Mew2King vs. Ken - An Age-Old Debate

[King Funk]

Isai is clearly the greatest smasher.

When he's not sandbagging that is.

That was cheesy. Melee boards lacking originality lately.

 

[Ryucloud]

haha kinda got carried away, yea but i think the answer preety obv that mew2king 2011 would beat ken 2007 it just that when people compare m2k to ken it mostly around the marth meta - game but yea m2k now would beat ken at his peak than

 

[AXE 09]

There was a point in time where I thought if Ken came back to today's Melee metagame and attended a national, he'd still easily make top 16.

Not anymore. My current opinion is that he wouldn't even make brackets at a national such as Pound 5.

I wouldn't go that far... I'm confident he would've at least made the bracket.

what about the VCR? Does it have anything on DVD? What about DVD's compared to Blue-ray? Basic Cable compared to HD.....you catching my drift? >_>

what the hell is a VCR?

LOL I lost it pretty hard

 

[Ecks]

As was mentioned before, the metagame has advanced a lot since Ken. He would not win.

lol@ the VCR thing.

 

[~Tac~]

Of course a top 2011 player would beat a top 2007 player. It's a pretty stupid question really when looking at the evolution of any video game metagame.

Ken has far and away the most national wins, most money made, and was the better player over his competition which is all a player can do. I think talent wise Ken is better-even though if they played today he would lose.

Things should have slowed down here anyway.

Simply put, the way the game was played in 07 was comparably different. Not excusing that as a reason why Ken would lose in a "peak ability" match. But secondly, there're things that have been learned and methods of doing some of the things Ken would do for an action, but better.

Ken(Marth) vs M2K(Fox) 2007

Watching this, you could obviously compare Ken's peak 2007 methods to say...M2K's 2011 methods to fighting a Fox. Although still effective, the more recent matchup of Marth-Fox is easily displayed.

M2K(Marth) vs. Juggleguy(Fox) 2011

 

[booshk]

lol i think that's kind of an unfair comparison of the marth-fox matchup. something like ken beasting chilling vs mew2king against juggleguy would be closer i think >_>.

i think ken would make pools, but if he gets an incredibly hard pool maybe not. but i'm sure he would lol, cmon its ken.

and sure ken has maybe made more profit from melee but that's not the topic here is it?
mew2king would tap ken in marth dittos, tap ken with his sheik
and his fox now is much better i think he'd beat ken but it'd be closer than the other 2 matchups.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

to say that Mew2King at his height or even out of practice would still beat Ken isn't really a silly argument.....its about as silly as saying Ken is better because he had more accomplishments which all things considered...may be true...outside of smash their is no question. Inside of smash...i think M2K might have even won more tournaments now. Especially if u count brawl.........

I agree Ken wrote the script on Marth from the ground up but Mew2King took the script, rewrote it, took it to Hollywood an got it made into an academy award winning film.

lets take something like Basketball for example. You think the first few teams to ever play would have a shot against any NBA team now? What about the runners that came before Usain Bolt?...have a chance? what about the VCR? Does it have anything on DVD? What about DVD's compared to Blue-ray? Basic Cable compared to HD.....you catching my drift? >_>

no disrespect intended but I find this accomplishment stance to be pretty silly myself. Especially considering that it couldn't be repeated today. Who was good at smash 04-06 a handful of talented players no disagreement their. But I'd say maybe.....10 could survive todays highest standards at Apex or pound 5 level? think about it....You were considered a great fox player if u could shffl/wave-shine...Falcon players moved at half the speed they do today back in 04-05ish times. Puffs didnt exist like they do today...no characters existed like they do today......Ken 06 level doesn't make it out of pools anylonger I'm afraid... Don't get me wrong I love ken almost in the homo way but....realistically it's not happening.

