Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Divinokage]

Dang this thread has been out of it for awhile.

Yeah, the match-up chart will always be in reference to the metagame and will keep changing as long as the metagame continues to change. It is pretty much an endless cycle.

Of course life goes on and you continue to improve. Evolution son! It's not just the change in game but in yourself too! =D

 

[N64]

goooooo yoshi!

 

[Stevo]

Of course life goes on and you continue to improve. Evolution son! It's not just the change in game but in yourself too! =D

Kage has the best posts

 

[x After Dawn x]

our current prime minister is kind of a troll, actually. when it looked like he was gonna be like, basically unanimously taken out of office early (which afaik has never happened before in canada) he closed parliament so no one could vote on it.

lol he wasn't going to be taken out of office. parliament demanded that he would release some kind of prison papers and he didn't want to so he shut down parliament during the olympics.

not so much troll as it is exploiting

 

[idea]

lol he wasn't going to be taken out of office. parliament demanded that he would release some kind of prison papers and he didn't want to so he shut down parliament during the olympics.

not so much troll as it is exploiting

that's not how i remember it...but meh, whatever. there's more than one reason not to like him.

 

[Druggedfox]

Matchup chart thread = political discussion...

Uhh, kage, what makes you say you've stepped up your falco game recently?

 

[Pi]

idk why it has to be updated at all... seriously.

ME EITHER


not like it effects how you're going to play the game or place in tournaments
you learn the combo's, you land the combo's, you edgeguard right, rinse & repeat

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Match-up charts are pretty personal. Player style and preference determines match-ups as much as character selection.

 

[otg]

A number of problems with making a matchup chart in this game include:

- The effect of the numerous stages on matchups
- Limited information for mid/low tiers
- No set standard or way to define matchups and matchup ratios
- Theory smash/scrubs posting
- Way too much talk about m2

 

[KAOSTAR]

lmao way too much mewtwo makes me smile.

m2 is just an interesting topic I suppose. not my fault people are willing to ignore the other 25 characters lol.

 

[otg]

It's more like you incessantly bring him up and get the conversations at hand ridiculous sidetracked. Not like they were going anywhere in the first place tho, so carry on.

 

[rhan]

Most low tiers aren't worth to waste the breathe on.

Mewtwo is on the top of that list.

 

[KAOSTAR]

It's more like you incessantly bring him up and get the conversations at hand ridiculous sidetracked. Not like they were going anywhere in the first place tho, so carry on.

actually if u look at the thread u will notice I most often responded to information posted I felt was inaccurate. and then sometimes a discussion followed.

thats kinda how the MU chart shoulda went, just with more characters.

the other times were worthless banter while nothing else was happening. and even those were often brought up by somebodies subtle trolling.

I said m2>zelda and ppl argued about it for over 200 posts.

kirby players said 40: 60 falco and people only laughed.

 

[V3ctorMan]

goooooo yoshi!

OMG THIS POST.......<----------- This freakin post!

<3

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You guys could have the MBR make a chart based on the collective opinions of top player and finish a MU chart based on that.

Seems like you could get accurate results from that seeing as top level players will be behind it.

 

[Pi]

You guys could have the MBR make a chart based on the collective opinions of top player and finish a MU chart based on that.

Seems like you could get accurate results from that seeing as top level players will be behind it.

may be able to do the high tier matchups
but low tiers will forever be disagreed upon

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

Where did this chart come from and why does it say Pikachu has an 80:20 advantage over Jigglypuff?

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Character_matchup_(SSBM)

 

[DippnDots]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com

that's the problem >_>

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

that's the problem >_>

Well I thought it would at least be a little accurate. The whole thing is ********.

 

[DippnDots]

It's been around for a while, I never knew who edited things, and it doesn't really get updated. Sooo.... yeah....

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

may be able to do the high tier matchups
but low tiers will forever be disagreed upon

I'll pretty sure they can work on an agreement to some extent.

And honestly I think it would be a lot more accurate than the community saying, Link>>>Roy and then people saying Link=Roy having people change it too often on a whim.

If the MBR did it they could get a more accurate match-up chart, imo.

 

[Toomai]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com

Don't listen to them; that's the old/outdated SmashWiki(a) that we don't really care if vandals overrun. http://www.ssbwiki.com is the new SmashWiki.

That said, don't expect to get any matchup info from there either, because we get it from here.

 

[Divinokage]

Matchup chart thread = political discussion...

Uhh, kage, what makes you say you've stepped up your falco game recently?

Idk.. I'm just that good. =P

 

[FoxLisk]

i dunno if i'd trust the MBR people anymore than the community. The MBR people are in a position to know the matchups better, but they're still heavily biased. Even very good players have that problem. If you are confident in a matchup and have good results in it, you're going to think it's better than someone of an equal level to you who is unconfident and has poorer results.

