Mew2King vs. Ken - An Age-Old Debate

[Blea Gelo]

there was more difference between ken and the comunity at his peak, than m2k and the community at his peak. but that does not mean m2k wasn't better at his peak than ken. it's that variates a lot between time, and the community's level of gameplay. ken made more difference, but m2k stood there with a lot harder community, he stoped playing that much just cause of brawl.

at their peaks, m2k would win.

 

[Anth0ny]

I still think Ken would **** he if played today. He's just too damn smart. top 16 at a major for sure.

However, he obviously wouldn't beat the god tiers (mango, m2k, peepee, etc.) You can't expect that if you don't play for 4 years...

 

[Slashtap]

Ken is the best. And yes, the OP is a loaded question that is meaningless. No one wants to know who would win 1v1 at their peak abilities since it is pretty clear what would happen. Heck, the 30th best player may beat Ken if they played today (as Kishprime notes). In 4 years (if M2K stops playing) the 30th best player would beat M2K.

No one wants to know the answer to that question. Everyone wants to see who was comparatively better for their times and who had a better career. Ken wins hands down.

A question isn't loaded unless it intentionally tries to push for a particular conclusion that isn't a direct conclusion of the answers itself. For instance, if I said that M2K is the better smasher, or more successful smasher, because of the responses to my question, then my question would have be loaded. But I didn't make such a leap in logic. You say "no one wants to know" as if the question is redundant and obvious. I agree. I feel like the OP question is dumb as hell.

But I made this topic because people literally debate about it, and I made it knowing that the question is so dumb that everyone would answer the same way (at least, those who answered my question and not their own questions). This way, I have the voice of the community against the naysayers who actually believe Melee is the kind of game where the meta changes very little over 3-4 years.

These naysayers are the ones who do generate the loaded responses. They take Ken's career success, and make the illogical extrapolation that it implies no one will ever be more skilled with Marth than he was. This is how they think, and this topic and its responses are my clear-cut refutation of that.

 

[AlphaZealot]

They take Ken's career success, and make the illogical extrapolation that it implies no one will ever be more skilled with Marth than he was.

No one ever has been more skilled with Marth than Ken.

And yes, Ken would lose in 1v1 vs M2K. Doesn't mean Ken wasn't and isn't the most skilled Marth.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

No one ever has been more skilled with Marth than Ken.

And yes, Ken would lose in 1v1 vs M2K. Doesn't mean Ken wasn't and isn't the most skilled Marth.

im curious as to what you mean by that
why do you still consider him the most skilled marth?
i mean yeah in his time he was, but even now?

 

[Van.]

I don't see how ken would make it out of pools at p5. Dart or G$ would one stock him i think. Todays marths just seem so much faster.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I think Ken could for sure make it out of pools at a major. The thing is, he's not just going to wake up tomorrow at a major tournament. If for some reason he went to a tournament he would certainly prepare. And Ken is a master of preparation when it comes to Melee. I as a Marth main have a ton of respect for my fellow midwest Marth player Dart, and a lot for G$ too, but I don't think it would take Ken long at all to surpass their level if he knew he was going to be competing in a National. Maybe a month.

I don't know if I can agree with AZ that Ken is the most skilled Marth ever. I can certainly say that Kens skill with Marth beyond the opposition more than any other Marth has (or probably could) accomplish.

Mew2King, since you posted here I want you to know that on a personal level I believe in you and your Marth to the max. You're one of my favorite smashers ever so I don't want you to think that I think any less of you because I stated that Ken could potentially beat you in a Marth ditto. I <3 U

 

[Theftz22]

Obviously the question of '07 ken vs current m2k is just ****ing ********. The real question is how many times better would ken be than m2k if he didn't retire?

 

[john!]

im curious as to what you mean by that
why do you still consider him the most skilled marth?
i mean yeah in his time he was, but even now?

old habits die hard.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I don't see how ken would make it out of pools at p5. Dart or G$ would one stock him i think. Todays marths just seem so much faster.

I really don't think G$ / Dart would beat an up to date Ken...

 

[Archangel]

The ground rules for this debate have never been established enough....3 things.

1. Do current rules/rulesets play a factor in this at all?

2. Do you want to compare careers or actual skills?

3a.Do you want an up to date ken practiced up super ken....hypothetically or a ken at his very best in the past?

3b. If you want up to date in part a. Then is it fair to M2K or anyone else if hypothetics are only applied to Ken? What if Brawl never came out so M2K only focused on Melee? What if he cared about it like he did a few years ago. What if Mango was born with 2 heads and 4 arms and could enter teams by himself.....i mean....how far is this going to go? Nothing has been established.

 

[Van.]

I really don't think G$ / Dart would beat an up to date Ken...

Theres no such thing as update ken. There is only '07 ken.

 

[Slashtap]

No one ever has been more skilled with Marth than Ken.

And yes, Ken would lose in 1v1 vs M2K. Doesn't mean Ken wasn't and isn't the most skilled Marth.