So like...for the first part of this post you start to disagree with me on my thinking of this being a silly argument. But it really kind of is. It's like saying, "Who would win a falco ditto? TheSweetness or Dr. PP?" Only to a lesser degree. If you didn't know, theSweetness was a dominate falco player from like 2002-2004. He was one of the main pioneers of pillaring. So with that, I entirely agree with you that M2K in his prime would **** Ken in his prime. I wrote nearly that exact same sentence in the post you quoted me on.

But then you go on to argue with somebody else about DVDs and VHS tapes. I'm not sure exactly who you're arguing with there, because we're on the same page as far as that goes.

But for clarification, the term "pound for pound" generally means all things considered. It's like a fraction. Is 3/8 better than 14/40? Yeah...just a bit. The term is used a bit in MMA. Pound for pound, Georges St Pierre is one of the greatest fighters of all time. But can he beat Cain Velasquez? Probably not, because there is a massive size difference. See what I'm getting at here?

A common argument is "Who is the best Chess player of all time?" In which two players are generally considered, Bobby Fischer and Garry Kasparov. So if Fischer in his prime played Kasparov in his prime who would win? Well undoubtedly Kasparov. He studied Fischer's game his entire career to improve his own and then expanded on it. However many players consider the argument "Who would win: Fischer vs Kasparov both in their primes and both given 6-12 months to prepare for the match?" In my opinion, Fischer.

So this is a good way to determine the pound for pound argument. Lets resurrect Ken from the dead in his prime, and give him 6-12 months of competing in today's metagame, while allowing M2K the same opportunity. Who would win? In my opinion, Ken would crush him. Like somebody earlier pointed out, M2K's weak mental capacity and proneness to accept defeat could very well cost him the match against the much psychologically stronger Ken. But again, Ken in 2007 would get ***** by M2K 2011. If you have trouble seeing this, anybody with a firm understanding of the game on a competitive level can go back and watch circa 2007 games and pick Kens flaws apart. Not so easy for pros nowadays.

And Slashtap I'm still bewildered you'd even make this topic. I mean from the sounds of it you apparently were trying to prove a point to somebody or a group of somebody's and couldn't do it without making this topic?

 

[Stev]

Why do people think it's an outlandish idea that Ken wouldn't make brackets? Azen didn't. If Ken gets unlucky, he might miss brackets the same way

 

[Archangel]

So like...for the first part of this post you start to disagree with me on my thinking of this being a silly argument. But it really kind of is. It's like saying, "Who would win a falco ditto? TheSweetness or Dr. PP?" Only to a lesser degree. If you didn't know, theSweetness was a dominate falco player from like 2002-2004. He was one of the main pioneers of pillaring. So with that, I entirely agree with you that M2K in his prime would **** Ken in his prime. I wrote nearly that exact same sentence in the post you quoted me on.

But then you go on to argue with somebody else about DVDs and VHS tapes. I'm not sure exactly who you're arguing with there, because we're on the same page as far as that goes.

But for clarification, the term "pound for pound" generally means all things considered. It's like a fraction. Is 3/8 better than 14/40? Yeah...just a bit. The term is used a bit in MMA. Pound for pound, Georges St Pierre is one of the greatest fighters of all time. But can he beat Cain Velasquez? Probably not, because there is a massive size difference. See what I'm getting at here?

A common argument is "Who is the best Chess player of all time?" In which two players are generally considered, Bobby Fischer and Garry Kasparov. So if Fischer in his prime played Kasparov in his prime who would win? Well undoubtedly Kasparov. He studied Fischer's game his entire career to improve his own and then expanded on it. However many players consider the argument "Who would win: Fischer vs Kasparov both in their primes and both given 6-12 months to prepare for the match?" In my opinion, Fischer.