Or let's say you have like Darkrain, who is obviously very good against sheik. He's a top player and is in a position to know more than most of us, but he might still, based on his own results and experiences, say that CF-Sheik is like 50:50 (i'm making up people and numbers for the sake of argument, don't comment on them). But then you have a sheik pro like M2K or KK who is also very good at the matchup from the other side saying it's more like 60:40.

Or imagine the only people being involved in the project who main fox are all very good against falco and consider it 55:45 or 60:40. Maybe if, say, Mango or Dr. PP or someone else who's very good at it from the other side came in and stated his opinion they would argue it down to an agreement of 50:50, but what if that opposing viewpoint is not represented?

My point is that I don't see any particularly good reason to believe that the MBR would do a much better job than we would. They have a lot more knowledge and experience than the community at large, but they're still very biased individuals, and the same disagreement would result. And since 'matchup theory' as opposed to tournament results can't be studied scientifically, there's no way to force anyone to come to a consensus.

Again: I'm using people for the sake of example, none of this is intended to accurately represent anyone's opinions or be a stab at anyone. Just making a point.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The only difference is that the MBR doesn't have Doc King, KAOSTAR, ICG, and the other people who do nothing but side-track the discussion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i dunno if i'd trust the MBR people anymore than the community. The MBR people are in a position to know the matchups better, but they're still heavily biased. Even very good players have that problem. If you are confident in a matchup and have good results in it, you're going to think it's better than someone of an equal level to you who is unconfident and has poorer results.

Or let's say you have like Darkrain, who is obviously very good against sheik. He's a top player and is in a position to know more than most of us, but he might still, based on his own results and experiences, say that CF-Sheik is like 50:50 (i'm making up people and numbers for the sake of argument, don't comment on them). But then you have a sheik pro like M2K or KK who is also very good at the matchup from the other side saying it's more like 60:40.

Or imagine the only people being involved in the project who main fox are all very good against falco and consider it 55:45 or 60:40. Maybe if, say, Mango or Dr. PP or someone else who's very good at it from the other side came in and stated his opinion they would argue it down to an agreement of 50:50, but what if that opposing viewpoint is not represented?

My point is that I don't see any particularly good reason to believe that the MBR would do a much better job than we would. They have a lot more knowledge and experience than the community at large, but they're still very biased individuals, and the same disagreement would result. And since 'matchup theory' as opposed to tournament results can't be studied scientifically, there's no way to force anyone to come to a consensus.

Again: I'm using people for the sake of example, none of this is intended to accurately represent anyone's opinions or be a stab at anyone. Just making a point.

These kinds of problems are unfortunately unavoidable, I hope people can ignore bias of being good at a MU means it's a better match-up. Still I really have to trust what top level players say over how this was run previously when people could just say something get people to agree and people blindly followed it. Like with the MBR I can see them being a lot more informed and logical about it if they take the correct approaches to it.

Like the rep problem is an issue, but in most games top tiers get more rep than characters lower than them. You can still get some people who are competent with the character to contribute, and by competent I mean they have used them in the past and know the ins and outs.

Like they are issues that will show up, but I think the MBR can handle the issue through compromise and good research with the correct approach.

 

[KAOSTAR]

The only difference is that the MBR doesn't have Doc King, KAOSTAR, ICG, and the other people who do nothing but side-track the discussion.

umm excuse me lol. there was no discussion to side track.

plus at the time the m2 MUs were highly inaccurate. blame me all u want but I did nothing more than give my input, in order for the chart to be accurate low tiers are important too. where were all the fox marth and falco pros? its their fault for not stepping up

its like foxlisk said, without the opposing views u get no discussion.

ur jedi mind powers are just too weak.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sorry kao i dont even read your posts, you're on the same level as ICG in terms of being irrational and not making any sense.

 

[john!]

I read every one of ICG's posts, and enjoy them thoroughly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i've read a few, but i get to certain points in his posts where i just can't go on. Same thing happens for me with a lot of posts, its just consistent in ICG's

 

[john!]

It's like reading Shakespeare, you have to figure out wtf he's actually saying, but when you do there's a lot of good stuff there.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no i understand what hes saying. its the content that makes me stop; uninteresting.

 

[otg]

sorry kao i dont even read your posts, you're on the same level as ICG in terms of being irrational and not making any sense.

I second this.

Plus Kao didn't you have Sheik vs m2 as like 50/50? And marth vs. m2 as like 60:40? Then again you MAIN m2 right? So clearly you and only you know his matchups and are the only who's opinions matter right?

 

[t3h Icy]

umm excuse me lol. there was no discussion to side track.



plus at the time the m2 MUs were highly inaccurate...