You're using an uncommon definition of skill then because in competition we most often use it to mean winning power. I don't think most people would use the word "skill" in a way where the would say the clear-cut loser of a match between two opponents is still the more skilled opponent. And at the end of the day, I'm going to be citing this topic against those who use the majority understanding of the word skill-the ones who claim 2007 Ken would beat 2011 M2K on the sole basis that he had a great career.

And to any other poster saying my question is really obvious: I know, I know. It's a lame question. But what's lamer is the fact that I had to ask it because there are people who don't perceive the obvious answer.

 

[KishPrime]

I think people are just interpreting the question differently. I sincerely doubt more than 1% of the population of the board - well within acceptable limits for internet message boards - actually think 2007 Ken would beat 2011 M2K. Most people giving that answer are interpreting the question to imply that Ken's skills are being transferred into a current-era metagame.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

If Ken's skills were re-transferred I think that he would have been on a higher level than M2k. M2k has too many confidence issues.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

not vs marths

 

[Archangel]

I believe that Ken is probably the most "accomplished" Smasher of all time. With that said I believe their are currently players that have never placed top 10 at a major event that could beat Ken(at his best) in a set now.

This isn't to say he couldn't get better then his previous peak.

'

So.....looks like I was right.

 

[The Star King]

LOL. You bumped a year-and-a-half old thread for a "I told you so?"

I'm not sure whether that's worthy of respect or shame.

 

[Archangel]

If you knew.....In the Marth section and virtually everywhere I've been more than bold about my thoughts on a returning Ken and I've been taking crap for about 3 years. I can Dig up more if I wanted to lol. At some point I compiled a list of 100 people who could beat Ken in today's game. I really got **** for that one....One of them was Tai, I don't think Toph or the peach who beat him were even on that list though tbh.

So I am going to take this time to say I was right and enjoy it. I don't care how anyone feels about it I don't care if I'm banned for life. I've earned this moment of I told you so and I'm taking it goddamnit!

 

[Claire Diviner]

I'll just make my post brief:

Given the current metagame, as well as the fact that Mew2King is still in practice, and add to the fact that M2K also has Marth dittos experience, I'm going to say Mew2King would win. I love Ken, but he has - as far as we know - been out of the competitive scene for goodness knows how long.

 

[Kite91]

M2k. Just watch east coast vs epic return

 

[Anand]

With that said I believe their are currently players that have never placed top 10 at a major event that could beat Ken(at his best) in a set now.

So.....looks like I was right.

Actually, not necessarily, because they played "rusty Ken" and not "Ken(at his best)"

 

[Twinkles]

Terrible, terrible thread, why even bring up this piece of **** again.

 

[Jockmaster]

is this serious? M2K would body Ken

sorry Ken, but you ain't got the drive or ability to play at the same level in today's meta

M2K at least has the ability, though not the drive most of the time

 

[R2_GP]

this would be so hype, but i kind of don't want this match to actually happen.... i don't want to see Ken get 3 or 4 stocked

 

[Jockmaster]

this would be so hype, but i kind of don't want this match to actually happen.... i don't want to see Ken get 3 or 4 stocked

Ken was pretty much getting 3-stocked in his second set against Tai...

Playing against M2K would just be sad ;_; I dont want to see Ken get exposed like that

 

[R2_GP]

i wish m2k would just go fox , most people would be mad and i'll be happy lol

 

[Boat Mode]

This is the most shameless and distasteful bump I've ever seen.

 

[Theftz22]

'

So.....looks like I was right.

The relevant question is how well 07 Ken would do in the 2012 metagame, not how well rusty 2012 ken would do in the 2012 metagame. The resolution of the former question still (and forever will) remain to be resolved.

I believe that Ken is probably the most "accomplished" Smasher of all time. With that said I believe their are currently players that have never placed top 10 at a major event that could beat Ken(at his best) in a set now.

#ken2012 #returnoftheking

 

[Archangel]

The relevant question is how well 07 Ken would do in the 2012 metagame, not how well rusty 2012 ken would do in the 2012 metagame. The resolution of the former question still (and forever will) remain to be resolved.



#ken2012 #returnoftheking

He clearly was not at his best. It takes more than 24 hours to get back into a game you have not played much in 5 years.

Still based on what I saw even if he wasn't rusty his 07 incarnation would have got 2nd seen instead of 3rd and might have beat placed 25th or 17th instead. Maybe through some magic got 13th. I don't think he would have made top 10 though there are simply too many very good players.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

The relevant question is how well 07 Ken would do in the 2012 metagame, not how well rusty 2012 ken would do in the 2012 metagame. The resolution of the former question still (and forever will) remain to be resolved.



#ken2012 #returnoftheking

this is truth.... all truth baby.

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh my goooosh I miss these threads

takin me back to 07....

 

[R2_GP]

Now days is you vs Mango lol

 

[Mike G]

is this serious? M2K would body Ken

sorry Ken, but you ain't got the drive or ability to play at the same level in today's meta

M2K at least has the ability, though not the drive most of the time

Pretty Much this. Ken is still a great guy even if he has a 2006-07 Marth. It was great to see him still put his old meta game to use too. It still does damage even to you technical kids today. LOL