So this is a good way to determine the pound for pound argument. Lets resurrect Ken from the dead in his prime, and give him 6-12 months of competing in today's metagame, while allowing M2K the same opportunity. Who would win? In my opinion, Ken would crush him. Like somebody earlier pointed out, M2K's weak mental capacity and proneness to accept defeat could very well cost him the match against the much psychologically stronger Ken. But again, Ken in 2007 would get ***** by M2K 2011. If you have trouble seeing this, anybody with a firm understanding of the game on a competitive level can go back and watch circa 2007 games and pick Kens flaws apart. Not so easy for pros nowadays.

And Slashtap I'm still bewildered you'd even make this topic. I mean from the sounds of it you apparently were trying to prove a point to somebody or a group of somebody's and couldn't do it without making this topic?

I know the term pound for pound(hug boxing fan seen every fight that ever happened). However it's use to recognize technical skills of a fighter so they don't have to beat someone who is too tall and too heavy for them to defeat.

what u are talking about is something new. Perhaps neuron for neuron is what you are arguing. You believe Ken is smarter or mentally tougher overall. Which may or may not be true. Ken seemed tougher against his opposition....on the other hand...where is Ken? Why isn't he competing now. M2K kicks, screams, and cries but in the long run he soldiers up and plays. I haven't seen Ken around anywhere? Maybe his mind isn't as strong as it once was.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I thought somebody revived a thread from 2008 or something <_<

Ken was the best player in his time but the metagame has developed and he's stopped playing for years. I'm sure there are a lot of people that can beat him now.

 

[DippnDots]

pretty sure everyone in this thread is saying roughly the same thing, just with slightly different insights as to why

 

[Dimitris]

First thing you learn when you're going for a degree in history: don't compare people/events from different time periods. Because the comparisson doesn't mean anything.

 

[john!]

Why do people think it's an outlandish idea that Ken wouldn't make brackets? Azen didn't. If Ken gets unlucky, he might miss brackets the same way

there were a LOT of ken fanboys back in the day, they just have a hard time accepting the idea that ken would get beaten so easily by today's top pros.

ken did suffer a few losses during his prime. i actually think mango was more dominant during his reign; when he actually tried hard to win (which he probably would have if he had the chance to win as much money as ken) then nobody could come close to defeating him. this is arguably still true, with the possible exception of dr. pp, but it's hard to tell since he doesn't seem to care about winning anymore.

 

[Ryucloud]

Just because azen ( who obv wasnt playing seriously or even perpared) didnt make it out of pools dosent mean ken would follow the same path they are two differnt people with different levels of play thats the same logic like saying cause Vegeta didnt make it out of the tourney doesnt mean Goku wouldnt? The thing about ken is that when i watch him play you can see his talent in the game that not alot of players have which made him MJ of Smash

But i think question prime ken 2007 vs mew2king 2011 is a preety unsmart question who would win

A better question is if the 2 players got a chance to prepare for a match with eachother who would win?

BTW LOOOOOL @ VCR

 

[Ryucloud]

MEw2king mind set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2WOwI7U2mk

Ken Talent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWQqhRo5O7M



IM OUT!!!!!

 

[Peek¹]

2007 mew2king vs 2011 mew2king?

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I know the term pound for pound(hug boxing fan seen every fight that ever happened). However it's use to recognize technical skills of a fighter so they don't have to beat someone who is too tall and too heavy for them to defeat.

what u are talking about is something new. Perhaps neuron for neuron is what you are arguing. You believe Ken is smarter or mentally tougher overall. Which may or may not be true. Ken seemed tougher against his opposition....on the other hand...where is Ken? Why isn't he competing now. M2K kicks, screams, and cries but in the long run he soldiers up and plays. I haven't seen Ken around anywhere? Maybe his mind isn't as strong as it once was.

The thing about that though is that Ken has truly moved on from Melee. It's not like when Azen or Chu (or many others) retired yet can still be seen around a tournament here or there. Ken is done. I'm pretty sure he has his degree now and has moved on from the game. So yeah just because he's not competing anymore doesn't mean his mind is any less strong. I'm on a first name basis with his brother Mike so I could probably ask him. I just don't because I'm sure they get bothered still to this day about it. I would consider asking for a quick interview though for the sake of the smash community finally getting some answers to some burning questions they have. (if you didn't know I'm actually from California and played in many tournaments with them 2005-2007).