Perhaps you should look up the definition of sidetrack?

Anyway, I have actually contacted a ton of players while I was making this, such as Hugs, Hungrybox, Armada, Mango, HDL, etc, and that did help somewhat.

I kinda wish I stuck to the advantage system throughout, but oh well, I learned a lot. Again, we do have the current chart still on the front page, but there are problems with it.

I've tried quite a few ways to approach this, but people are really dumb and it doesn't end up working out. At least SSB64 did. ^_^ And I would totally do the Brawl one too, but Rajam is leading it very well, so that's taken.

I think if I were to restart this, I might drop it to -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, just to get a rough chart down.

But enough rambling, someone else do it. =D

 

[x After Dawn x]

It's like reading Shakespeare, you have to figure out wtf he's actually saying, but when you do there's a lot of good stuff there.

like what? the content of his posts reminds me of the thought process of a 5 year old. i understand his posts but i don't understand the point of them, and this is all trolling aside

 

[KAOSTAR]

I second this.

Plus Kao didn't you have Sheik vs m2 as like 50/50? And marth vs. m2 as like 60:40? Then again you MAIN m2 right? So clearly you and only you know his matchups and are the only who's opinions matter right?

[Collapse=M2 MUs]fox.........20-80
falco.......25-75
falcon.....25-75
marth.....30-70 edited

sheik.......30-70 possible 65
peach.....35-65 possible 70
puff........35-65
ganon.....35-65

doc........40-60
mario.....40-60
luigi.....40-60
YL.........40-60
samus......40-60
IC.........40-60
pikachu....40-60
link.......40-60
GW.........40-60

mewtwo...50-50

DK.......55-45
yoshi....55-45
zelda....60-40
roy......60-40
kirby....60-40
ness.....60-40
bowser...65-35
pichu....65-35[/Collapse]That was my list. The list I posted most recently
[Collapse=MUs from discussion]
fox.........20-80
falcon.....25-75
Puff........25-75
peach.....30-70

marth.....35-65
ganon.....35-65

falco......40-60
sheik.......40-60
doc........40-60
mario.....40-60
luigi.....40-60
YL.........40-60
samus......40-60
IC.........40-60
pikachu....40-60
link.......40-60

GW.......45-55

mewtwo...50-50

DK.......55-45
yoshi....55-45
zelda....60-40
roy......60-40
kirby....60-40
ness.....60-40
bowser...65-35
pichu....65-35[/Collapse]
where falco and sheik were 60-40 and marth was 35-65 was taking into account what other m2 players said after discussing it in the MU thread created by teh Icy. I never said bc I main m2 only I know the MUs. Ive only told ppl that their depiction of the MU is inaccurate based on my experience and what I know about m2s abilities.

Are u saying that my list is shifted heavily in m2s favor aka biased and inaccurate?

@teh Icy-v. side·tracked, side·track·ing, side·tracks. v.tr. 1. To divert from a main issue or course

completing a MU chart was the goal. the longest of times it was left open for discussion with no direction or "leader" in terms of how the chart was completed. PPl just posted **** they felt was inaccurate. M2 MUs are part of the chart. As far as contributions go, I can contribute most in that area, when it came to other characters I felt there were other ppl who had more knowledge and could contribute more pertinent information than myself, so I didnt speak on other MUs as much. There was a time when they werent completed. Once they were completed I no longer had a need to "bring up" m2 or respond to any wild claims on MUs.

But I thought the advantage system was better and the process getting there was alot smoother. you could change it back. At least then there is something worth presenting.

and Im not getting on you. you tried really hard man. you came farther than anyone in a long *** time. It wasnt ur fault. Ppl like to throw blame around but most of those ppl didnt contribute anything other than saying the chart is wrong or somebodys opinion is absurd. ahem otg best doc motha ***ka lol. Really it seemed like ppl just didnt have anything to say, or when they did say something it was dumb.

PPl talk as if the low tier characters dont matter, hella ppl kept trying to do a chart from like ganon up, but the poiint is, a MU chart consisting of 26 or whatever characters needs input about 26 characters to be completed and accurate. cant get mad if low tier players contribute.

but I admit that I went off on a few ppl and it didnt really have much to do with the chart at all lol. but who doesnt troll every now and again.

 

[JPOBS]

lol at the last couples dozens responses.

ICG: the only person who can troll a thread without actively posting in it.

 

[TheGoat]

lol at the last couples dozens responses.

ICG: the only person who can troll a thread without actively posting in it.

Him, and mango.

 

[x After Dawn x]

and my axe!

 

[idea]

i just don't understand how you can misspell your own name. what is that? like what if it was "mew2kang"...or "mungo."