half the speed they do today back in 04-05ish times. Puffs didnt exist like they do today...no characters existed like they do today......Ken 06 level doesn't make it out of pools anylonger I'm afraid... Don't get me wrong I love ken almost in the homo way but....realistically it's not happening.

what the hell is a VCR?

 

[Slashtap]

Ryucloud, that's all true, but not at all an answer to my question. Ken beat M2K at a time when M2K was not at his own peak. And the rest of your post is about the level Ken would potentially reach if he kept playing. Whether Ken or M2K has more potential is a separate discussion and deserves its own topic should you wish to pursue it.

The question here is: at their actual peaks, Ken's in 2007, M2K's more or less now, who would win in a match? On this question I have not yet seen a vote for Ken in this thread, and several of the votes are coming from some strong and reputable figures in the community. Which will make this a useful topic to show to the naysayers.

 

[Superspright]

@Alpha:

The tournaments back in the day had big cash prizes. Nowadays it is not the same.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

There is no question that Mew2King would destroy Ken. He loses to nobody in Marth dittos and he also has a huge advantage with his Sheik. I feel like his fox would also beat him, but it would be less of a rapefest. Ken might have been the stand out player in the beginning, but i feel that M2k's Marth has made more of an impression on the community solely due to his superior game vs spacies.

I have to agree with the people saying that Ken wouldnt make it out of pools at a national. Ken's Marth was similar in level to Azens Marth and as you all know, Azen didnt make bracket at Pound V.