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

there were a LOT of ken fanboys back in the day, they just have a hard time accepting the idea that ken would get beaten so easily by today's top pros.

ken did suffer a few losses during his prime. i actually think mango was more dominant during his reign; when he actually tried hard to win (which he probably would have if he had the chance to win as much money as ken) then nobody could come close to defeating him. this is arguably still true, with the possible exception of dr. pp, but it's hard to tell since he doesn't seem to care about winning anymore.

it can never be proven either way, so you can't state your assumptions as facts. There is no proving that if Ken picked up the game seriously again he wouldn't be competing for the top spots once again...

Either way, Ken is hands down the MJ of smash.... the king... the emperor. That is his title and will never be taken from him.

 

[~Tac~]

Either way, Ken is hands down the MJ of smash.... the king... the emperor. That is his title and will never be taken from him.

I think that's a brilliant way to end the thread.

 

[Archangel]

Judging from how this is gone. I'd say people would rather not argue facts at all. They'd rather argue feelings instead. Many players were inspired by Ken. He was and still is their smash-hero. Same for Isai inspired or KDJ inspired players....even got a few M2K/Shiz inspired players now. To those people their smash hero will always be the perfect player. They'll cover for them even if it's unneeded. As a result this threw won't progress. All that can be discussed here is who's nuts taste better. Jasons or Kens.

/Thread

 

[Slashtap]

Judging from how this is gone. I'd say people would rather not argue facts at all. They'd rather argue feelings instead.

Very true. I could not have stated my question more clearly, yet posters still took the discussion to hypothetical Ken who never quit vs. today's M2K, or they took it to best career: Ken vs. M2K. People often would much rather argue their feelings.

However, the posters which did answer my question all cast their vote in favor of M2K, including some quite respectable players. Every last one of them. And I want every Ken fanboy I ever provide the link to this topic to recognize this. There is no argument that a 2007 Ken would lose to a 2011 M2K. Get over yourselves.

 

[~Tac~]

Given. Gone. Good.

 

[EpixAura]

I believe if they were fighting at their peak, Ken would win. Statistically speaking, Ken has made more money than M2K in a much shorter time, which says something about his abilities. There really hasn't been anyone in Melee as devastating as Ken in his prime, IMO. I was much more interested in watching Ken than M2K, even before I gave a **** about Smash and didn't even know who they were.
I agree the current M2K could beat the 07 Ken, but only because of how much the metagame has changed. However, it's been said many times the metagame may not be evolving, but just changing, in which case, M2K may not have such a big advantage.
But I'd still but my money on '11 M2K.

 

[strawhats]

just thought you'd all love to see these matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTlXZ0PQ28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM9tQZpcHq4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C0y0jYq1ng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsqlstAQeg8

Both ****** Mango
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWQqhRo5O7M (Ken vs Mango Evo 2k7 Set Match 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM&feature=related (M2K vs Mango SCC Match 1)
BTW...I am a fan of both Ken and M2K but when it comes down to it, regardless of Ken's intelligence and mindset, M2k's marth dittoing skills are just too viscious, and this was back in '07.

 

[Plum]

2007 mew2king vs 2011 mew2king?

2011 M2K would convince himself that he can't play as well as he actually can and give the match to 2007 M2K.

2007 M2K had a passion for the game that you really don't see in 2011 M2K, and I wouldn't be surprised if that would be enough to beat his future self despite a rise in overall skill level.

 

[strawhats]

I feel like m2k back in 2k7 was more aesthetically pleasing to watch (his marth especially) play more so than now especially against top level opponents. Whether that is a result in the increased speed, spacing, stage positioning, knowledge of m2k's traps and habits,technical prowess that players of this era have more so prevalent than back when m2k was in his prime or m2k's lack of motivation, life issues, and a lack of actually practicing the game with the same enthusiasm and length of hours that he used to practice to maintain his marth/fox's movement game. His marth just doesn't flow like water like it used to back in the good old days against tougher opponents. This and his mental toughness is way below where he used to be. He gives up before the fight even begins.

 

[Archangel]

I believe if they were fighting at their peak, Ken would win. Statistically speaking, Ken has made more money than M2K in a much shorter time, which says something about his abilities.....But I'd still put my money on '11 M2K.

dude...what?....

I feel like.....etc

The bold and Italic indicate what I mean....how can Ken making more money that M2K in a shorter amount of time have ANYTHING to do with this debate? All it actually proves is that when Melee was newer smashers made more money off of winning...thats where it ends....

 

[strawhats]

wait what...I didn't mention anything about money.

 

[Archangel]

wait what...I didn't mention anything about money.

I was talking to that other guy.

 

[KishPrime]

As many have said, this is really a pretty silly conversation. Let's say 2007 KishPrime went back in time and played against 2004 Ken. Man, I would've killed him. That makes me the better player, right? Have I settled the topic of KishPrime vs. Ken once and for all?

You'll see when 2022 KishPrime gets here next week and beats up on Hbox, Armada, and Mango, proving that I'm better than them, too.

 

[KishPrime]

Let me give you another reason why this question as phrased in the original post is silly. I'm going to give 2005 Ken a test about the 2008 Election, then I'm going to give 2011 Mew2King the same test after he wraps up his "Politics of 2008" master's level college course. I wonder who will do better? Oh look, Mew2King did better. I guess he's smarter than Ken.

 

[OverLord]

I really do think Ken would win against KishPrime. Even the KishPrime from 2022.

 

[KishPrime]

The analogy works as a hypothetical either way.

But you're wrong.

 

[OverLord]

Unfortunately we will never know.

 

[Mew2King]

id **** him. I'm not un-confident against marths. it is true my lack of confidence holds me back tho =(

 

[AlphaZealot]

Ken is the best. And yes, the OP is a loaded question that is meaningless. No one wants to know who would win 1v1 at their peak abilities since it is pretty clear what would happen. Heck, the 30th best player may beat Ken if they played today (as Kishprime notes). In 4 years (if M2K stops playing) the 30th best player would beat M2K.

No one wants to know the answer to that question. Everyone wants to see who was comparatively better for their times and who had a better career. Ken wins hands down.

 

[Sangoku]

Isai is the best. Why? Because he has always been (and still is obviously) the best (known) ssb 64 player, best game ever. Too bad he acts like a douche over the internet though. Get at me melee forum.

 

[Charlesz]

Ken is the best. And yes, the OP is a loaded question that is meaningless. No one wants to know who would win 1v1 at their peak abilities since it is pretty clear what would happen. Heck, the 30th best player may beat Ken if they played today (as Kishprime notes). In 4 years (if M2K stops playing) the 30th best player would beat M2K.

No one wants to know the answer to that question. Everyone wants to see who was comparatively better for their times and who had a better career. Ken wins hands down.

This post is the truth.

/Thread

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

id **** him. I'm not un-confident against marths. it is true my lack of confidence holds me back tho =(

however, you will still always be the Scottie Pippen of smash at very best.... never the Micheal Jordan.

Once again, Ken is and forever will be the MJ, the King, and the Emperor of all that his Super Smash Bros Melee. He was just the original great man... the mother ****er brought smash to survivor.

 

[Divinokage]

however, you will still always be the Scottie Pippen of smash at very best.... never the Micheal Jordan.

Once again, Ken is and forever will be the MJ, the King, and the Emperor of all that his Super Smash Bros Melee. He was just the original great man... the mother ****er brought smash to survivor.

Hell ya.. Ken knows about true glory. That's why he was a hero. He keeps looking for something higher to do.